Bad Guy Our 'experience' with Elliott Maddux AKA Eweezyfosheezy

[Lucille]

I'm not trying to defend myself and I'm open to any and all criticism given to me because this is not at all ok by any means.

The first time I had received a package with free roam torts was over a year ago from a very well known and "high end" tortoise breeder. I was initially shocked by what I had seen when I first opened the box to find tortoises just crawling about, but they were all in perfect health so I didnt really have anything to say and I had no experience anyways with shipping babies before so I had no idea what the norm was. Maybe two months after that I had come to an agreement with a big reptile specialty pet shop to wholesale my sulcatas out to them and I was informed to ship the babies out free roam in the box. All arrived perfectly fine and I have since then shipped a few wholesale groups out to them with no problems.
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Your two references that you used to excuse your shipping practice are both anonymous. Could you please name both of them?

 

[robyn@Pro Exotics]

here is a link on a single tort shipped half-way properlyhttp://www.turtlerescues.org/shipping_turtles.htm

I know you mentioned the "half-way properly" part Tom, but I think it needs to be stressed again : )

THIS IS STILL POOR FORM.

The package in the link is protected from the bang-around aspect sufficiently, but shipping is an non-insulated box, as is shown in the link, is completely unacceptable (as well as against TOS).

A bunch of shipping peanuts do not provide anywhere near the insulation value of a box lined properly with insulating foam.

A shipper should be using an insulated box with at least 3/4" insulation, and enough packing material to protect the contents from tossing about in the box.

I don't think Elliott was being malicious in this shipment, but rather ignorant on how to properly package this type of shipment. Those tortoises need to be contained (and protected!) and the box itself needs to be smaller.

A position of ignorance doesn't change the negative result though, nor does it magically make everything better, especially the health of the animals.

This is a really tough situation all around. I really feel for the recipient, and most of all for the tortoises.

 

[Amelanistic Orca]

I know you mentioned the "half-way properly" part Tom, but I ...

For sure. I just have never seen what a proper 'tort lot' shipment would look like, I was real curious about that... the one I posted was way outdated and obvious flaws, but was close to what I would imagine a 'proper' tort shipment would look like.

I would love a picture of a 'real, proper' tort lot shipment, if you have one available Robyn. Do we? I ran out of time to dig online.

You mentioned like 'billiard balls.' That is a great analogy. Is there a custom egg crate type box insert for baby torts similar to pool ball casings? That would be a sweet idea. I'm sure it's done though...

I had heard of them being strapped down and what not, but busting nails off struggling is my concern there?

I think we all could learn something here?

 

[MFLuder]

Shipping young tortoises is actually very easy. The standard is deli cups (with air holes) with some type of substrate to partially fill the negative space in each cup and to give the tortoise some purchase during transit. In my experience as a shipper and receiver, the standard practice is one or two per deli cup with some slightly moist sphagnum moss. Sometimes two to a deli cup is ideal because they restrict each other's lateral movement. Since deli cups come in every size imaginable, the depth of each can be tailored to the tortoise being shipped. As you might imagine, a properly selected deli cup and well thought out arrangement of tortoise(s) and sphagnum will prevent movement even during extreme trauma to the outer box.

The bottom of the insulated box is then layered with some type of packing material (crumpled newspaper works well) and then the deli cups are stacked neatly inside. Taking care to leave some space between the deli cups and the side and top walls, more crumpled newspaper surrounds the cups, locking them in place. It's easy, cheap, and fool proof.

Finally, as necessary, a heat or cold pack can be affixed to the inner sides or top of the box depending on how one wants to manipulate convection.

Thanks again everyone for your thoughts, comments, and condolences. Truly, the tortoises are the ultimate victims here...

 

[Mackgc]

Elliott why do keep referencing past shipments that you received that were the same way? So you prefer " Monkey see Monkey do "?!

It doesn't take a genius to understand why you shouldn't ship " Free Roam " reptiles!
Make good on this and learn to SHIP reptiles proper!

 

[MFLuder]

Elliott has offered a full refund, which we have accepted. The money will go into ensuring the tortoises have the care and attention they need, and the people involved in the purchase will be refunded. I do believe, as others here have also sensed, that Elliott was not acting in an intentionally negligent manner. He has stated these were his pets, and when we were doing our research on him prior to this purchase, it was evident that this was the case. I am sure he did not want to see the tortoises harmed. He has apparently received shipments like this and sent shipments like this with success. Of course, that doesn't absolve anyone or change anything, but that does explain why he shipped like this. People learn from mistakes, and I believe that Elliott would never ship like this again. The tortoises had good growth (you can see this in the photo that I posted of the deceased sulcata), and this doesn't magically happen, so we do understand that Elliott knows how to raise a healthy tortoise.

I didn't realize when you click the 'red x' as an icon for threads that it puts the label "bad guy" (I thought it just demarcated bad threads from good threads), and this is now also sitting badly with me. I do not know Elliott other than from this transaction. While this was certainly bad shipping, I do think the term "bad guy" should be for people who knowingly scam others or who ship animals like this with full knowledge of the consequences. Judging by personal emails from Elliott to the society, I can't imagine that Elliott would ever ship like this again. I suppose it is a painful lesson learned for Elliott. It is a sad situation all around. I hate that we were a part of these tortoises' sufferings. I hate that we were a part of so much human suffering as well (ours and Elliott's).

I said this once before, and I would like to say it again, instead of this thread existing only to call someone a "bad guy", I hope it has opened the eyes of some of the people who may have read it (and not commented) and thought it would be okay to ship like this. If Elliott is able to redeem himself to other buyers in the future then that's a good thing for all of us. I do believe he is deserving of a second chance. If this turns out to be a freak occurrence in what should prove to be a career as a "good guy" for Elliott then I am glad at least that this thread exists if only to prevent other sellers/breeders from having to learn the hard way.

This is a young man who made an unintentional error and he's hurting bad right now. For the considerate way he has handled this and the absolute torture he's putting himself through now, we can certainly forgive.

 

[CCConstrictors]

Well, here's one dead. So, that's one dead, one dying, and one blind from an empty/bleeding eye socket (and 15 other question marks where only time will tell).

RIP little guy.

That is very sad. I hpoe the others pull through.