One More Reason to Test for Adenovirus

[trapieter]

stop writing so fast I wnt to respond to it all grrrrr! lol

quick response... FAB! post it out if it is the law, make that common knowlege on every forum and the states it stands in and make it a sticky! If that doesn't put pressure on then I don't know what will

 

[Denisebme]

you must have just pipped me to the post or I would have asnwered yours at the same time as mikey. I understand completely if you are awaiting results (I feel poo now ) , so I apologise for that. On the flip side (of your response) I do think it is great that you are updating it with adeno info either way. I don't really see that their is too much wrong with a personal perspective, we can all go and get information that has been passed on and added to in a cold fashion but only those that have been in your postion and that of wendy and tere can explain what it actually feels like to be put in that place. and even in professional scripts they tend to put in evidence that follows thier opinion and backs it up so it is not completly unbiased... I think you have seen that this month on this thread.

what is your standpoint... you agree with testing obviously as you are having yours tested? As long as it provides helpful information no probs and no warning needed. it is your site.

we are all here to support you may you need it when those results come in ok
you've done the right thing.

And why are their no affectionate smilies on this forum???

anyway this is a hug lol ><

jojo xx

LOL! Nice to meet you Jojo.
I have tested every dragon in my colony and I had one positive result come back out of 16 tested. That dragon has already gone to a new adoptive home where she can be an only child. She was very sickly when she was young and I struggled to keep her alive. Now she is a year old, and very small, but she's healthy and I'm sure she'll live out a long life with her new owners.
One side note to this. Izzy, the positive girl, had a very special place in my heart. She always will. As I'm sure any owner can tell you, sometimes having to work so hard to keep them healthy really bonds you to them. I did not give her up easily. Even worse, I did not give her up because I was afraid she would infect the rest of my colony. I gave her up because as a breeder, I feel that being honest is the correct thing to do, and I could not say that I was Adeno free if I still had that girl, even if I never intended to breed her.
I do believe that you can keep positive dragons and protect the rest of your colony. Izzy basically lived in quarantine conditions here for her whole life because she was obviously not thriving the way she should even though the vet had no answers as to why that was for a long time. She has always been bathed separate from the other dragons, in the kitchen sink instead of the tub or the soaking tubs I use for hatchlings. It is interesting that the one dragon she was in contact with for a short period is negative, but that dragon has also been removed from my breeding colony for at least the next year and will not be returned to it until she has several more negative tests come back. Not because I don't have faith in the test results, but because I'm just unsure enough that there is no possibility that she is infected that I'm unwilling to risk it.
Like most people in my position, I'm struggling with all the unknowns. Like most, I do feel that there is so much we don't know about this virus that I'm not sure I can make any broad, sweeping statements about it, I just know that at this point, I'm going to take Dr. Jacobsons opinion that animals that are known carriers should not be bred and I'm going to do whatever it takes to keep my colony free from it.

 

[Tere Salazar]

I just wanted to jump in here with another thing I learned just yesterday.
We do some rescue work and occasionally get a sick animal in to take care of. Yesterday morning I got a sick desert tortoise and had to make an unexpected emergency trip to my vet because I know pretty much nothing about sick desert tortoises. I had a chance to sit around for a little while after her office hours were over and she filled me in on one thing I didn't know.
In most states now, there are laws that regulate selling animals that might be sick or even carrying something that might make them sick. The short version of this is that in this state, you can be held responsible for selling any animal that carries a virus a disease that makes that animal sick or infects other animals. The exception in reptiles of course are naturally occuring parasites. You can not knowingly sell an animal that is sick because of parasites, but since they are naturally occuring, there has to be evidence that the animal was sold sick.
One of the arguments I've heard here, and presented to my vet, is that some people don't have easy access to a herp vet, but they have beautiful, thriving, healthy animals. If they breed these animals without testing and unknowingly pass Adeno on to others, what is their responsibility?
Her answer was pretty clear. The breeder can be held responsible, even if they don't know. Not only for refunding the sale price of the animal in question, but for vet bills for that animal and any animal that came into contact with that one if the owner decided to test or had veterinary issues with another animal as a direct result of the virus or illness.
She said that she has seen this a lot with IBD in boids, and as a vet, when she gets a new owner in with an obviously sick animal, she actually encourages them to contact the breeder or petstore to cover the bills, and if they are not responsive, to seek legal recourse. Not because she likes lawsuits, but she feels that in some cases, the only way to stop a petstore or breeder from infecting other animals is to hold them financially responsible for the results.

