• In case most of you have not noticed, I made changes to the donation amounts as well as the durations for all of the paid membership levels. Things are winding down here, and this seems to be the most prudent way to deal with the "end of life" period of this site.

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  • Responding to email notices you receive.
    **************************************************
    In short, DON'T! Email notices are to ONLY alert you of a reply to your private message or your ad on this site. Replying to the email just wastes your time as it goes NOWHERE, and probably pisses off the person you thought you replied to when they think you just ignored them. So instead of complaining to me about your messages not being replied to from this site via email, please READ that email notice that plainly states what you need to do in order to reply to who you are trying to converse with.

Bad Guy Paul Moyer of Monster Reptiles in PA

jandsreptiles said:
Jose, we were obviously replying at the same time. Thanks for pointing out the Necropsy source that I worked so hard to find. It took me that whole 5 minutes but the OP claims to have spent hours to and couldn't find one. I believe you won't find anything in this world you don't want to find.
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Absolutely true man :yesnod: and I honestly think that this has become a :deadhorse thread...
 
jandsreptiles said:
As far as the Pest Strips go. I have been using them for 7 years and never have I had a single issue. They are hands down the best way to rid a might infestation when used correctly. Trust when I tell you Paul knows how to use them. I have spoken to him about the way he uses them. The pest strip is not the cause. But for those that feel I am wrong my previous post gladly gives a necropsy source. Show me I am wrong.
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bxjoon said:
Joe, I've used them for many years on my burms, retics and BP's and never had an animal die on me because of them.
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jandsreptiles said:
Exactly!!!! Myself, Jose, Paul and many others have been using them. That's 1000's of snakes never harmed by the pest strips.
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They're old school...they work, but the toxicity would make many hesitant to say they are "the best way". And just because you guys have gotten lucky, doesn't mean that no snakes have been harmed by those strips - I can think of a handful of people that I know personally that did have problems because of them. Were they using them "correctly"? Probably not; but the situation described in no way sounds like correct usage.
Now, I didn't see the animal, or how it was transported, but the description made it sound like a full strip was in the tote with the retic. It was reportedly not enclosed in any other container, and the snake was in contact with it. For all your experience with them, how many times have you done that?
I've used them (in the distant past), and they sometimes weep/run when they get warm; and even if it didn't get HOT, it could easily have been enough to cause toxicity if things were as described. Unfortunately, I don't know that there is any evidence that things were the way Angel claimed; which leaves me having to take his word for it, or continue saying that I don't know why the snake died. A necropsy wasn't done, so we won't know.

Does that mean that the seller isn't responsible? Nope. It means we'll never know whether he was or not....if Jesus started out cursing and making threats, which isn't a stretch of my imagination, then it's easy to understand ANY seller bringing communication to a halt. Nobody wants to deal with that crap, and nobody should have to....that doesn't mean that Jesus didn't have a legitimate complaint, it just means that he still hasn't learned to exercise self control & may have just shot himself in the foot.
 
scrammin said:
I wouldnt and im sure anyone I know would never do business with Mr. Moyer when it comes to buying/selling anything.
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Scrammin I see you've listed Angel as a friend. Don't forget that if you lie down with dogs, you'll rise up with fleas......
 
I have used whole pest strips in 41 qt bins with adult ball pythons without another container many times without a problem. I do cut small strips and place them in deli cups with holes for babies. The key thing to remember is to have NO water in the container or enclosure while using the pest strip. Maybe Jesus kept the pest strip in the retics enclosure and it contaminated the 7 bowls of water she drank. That could have surely killed her.

I tried to help the OP by offering a necropsy location despite his and his brothers past reputation. So I don't want to hear anyone saying we condemned anyone for their past post etc...

As far as the post stating no one pays $3000 for adult het albino tiger retic females anymore. Basically Jesus did by trading his animals willingly for her so that is yet another mute point.

The fact is the OP could have caused the death of the snake and that is why the seller request the necropsy be done. The almost impossible necropsy was only a phone call away. In my opinion from the sound of Jesus on the video I have to believe he had already discarded the snake when the original post was submitted so even though I worked my butt of for those long 5 minutes to find a necropsy location it to was most likely another mute point because the snake was already disposed of because he stated he didn't have a place to store it except for his $2000 fridge in his kitchen which he doubted she would fit in.

Is Paul a bad guy? In my opinion no. And yes I have dealt with him. Are Angel and Jesus bad guys I don't know as I have not dealt with either of them myself. Do they get hot headed and burn their bridges. YUP. Do they deserve the benefit of the doubt? Yes and I feel the members of the BOI did give them that.

