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Pets Plus Lockport, Kick Brothers - (INFO)
- Thread starter liquidleaf
- Start date
liquidleaf
New member
Heh, I don't doubt there is B/S involved, though I don't smell it coming from the SPCA's direction.
reptilemike
Member
the only thing i can say on this is i was just in the upstairs of pets plus 3 weeks ago looking at a few animals, and walked the whole floor , and it is not what the news makes it out to be!! john and crew take good care of thier animals, what these dumb asses dont tell you is john gets stuck taking a ton of rescues from irresponsible owners who neglect thier animals and the folks at pets plus nurse them back to health and find them good homes. this whole thing is a crock of sh-t!!! this whole thing should never have happend they took animals that should never of been taken!! pets plus you are ok by me piss on those people who are trying to ban reptiles and take away our rights and freedoms to own reptiles. john if there is anything i can do to help you have my # .
mike schofield
mike schofield
RJBILBY
New member
Pets Plus
John was in Columbus yesterday and I purchased a nice little pastel female ball python from him (thanks John). I talked to him briefly (he is one of the busiest vendors at the show) and this seems to all have started from an employee they caught stealing and fired. As for the lizard skeleton it seems to have been an escapee that unfortunately never turned back up until it had perished. Sorry but when you deal with thousands of animals accidents happen. John says the reinspection is scheduled for sometime this week (they don't tell them exactly when) and hopefully they can put this behind them. I believe a lot of this is just sensationalism and the lack of the general publics (SPCA) knowledge of the proper care of reptiles.
John was in Columbus yesterday and I purchased a nice little pastel female ball python from him (thanks John). I talked to him briefly (he is one of the busiest vendors at the show) and this seems to all have started from an employee they caught stealing and fired. As for the lizard skeleton it seems to have been an escapee that unfortunately never turned back up until it had perished. Sorry but when you deal with thousands of animals accidents happen. John says the reinspection is scheduled for sometime this week (they don't tell them exactly when) and hopefully they can put this behind them. I believe a lot of this is just sensationalism and the lack of the general publics (SPCA) knowledge of the proper care of reptiles.
Chameleon Company
New member
Rick,
Thanks for the feedback. I am glad that John was able to keep up the show schedule.
I can't make excuses for anything seen in the video's etc. I do believe that it reflected the worst of what could be found, as that is the nature of the Press. They need a story, and the ability to say in advace "we warn you that some of the pictures are disturbing" does not drive people away from the tube ! Perish the thought !
Two "lessons" do jump out at me, although there are more than two to be had here:
1) If in the business, you need to run it by the numbers. Degrees of sanitation will vary day to day and week to week, which is not an excuse for poor sanitation. But having animals that may be illegal, or without proper permits, is a mistake for a business that has so much more at risk. I don't know that illegal animals was established here yet, although it was mentioned that the crocodile monitor may have needed a permit. But lacking a permit is a tangible violation that the authories can get their hooks into if it existed.
2) It does not surprise me that a "disgruntled" employee may have initiated this. Just one more reason to always be on the up-and-up, so that you do not have a vulnerability by which someone can "get-even".
Whatever the actual truth here, it likely lies somewhere in the middle. I am sure that Fred and John found ways to improve and learn from this. My experience is with Fred, as he has been the best of buyers and always a pleasure to deal with. I would not hesitate to do business with him again.
Thanks for the feedback. I am glad that John was able to keep up the show schedule.
I can't make excuses for anything seen in the video's etc. I do believe that it reflected the worst of what could be found, as that is the nature of the Press. They need a story, and the ability to say in advace "we warn you that some of the pictures are disturbing" does not drive people away from the tube ! Perish the thought !
Two "lessons" do jump out at me, although there are more than two to be had here:
1) If in the business, you need to run it by the numbers. Degrees of sanitation will vary day to day and week to week, which is not an excuse for poor sanitation. But having animals that may be illegal, or without proper permits, is a mistake for a business that has so much more at risk. I don't know that illegal animals was established here yet, although it was mentioned that the crocodile monitor may have needed a permit. But lacking a permit is a tangible violation that the authories can get their hooks into if it existed.
2) It does not surprise me that a "disgruntled" employee may have initiated this. Just one more reason to always be on the up-and-up, so that you do not have a vulnerability by which someone can "get-even".