You know, Denise...you really shouldn't be giving me any ideas.

I think if I can ever get a free moment from work, I'm going to have to see how this would apply to sales done across state lines, as well as what the Statute of Limitations would be on such a law. Oh, and wouldn't that be a nifty bit of information to include on the website...when we finally get to do that.

 

[Denisebme]

You know, Denise...you really shouldn't be giving me any ideas.

I think if I can ever get a free moment from work, I'm going to have to see how this would apply to sales done across state lines, as well as what the Statute of Limitations would be on such a law. Oh, and wouldn't that be a nifty bit of information to include on the website...when we finally get to do that.

I know how it applies to animals whose POS (point of sale) is California. If I sell an animal to you in Arizona, and that animal later becomes ill, I am held to the standards of the state of California, which means that you would have every right to sue me in this state for any costs related to that animals replacement and/or care, as well as any other animals that became infected as a result of my "negligence". I use this term in quotes because I'm sure there are plenty of cases where breeders have sold animals that they had no idea were positive or even at risk. In this state, not being aware of a condition does not relieve you of responsibility.
One interesting thing that my vet brought up is that a lot of pet stores have receipts that say that that they are selling animals "as is". She said that is dubious protection, because it seems to be up to the judge in each particular case to decide if unseen conditions, like the presence of a virus, would apply.
She said that the ONLY sure protection for someone who decides for whatever reason not to test is to clearly post information about the virus and the fact that you do NOT test, so that the buyer is informed. At that point, the buyer has no recourse because they have assumed the risk.
Now, excuse the long post, but two other things came up when we were talking. The first was simple. I know in Izzy's case, she always had health problems so I knew she would never be bred, but some people have perfectly healthy animals that they do routinely check for known health issues. What happens if you do everything right, have no knowledge of Adeno, and you produce positive babies. The key is diligence, if a breeder can prove that they had no clue, and could prove that they took every step to produce healthy animals, chances are their liability would be limited. They'd still be responsible, but they wouldn't be negligent.
The other issue was very specific to my situation. I am concerned that not enough is known right now about this virus, so say I test and test, document my tests, and do everything I can to keep a clean colony, but still, against my best efforts, have an animal that I sell test positive after it has gone to a new home. My worry was that if I sold a beardie into a home where there were others, I could be sued if the animal came up positive from contact with another beardie. She said they could try, but the law was on my side in this case and they would have serious problems trying to link a positive test result to dragons from my colony that test negative.

 

[trapieter]

go tere! yea I was wondering how it worked there always seems to be a clause to these things womewhere, would be great to see how stern this law is.

First thing I can say denise is WOW... want to go into nursing? sounds like you'd make a great infection control nurse ... basically you knew something was up and you contained that girl so well that no others were infected not alot of people would have done that. And the caution with the other... I like your thinking. better safe than sorry.

as for your izzy, you did right by your customers and right by her too. how many people would have considered option three? You have given her to a good home where she will be loved and spoilt as if an only child. I think she had a special mum in you

This is probably going to sound strange but you'll understand in the end.
I work in a hospital on a surgical ward, it's the third wrung from intensive care and in the years that I have been their I have always found that those nurses/drs who have becone so confident and complacent in their roles are the ones who miss the most important details as they pass it off as something simple as to solve the problem. The best are those who have a bit of fear still, who like to double check because they will jump on anything that looks suspicious and with that will usually save someones life.

your right, you know nothing about the virus and so you are more vigilant about it. there is not enough information around yet and really breeders should not be complaicent, they will loose thier dragons through it. people shouldn't panic, they should follow the advice given by wentz and jacobson but they shouldn't pass it off as .. well what do they know?