The real individual who lost here is that beautiful Female Tiger Retic.
 
I'm really surprised that there are people that put Pest Strips in with snakes??? I've heard of putting them above cages, etc... But in with snakes? I would think under general circumstances that would be an instant grounds for refund... I would also hate to see the facility that was so clean that Pest Strips are standard protocol! WOW!!!!:shrug01:
 
Python Dreams said:
I'm really surprised that there are people that put Pest Strips in with snakes??? I've heard of putting them above cages, etc... But in with snakes? I would think under general circumstances that would be an instant grounds for refund... I would also hate to see the facility that was so clean that Pest Strips are standard protocol! WOW!!!!:shrug01:
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Where did anyone state it is standard protocol? I don't have mites in my collection but I like everyone else have had them atleast once. When you have hundreds of snakes and you discover mites and you realized your case of provent-a-mite must be defective you must turn to something else. I had a case of PAM "provent-a-mite" that just didn't work. I used it religiously until then. I could spray this batch directly on any insect and it did nothing. I became aware of the pest strips from another member of the herp community. I did some further research and testing before using it. As I stated I have never had a negative issue from using them correctly. You won't find anything negative about any animal I have produced and sold. There are 100's if not 1000's out there. I speak of my person experience. If you don't have any experience in a given matter I think the appropriate response if any given should be that you are giving your opinion. We all know opinions are like :censored: and we have one.

Just Saying....
 
Tom, you don't see it as much as you used to. I myself always used them when i was dealing with a lot of w/c stuff back in the 90's and early 2000's. We've come a long way in this hobby/business because (A) most animals are CB (B) most animals come from people's private collections. There are 2 ways you can take it, you can say "hey a pest strip?" or "hey this is a responsible breeder". Having an immaculate facility has nothing to do with precaution. If you responsibly put pet strips in with your animals you will have no problems. If Jesus had such a concern with the pet strip in question then he should not have made the trade, it was his decision at the end of the day.

99% percent of people here are always willing to help. However, come here with absolute or as close to absolute burden of proof. Come here correct, not popping off at the mouth or with threats and unfounded accusations. Oh yeah and that gets back to what what I said before about sh*&%ing where you eat.
 
bxjoon said:
Tom, you don't see it as much as you used to. I myself always used them when i was dealing with a lot of w/c stuff back in the 90's and early 2000's. We've come a long way in this hobby/business because (A) most animals are CB (B) most animals come from people's private collections. There are 2 ways you can take it, you can say "hey a pest strip?" or "hey this is a responsible breeder". Having an immaculate facility has nothing to do with precaution. If you responsibly put pet strips in with your animals you will have no problems. If Jesus had such a concern with the pet strip in question then he should not have made the trade, it was his decision at the end of the day.

99% percent of people here are always willing to help. However, come here with absolute or as close to absolute burden of proof. Come here correct, not popping off at the mouth or with threats and unfounded accusations. Oh yeah and that gets back to what what I said before about sh*&%ing where you eat.
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:thumbsup: :hurray::hurray::beer:
 
Personally, I do not like the idea of the pest strips. They can be toxic. However, it seems to me that the OP is more in to drama than anything else. The seller shouldn't have to put up with threats either. Not saying that Jesus doesn't have a case, but I would discontinue contact too. No one can know without a nercropsy.
 
And even with a necropsy, you can still have no answers. Unless the pest strip was ingested, it is very very very difficult to label a cause of death as simply being put in an enclosed space with a pest strip. Sometimes, you can get a good indication with a live patient based on blood gases and oxygen saturation levels, and so forth, but to my knowledge (being in veterinary medicine) that a necropsy will give a definitive diagnosis of results of demise is from pest strip (unless ingested, which is next non-applicable)
 
should say, "will NOT give a definitive diagnosis).

Other things can be ruled out and it be differential diagnosis from the necropsy, but it wont diagnose pest strip exposure
 
Very good point reticguy! Also, once threats and swearing comes in to play, I feel the dispute is over. You simply need more self control. When you are polite things can more easily go your way.
 
If I remember correctly, products of that nauture contain dichlorvos as their active ingredient. So if we look at the MSDS (see for example http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/insect-mite/ddt-famphur/dichlorvos/dichlor_prf_0388.html) and while it is true that since it is dead, it maybe hard to determine if it was the pesticide that killed the snake (since various aspects of cholinesterase inhibition can't be measured) we can look for symptoms consistent with poisoning by dichlorvos. I didn't see any indication in the provided information that the snake demonstrated any neurological issues which are one of the symptoms one would expect to see with significant dichlorvos poisoning....

Some comments,

Ed
 
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