Whatever the actual truth here, it likely lies somewhere in the middle. I am sure that Fred and John found ways to improve and learn from this. My experience is with Fred, as he has been the best of buyers and always a pleasure to deal with. I would not hesitate to do business with him again.
liquidleaf
New member
I hope that these issues can be traced back to bad employees - but as for the whole lizard skeleton thing - that doesn't explain why multiple clutches of eggs were left to hatch and rot. Yes, accidents happen, and if just a few of these issues had been present, it wouldn't have been a huge deal. However, seems that to the reptile folks who were present at the inspection noted far too many cases of animals in very poor condition to NOT justify seizing the animals. These are people who KNOW how wholesaling works, and know that rack setups are commonly used.
ReptileMike - what exact date were you in Lockport and witnessed the upstairs area? I'm sure the SPCA here, and possibly law enforcement, would like to know what you witnessed if criminal charges are filed. Quite a few people here have concurred that the conditions took more than a couple of weeks to get to the point that they were shown in the SPCA video despite the news sensationalism.
I find it very funny that people on the BOI will outright crucify an individual or small breeder for an apparently skinny or ill-shipped animal, but because the Kicks did not scam anyone and their show animals look good, the horrible CURRENT condition of a large number of their animals gets overlooked. People seem to get far more angry when someone is screwed out of money rather than when a large group of animals is found in horrible conditions. Money makes the world go 'round I guess though...
ReptileMike - what exact date were you in Lockport and witnessed the upstairs area? I'm sure the SPCA here, and possibly law enforcement, would like to know what you witnessed if criminal charges are filed. Quite a few people here have concurred that the conditions took more than a couple of weeks to get to the point that they were shown in the SPCA video despite the news sensationalism.
I find it very funny that people on the BOI will outright crucify an individual or small breeder for an apparently skinny or ill-shipped animal, but because the Kicks did not scam anyone and their show animals look good, the horrible CURRENT condition of a large number of their animals gets overlooked. People seem to get far more angry when someone is screwed out of money rather than when a large group of animals is found in horrible conditions. Money makes the world go 'round I guess though...
Chameleon Company
New member
Lauren,
The people in charge are responsible, not "bad employees".
To suggest "criminal" charges is a bit hasty, unless you know something we do not ? I would also assume that the "authorities" don't care if RepileMike saw it looking nice a few weeks back. Pets Plus attorneys might though !
Many of us do draw distinctions between between scamming, stealing, selling sick animals knowingly, not honoring TOS, ....... and what was reported by the press here. If you find it "funny" that I and others think that way, then have a good laugh on us ? Doubt it will be on Comedy Central though. It is possible that they endured an internal personal tragedy, upheavel, staffing collapse, etc, that could create this situation in a hurry (month or less). Many of us know that this is not representative of their longer term performance. Don't see anything being "overlooked" here, and think it likely the bad press has hurt them considerably already. You assume that "money makes the world go round" explains our views? I don't mean to undermine whatever motivates your views, and have no trouble if your opinion is to trash the Kicks over this. But you do seem to be in a hurry to question our opinions and motivations by sophomoric innuendo. I'd say it seems we have different takes on personal integrity vs. what has happened here.
The people in charge are responsible, not "bad employees".
To suggest "criminal" charges is a bit hasty, unless you know something we do not ? I would also assume that the "authorities" don't care if RepileMike saw it looking nice a few weeks back. Pets Plus attorneys might though !
Many of us do draw distinctions between between scamming, stealing, selling sick animals knowingly, not honoring TOS, ....... and what was reported by the press here. If you find it "funny" that I and others think that way, then have a good laugh on us ? Doubt it will be on Comedy Central though. It is possible that they endured an internal personal tragedy, upheavel, staffing collapse, etc, that could create this situation in a hurry (month or less). Many of us know that this is not representative of their longer term performance. Don't see anything being "overlooked" here, and think it likely the bad press has hurt them considerably already. You assume that "money makes the world go round" explains our views? I don't mean to undermine whatever motivates your views, and have no trouble if your opinion is to trash the Kicks over this. But you do seem to be in a hurry to question our opinions and motivations by sophomoric innuendo. I'd say it seems we have different takes on personal integrity vs. what has happened here.
liquidleaf
New member
Heh, I didn't mean "funny" in the humorous ha-ha sense. And my opinions are my opinions about the situation, just as you have yours. I do have my feelings about the response this has gotten on the BOI, and have expressed them.
Some people probably do think that "money makes the world go 'round". Do you? Probably not, and my statement was general and broad in nature, not aimed at you, Jim. Just frustration on my end for anyone who deals with animals that may have that attitude.
I said before, and I'll say again, I don't envy Pets Plus or the owners for the situation they're in, and I'm not laughing about it. I also don't sympathize with them from what I've seen, either. Those events did hurt and sicken me, and that probably comes out in my writing.
So I'll take my own advice and take some pepto and see what happens next.