Your attitude is correct and you should share it.

ps it's nice to have met you too

jojo xx

 

[CheriS]

One of the questions I have had about the testing both PRC and EM is what they use for a control standard, especially ones at the DNA blood level. At one place I was told it was a wax embedded sample that came from another University, pathed from a dragon that was positive for adenovirus and that also did a DNA sequenced on it. Another University I was told by a vet did their own DNA sequence on dragons that tested positive with PRC, EM and necropsy to get their control one. Okay that sounds pretty solid if in fact both locations had truly positive adenoviral particles and those were in fact the cause of the animals deaths or the virus that is pathogenic to the dragons.

Now something has come up with what I read on some of Wendy's links and also in an email up today that sends up a red flag. Wanting to be fair to all sides in the interest of the animal if this is at all possivel, I want to know if anyone else has heard this or can confirm it with their sources...... I was told that some doing the testing have concerns their test is so sensitive, that what they might be seeing are other animal's adenoviral particles and not the one(*S ?) that infect and are thought be to non benign to bearded dragons.

In other words that if a dragon tests positive, it might not be with the virus that affects bearded dragons and have caused deaths in some, but could be virus from another animal. This also makes me think of when Dr Wentz said the possibility exists that insects can be a carrier of this so..... could they also carry maybe another type of Adenovirus that is not pathogenic to dragons... not a bearded dragon virus at all ?)

Can anyone comfirm or dispel this with their sources? What I want to know is it possible the testing facility are seeing and reading any adenovirus that is non pathogenic to bearded dragons and not telling us that or is it possible it is SOME OTHER ANIMALS ADENO (human, avian, insect )type adenovirus passing though them>> IS that a remote possibility at all? I have not heard anyone else say this or mention anything about it, just that dragons might have more than one strain.. which no on knows for sure, so I think it is worth mentioning to everyone and having ALL ask their professionals about it.

I think if this is a possibility at all coming from the people doing some test, it should be shared with all, as this can have a real impact on breeders decisions what to do, who are getting positive results but not seeing any health issues at all (and that is some, certainly not all..... as we know many do have dragons passing away that are positive, although they deny it.) There may be nothing to this and it is not possible, but fetl it should be mentioned

 

[Denisebme]

go tere! yea I was wondering how it worked there always seems to be a clause to these things womewhere, would be great to see how stern this law is.

First thing I can say denise is WOW... want to go into nursing? sounds like you'd make a great infection control nurse ... basically you knew something was up and you contained that girl so well that no others were infected not alot of people would have done that. And the caution with the other... I like your thinking. better safe than sorry.

as for your izzy, you did right by your customers and right by her too. how many people would have considered option three? You have given her to a good home where she will be loved and spoilt as if an only child. I think she had a special mum in you

This is probably going to sound strange but you'll understand in the end.
I work in a hospital on a surgical ward, it's the third wrung from intensive care and in the years that I have been their I have always found that those nurses/drs who have becone so confident and complacent in their roles are the ones who miss the most important details as they pass it off as something simple as to solve the problem. The best are those who have a bit of fear still, who like to double check because they will jump on anything that looks suspicious and with that will usually save someones life.

your right, you know nothing about the virus and so you are more vigilant about it. there is not enough information around yet and really breeders should not be complaicent, they will loose thier dragons through it. people shouldn't panic, they should follow the advice given by wentz and jacobson but they shouldn't pass it off as .. well what do they know?

Your attitude is correct and you should share it.

ps it's nice to have met you too

jojo xx

I actually thought about nursing as a career when I was younger, but I have this silly little aversion to blood, so it wouldn't work to well.
We have a very good set up for quarantine because we do some rescue, and most the animals that have come in over the years have had health issues. Some of it is also the fact that both my husband and I have kept reptiles for over 30 years, we've seen the effects of various illnesses on different species, and we were hit pretty hard by IBD years ago. We learned a lot dealing with that particularly nasty virus, and that experience has us always reacting with caution when dealing with potentially transmittable illnesses. One of my dear friends has actually used the term "obsessive" when talking about my husbandry practices, but I work from home and my youngest child is 15, so I have the time to be obsessive about it.

One of the reasons I'm so against the finger pointing and fighting is because I firmly believe that even people working towards different goals can have common interests and a strong desire to figure things out for themselves and do the right thing. I would hope that as a community, we can at least respect the rights of people to have differing opinions.

 

[Denisebme]

One of the questions I have had about the testing both PRC and EM is what they use for a control standard, especially ones at the DNA blood level. At one place I was told it was a wax embedded sample that came from another University, pathed from a dragon that was positive for adenovirus and that also did a DNA sequenced on it. Another University I was told by a vet did their own DNA sequence on dragons that tested positive with PRC, EM and necropsy to get their control one. Okay that sounds pretty solid if in fact both locations had truly positive adenoviral particles and those were in fact the cause of the animals deaths or the virus that is pathogenic to the dragons.

Now something has come up with what I read on some of Wendy's links and also in an email up today that sends up a red flag. Wanting to be fair to all sides in the interest of the animal if this is at all possivel, I want to know if anyone else has heard this or can confirm it with their sources...... I was told that some doing the testing have concerns their test is so sensitive, that what they might be seeing are other animal's adenoviral particles and not the one(*S ?) that infect and are thought be to non benign to bearded dragons.

In other words that if a dragon tests positive, it might not be with the virus that affects bearded dragons and have caused deaths in some, but could be virus from another animal. This also makes me think of when Dr Wentz said the possibility exists that insects can be a carrier of this so..... could they also carry maybe another type of Adenovirus that is not pathogenic to dragons... not a bearded dragon virus at all ?)

Can anyone comfirm or dispel this with their sources? What I want to know is it possible the testing facility are seeing and reading any adenovirus that is non pathogenic to bearded dragons and not telling us that or is it possible it is SOME OTHER ANIMALS ADENO (human, avian, insect )type adenovirus passing though them>> IS that a remote possibility at all? I have not heard anyone else say this or mention anything about it, just that dragons might have more than one strain.. which no on knows for sure, so I think it is worth mentioning to everyone and having ALL ask their professionals about it.

I think if this is a possibility at all coming from the people doing some test, it should be shared with all, as this can have a real impact on breeders decisions what to do, who are getting positive results but not seeing any health issues at all (and that is some, certainly not all..... as we know many do have dragons passing away that are positive, although they deny it.) There may be nothing to this and it is not possible, but fetl it should be mentioned

I actually had this question too when I decided to use PCR testing. The testing we did was not blood specific, but also required a cloacal swab to test for shed. I was told that the blood tests alone will pick up any trace of Adeno, not just the virus that is specific to bearded dragons and can be spread. The swab is used to confirm the test is beardie specific if the blood shows positive results.
I would also caution anyone choosing to test through their vets instead of through Dr. Jacobson of the University of Ill to ask a lot of questions beforehand to make sure that the lab your vet uses can accurately test for this virus.

 

[Tere Salazar]

One of my dear friends has actually used the term "obsessive" when talking about my husbandry practices, but I work from home and my youngest child is 15, so I have the time to be obsessive about it.

Yeah...we probably should have traded names...and you be Obsession Dragons (before Adeno, that is). But then I would have had to change Cali Dragons...and Ariz Dragons just doesn't flow very well.