Some people probably do think that "money makes the world go 'round". Do you? Probably not, and my statement was general and broad in nature, not aimed at you, Jim. Just frustration on my end for anyone who deals with animals that may have that attitude.
I said before, and I'll say again, I don't envy Pets Plus or the owners for the situation they're in, and I'm not laughing about it. I also don't sympathize with them from what I've seen, either. Those events did hurt and sicken me, and that probably comes out in my writing.
So I'll take my own advice and take some pepto and see what happens next.
djs27uro
New member
A lot of people in this thread didn't seem to understand that the vet for the Buffalo Zoo was there to determine the health of animals. His name is Dr. Frank Ridgely and reptiles were his specialty before working at the zoo. I'm glad he went because SPCA individuals are not always great at determining conditions for reptiles. For instance, a lot of people here are discussing the slide bins and how everyone using them would have to be considered cruel. HOWEVER, to my knowledge, very few, if any, shoebox snakes or slide bin snakes/leopard geckos were confiscated.
So, this wasn't simply a case of "SPCA's gone wild" trying to erradicate the owership of reptiles. Many people in the wildlife department (usually heads up exotics) enjoy reptiles quite a bit. They also didn't just go in because it was only the SPCA out to get them. This situation does not appear like it will influence the ownership of reptiles in NYS in any way.
I'll leave you with this and you can judge it how you want. The Saturday before the raid, the DEC officer investigating the potentially banned reptiles said to the store that the SPCA would arrive on Monday to inspect them. Two employees THEN left for the (I believe) White Plains show. Reptile Addicts was represented by these two people at the Sunday show. The SPCA didn't arrive until Tuesday and found conditions like they were.
So, this wasn't simply a case of "SPCA's gone wild" trying to erradicate the owership of reptiles. Many people in the wildlife department (usually heads up exotics) enjoy reptiles quite a bit. They also didn't just go in because it was only the SPCA out to get them. This situation does not appear like it will influence the ownership of reptiles in NYS in any way.
I'll leave you with this and you can judge it how you want. The Saturday before the raid, the DEC officer investigating the potentially banned reptiles said to the store that the SPCA would arrive on Monday to inspect them. Two employees THEN left for the (I believe) White Plains show. Reptile Addicts was represented by these two people at the Sunday show. The SPCA didn't arrive until Tuesday and found conditions like they were.
romad119
Member
hmmm...
djs27uro said:
RJBILBY
New member
Zoo
It is the belief of the American Zoological society that no private individual should own or posess any reptile or any other exotic animal.
It is the belief of the American Zoological society that no private individual should own or posess any reptile or any other exotic animal.
djs27uro
New member
I will agree with this, but the belief of the society is not necessarily represented in all of its employees. Ridgely, before becoming the zoo vet, was in private practice and specialized in helping and treating reptiles. He often gives talks at WNY herp society meetings and at yearly shows with no charge. I would be shocked to find out that he personally were against owning reptiles. He may have sold what he had, but at one point, he owned quite a few reptiles.
I know people who went to the store the day after the SPCA raid. Like the snake rack system, the somewhat crowded russian tortoise tank has been pictured often. However, none of these animals were confiscated. Why? No one could ask them if there were too many tortoises in that tank. At first, I was a bit peeved that they were not taken, as I'm a tortoise person and felt kind of bad. However, things were explained to me this way and I now agree. Heck, I visited the shop on the 2nd of July looking for inverts and a male russian was trying to reproduce. It's difficult to say they were suffering even though most people felt they were over crowded. My point is that not everything that simply tugged at the heart strings were confiscated by the shelter. They were modest in what they took.
Believe what you want. The stuff at the shelter is in pretty rough shape. Conditions seem to worsen as the value of the animal drops.
I know people who went to the store the day after the SPCA raid. Like the snake rack system, the somewhat crowded russian tortoise tank has been pictured often. However, none of these animals were confiscated. Why? No one could ask them if there were too many tortoises in that tank. At first, I was a bit peeved that they were not taken, as I'm a tortoise person and felt kind of bad. However, things were explained to me this way and I now agree. Heck, I visited the shop on the 2nd of July looking for inverts and a male russian was trying to reproduce. It's difficult to say they were suffering even though most people felt they were over crowded. My point is that not everything that simply tugged at the heart strings were confiscated by the shelter. They were modest in what they took.
Believe what you want. The stuff at the shelter is in pretty rough shape. Conditions seem to worsen as the value of the animal drops.
djs27uro
New member
"Conditions seem to worsen as the value of the animal drops."
I should have said, "In general...". There are notable exceptions.