Cheri-

Fantastic information...but scary all the same. Are you referring to only the PCR testing, or could this be in relation to the fecals, as well?

 

[CheriS]

I would also caution anyone choosing to test through their vets instead of through Dr. Jacobson of the University of Ill to ask a lot of questions beforehand to make sure that the lab your vet uses can accurately test for this virus.

Denise, did you mean Dr Jacobson is it at U of FL or the testing at the University of IL?

Tere, any and all of the testing, I think that is a question that should be asked of all the testing locations and types. I have wondered about this lately cause I was thinking that Dr Jacobson has spend a decade studying IBD and really come a long way there, but, unless something has changed recently, they had not positively isolated which virus it is that causes that. They were down to a few virus.......So is there an isolate of the virus that has been indicated to be the cause of illness and death in some dragons? I had thought there was when they siad they had sequenced the DNA of it. But with some new infomation I am questioning that now

 

[Denisebme]

Denise, did you mean Dr Jacobson is it at U of FL or the testing at the University of IL?

Tere, any and all of the testing, I think that is a question that should be asked of all the testing locations and types. I have wondered about this lately cause I was thinking that Dr Jacobson has spend a decade studying IBD and really come a long way there, but, unless something has changed recently, they had not positively isolated which virus it is that causes that. They were down to a few virus.......So is there an isolate of the virus that has been indicated to be the cause of illness and death in some dragons? I had thought there was when they siad they had sequenced the DNA of it. But with some new infomation I am questioning that now

I Ooops, I meant to say Dr. Jacobson OR the University of Ill. My understanding is that Dr. Jacobsons at the University of Florida is performing the PCR tests, and the University of Il is performing the Fecal EM tests.

On IBD, according to my Merck, 3 strains of the virus have been isolated, so they have indeed come a long way.

 

[tammyaldrich]

information

I spoke with Lou Ann at the University of IL on 2/8/07 at 3:50pm eastern time by telephone. She said that the PCR is ultra sensitive and can pick up another species adenovirus, the PCR test can not differentiate between them at this time. We also discussed testing by PCR method at the University of IL if we can secure 20 tests per week and the rates should be around $30-$35. Please confirm the above conversation with Lou Ann at the University of IL at 217-244-1567.

Tammy

 

[Lucille]

One of the reasons I'm so against the finger pointing and fighting is because I firmly believe that even people working towards different goals can have common interests and a strong desire to figure things out for themselves and do the right thing. I would hope that as a community, we can at least respect the rights of people to have differing opinions.

This ought to be etched in stone at the entrance to this site.

 

[Neverland Dragons]

I emailed Lou Ann at the University of IL and inquired as to what the test standard was for adenovirus and mentioned that we were discussing this on the forum and would appreciate any information she could share regarding the fecal em testing to detect adenovirus. I also mentioned there being 4 different genus of adenovirus and what that could mean in relation to some babies having adenovirus and having die offs whereas some test positive and appear perfectly healthy without any die offs. I asked permission to post her response. Here it is:

Hi Wendy,


There are classes and families in virus just like in naming the animal kingdom. Some of the branches have been renamed in recent decades,


Virus are grouped RNA or DNA and broken down from there. Mastadenovirus is the mammalian adeno strains. Aviadenovirus is the strain in birds.


There are hundreds of strains, Dr. Jacobson told the group that there were many strains in the very beginning, so this is no surprise. More than one strain for the beardies is most probable, probably many.

Telling the strains apart, the closest you come is PCR, not all PCR is alike, what it tests for is dependent upon what the lab is set up for. How specific are they testing for. Say some lab somewhere is getting 100% positive, it could be they are testing for a marker that is something in common in all strains, say another lab tests and finds some negatives in PCR, perhaps they are testing for more specific strains, have a more purified marker they are testing for.

I'm not saying that is the case, but this is basic common sense in dealing with any laboratory testing on.... well ... anything! Especially when dealing with varying antigenistic site issues.

Control: I have positive adeno samples I look at all the time, as I have stated before this is a visual identification. When I started in Negative stain, I was tested by the virology lab by being given unmarked vials of known cultures where by how and what cell types were infected, it was known what virus was there. There are plenty of visual references, atlas' etc, and I've been looking at adeno for almost 20 years. My images are sometimes what is used for pathology board exams.

This test, as I have told many from the start, is a visual identification, and it does not tell you the strain. It is a test that has been done for many decades and is a standard in both human and veterinary medicine as a tool to assist viral identification.

If you are asking if one can tell by looking what strain, no, there are many many strains, something well known, and they all look alike, or close enough as no difference. This is an aspect of the test that just has to be accepted. The difference in the strains is at the molecular level, again no surprise. Is it easy to mix it up with another type of virus? No, it isn't, this virus, adeno, has fairly distinct crystalline arrangements that are unique to itself, and easy to tell from the artifacts and other materials in the specimen.

So if a pig has adeno and adeno is flying around an enclosure, and a dragon is in or near the enclosure, and eats something that gets contaminated by the pig adeno, will it still show up in the dragon poop. Possibly, probably not in great number if it does, it takes a certain number of particles / mm3 to be seen at all, so it would be a long shot, but if it is in great numbers, it's more likely to be not an accidental ingestion..... would be an educated speculation. Will it look like the same particle, yes, appearances are it would look like the same particle.

So that is the test limitations. As I've told others, there are some other positives to the negative stain EM test, and that is if one's beardie is passing other virus, I can see and report that as well.

Is PCR the holy grail, we don't know, it depends upon how it is set up and what it is set up for, and what quantitatively a positive means. Is it too sensitive , we don't know, there just has not been the work done out there to compare clinical history and the two testing methods over a large population or a decently long time. At least that is what I hear the experts saying. And again I must say, I'm not a Vet, not a reptile specialist, I do virology identification, but I'm not a PhD virologist, my job is to find it and
identify it, but I'm not trained to give official veterinary advice.

I have talked with one of the 2 people involved, they do PCR here, for generally $35/ sample on other things. If there was enough volume, it might be something they would consider here,but the owners and breeders WOULD have to work through a vet, not with them directly. If it would be set up, it would be no time soon, as this lab is so swamped to the gills right now.

I will tell you this, Dr. Jacobson is held in very high regard by all here, and any information he shares, or when he can, puts up his website that will include this topic, it's worth heeding what he says. If anyone has the specific species PCR well established, it's probably his lab.


Lou Ann

 

[techgirl]

I have been reading this post since the beginning. As the owner of 2 very loved dragons, I am all for testing. In fact, I just had my vet order the test kits for them today when they had their yearly physical. He was very curious to know why I wanted to test them and told them that I would like to know. I deworm my guys every 6 months, why not test them for adeno as well? Physically my babies are good. Hopefully when I get the tests done, they will be negative. I am on the fence on whether to breed them or not. My female won't be ready until next year. She's only a year old now. I know the time and expense that is involved. My boyfriend keeps telling me to do it. I told him that if I were to, then they would have to be tested. This way if I were to breed, at least I can be confident in selling healthy babies and providing documentation of such. My question is how often should they be tested for adeno? Is once yearly good enough?

 

[Denisebme]

I spoke with Lou Ann at the University of IL on 2/8/07 at 3:50pm eastern time by telephone. She said that the PCR is ultra sensitive and can pick up another species adenovirus, the PCR test can not differentiate between them at this time. We also discussed testing by PCR method at the University of IL if we can secure 20 tests per week and the rates should be around $30-$35. Please confirm the above conversation with Lou Ann at the University of IL at 217-244-1567.

Tammy

Holy Smokes, that's cheap.

 

[Denisebme]

I have been reading this post since the beginning. As the owner of 2 very loved dragons, I am all for testing. In fact, I just had my vet order the test kits for them today when they had their yearly physical. He was very curious to know why I wanted to test them and told them that I would like to know. I deworm my guys every 6 months, why not test them for adeno as well? Physically my babies are good. Hopefully when I get the tests done, they will be negative. I am on the fence on whether to breed them or not. My female won't be ready until next year. She's only a year old now. I know the time and expense that is involved. My boyfriend keeps telling me to do it. I told him that if I were to, then they would have to be tested. This way if I were to breed, at least I can be confident in selling healthy babies and providing documentation of such. My question is how often should they be tested for adeno? Is once yearly good enough?

You probably just hit on the most controversial topic surrounding this issue. How often do you test? I truly hope no one gives you an answer that is set in stone, because this is one area where people are going to have to make that judgement cautiously.
I can tell you what I plan to do. All my breeders have been tested and my first pairing is scheduled for this weekend. Kahli is my first scheduled female. Kahli will once again be tested the day after she lays her first clutch, her mate will be tested again within days of breeding. If they both continue to test negative, then I will not test them again until next year, just prior to breeding season.
Is doing the second test necessary? I don't know and the ONLY thing anyone can tell me is that stress may or may not be a factor in Adenovirus. Will I continue to test with this frequency? Again, I don't know, I'm flying by the seat of my pants here. There are days when I think I have a solid game plan, then I read a post or talk to someone new, and my plans change again. Will I continue to use PCR testing? I don't know. Will I feel foolish 5 years from now if its discovered that Adeno, like parasites, is completely unpreventable under certain conditions? No, I won't. I'll feel I did the right thing for me at the time. given what was known.
Someone called me the other day to pick my brain. I'll tell you what I told them. Be wary of hard fast facts right now, take it slow, learn as much as you can, and make an informed decision for yourself. I believe that testing is critical, but I don't think it offers all the answers I want or need. Hopefully, we'll continue to talk and share information about the status of our colonies, because our conversations about what is going on with our animals, particularly any changes in the Status of a negative dragon, can teach ALL of us about this virus.
One thing I know for sure, not just as a long time herp hobbyist but also as a person with a heridetary syndrome is that scientists can study stuff in labs for years, but a community that comes to together to share information can make things happen much, much faster.
My rare genetic disorder mostly effects connective tissue, but it wasn't until a few thousand of us came together on the internet that the actual DNA marker was found, and strangely enough, they also found much to their surprise that the disorder also causes Glaucoma and kidney disease, having this information has saved lives and vision. The same thing can happen with this virus if enough of us contribute to what is going on.

 

[puppytoes72]

wow,i just finished reading all of this thread.DACHIU,i think its discusting that you do not test your breeders for the virus!!no matter what excuses you have i believe its because it will cut into your profits too much(which will dwindle anyways once the word gets around that you dont test!)i was on your site and i also noticed that you dont use uvb!!!(on your growth chart page)and in you caresheet you state that"uvb isnt essential".are you kidding me???? whats the matter?will a $17 reptisun cut into your profits too? to all else out there:does anyone know which breeders supply petco and petsmart? thank you

 

[Denisebme]

wow,i just finished reading all of this thread.DACHIU,i think its discusting that you do not test your breeders for the virus!!no matter what excuses you have i believe its because it will cut into your profits too much(which will dwindle anyways once the word gets around that you dont test!)i was on your site and i also noticed that you dont use uvb!!!(on your growth chart page)and in you caresheet you state that"uvb isnt essential".are you kidding me???? whats the matter?will a $17 reptisun cut into your profits too? to all else out there:does anyone know which breeders supply petco and petsmart? thank you

My understanding is that most of them come from Sandfire. To be completely fair though, there are quite a few wholesalers out there that sell to petstores.

 

[puppytoes72]

ty for your response.i believe sandfire has adeno in their collection,am i right?i should be getting the test kit tommorow from lou ann.i really dont have a good feeling about this.