I should have said, "In general...". There are notable exceptions.
liquidleaf
New member
Thanks for providing more details, David. I hope that, whatever happens to the business or the owners, that the animals involved improve in condition.
djs27uro
New member
They get in some really cool animals. I think most people that I've talked to just want to see some stuff get better care.
number1steakfan
New member
r2rhere
New member
dzoo said:
Not exactly accurate.
The USDA regulates our agricultural interests. This does not include herps.
The State Ags & Markets may be who you were referring to although it is my understanding that they only regulate the mammals, not herps.
As of August 1st, they have 36 charges against them.
djs27uro
New member
Although I don't have time to comment as completely as I would like, I feel the need to get this information out as soon as possible. I will follow up with a few other pertinent news articles, but long story short, their lawyer was arguing jurisdictional issues, a settlement was reached. Both sides appear to claim victory, so I guess both sides are happy.
Link probably won't work after a few days:
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20060825/1065940.asp
Buffalo News
SPCA drops charges against Pets Plus
By GAIL FRANKLIN
NEWS NIAGARA BUREAU
8/25/2006
Click to view larger picture
News file photoAnimals removed last month by the Erie County SPCA from Pets Plus in Lockport will be returned today.
LOCKPORT - Criminal charges against the owner of Pets Plus Reptiles and Exotics were dropped Thursday, and 87 animals seized last month will be returned to the store today under a settlement made with the Erie County Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals.
Both sides declared victory after City Judge William J. Watson accepted the terms of the agreement, which requires the store to keep a clean slate for the next six months and calls for the Niagara County SPCA to do quarterly inspections for the next three years.
"I do feel vindicated," said co-owner Fred Kick. "They came in with no cause, just to stir things up."
Kick's attorney, George V.C. Muscato, said the fact that the SPCA dropped the 36 misdemeanor counts of failing to provide adequate food and water for the animals proves that the allegations that have been made were false.
However, Erie County SPCA spokeswoman Gina Browning said the nonprofit is more concerned with the welfare of animals than in putting people in jail.
"Not only were we able to care for the animals and bring these animals back to health, but now there is a humane society that has the right to inspect four times a year for three years," Browning said. "Now, animals for the next three years can be safe. We see this as a victory."
Kick will pay the SPCA $1,350, which is half the cost the nonprofit has spent caring for the 185 animals it seized. The owner was ecstatic as he described the animals he will be getting back from the SPCA's Town of Tonawanda shelter.
"We're getting the lion's share," Kick said. "We're getting every snake, and most of the lizards. The SPCA is keeping the frogs and a couple lizards."
Muscato said when the SPCA raided the store, it took 185 animals that were worth $16,000, and the animals that are being returned are worth $15,500. Browning said the SPCA will keep 72 of the animals that are still sick, while 26 have died or been euthanized since the raid.
SPCA general counsel Becky Powell said she is confident the pet store will be properly inspected over the next three years because she has made arrangements with Niagara SPCA Executive Director Albert Chille.
"He'll send his staff and we'll give him the training and information he needs to do the inspections," Powell said. "Going forward, we'll have an informal working relationship."
When the state Department of Environmental Conservation responded to complaints about conditions at Pets Plus, the Erie County SPCA was called because the Niagara County SPCA said it didn't have staff trained to work with reptiles and amphibians.
Kick said a week before his arrest, his store was inspected by the Niagara County SPCA and nothing was cited.
Kick on Thursday encouraged anyone who doubts he has the ability to takes care of his animals to check for themselves. A sign in front of the business on West Avenue read "Thank you for all of your support."
e-mail: [email protected]
----------------
With all the animals confiscated, I guess a few got looked over. They reported to the news that all snakes were returned, which is not true. Four low value snakes remained at the SPCA. The shelter wanted to keep them due to their medical condition. Basically, anything of value was returned, as is reflected in their estimated values reported by Kick.
Link probably won't work after a few days:
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20060825/1065940.asp
Buffalo News
SPCA drops charges against Pets Plus
By GAIL FRANKLIN
NEWS NIAGARA BUREAU
8/25/2006
Click to view larger picture
News file photoAnimals removed last month by the Erie County SPCA from Pets Plus in Lockport will be returned today.
LOCKPORT - Criminal charges against the owner of Pets Plus Reptiles and Exotics were dropped Thursday, and 87 animals seized last month will be returned to the store today under a settlement made with the Erie County Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals.
Both sides declared victory after City Judge William J. Watson accepted the terms of the agreement, which requires the store to keep a clean slate for the next six months and calls for the Niagara County SPCA to do quarterly inspections for the next three years.
"I do feel vindicated," said co-owner Fred Kick. "They came in with no cause, just to stir things up."
Kick's attorney, George V.C. Muscato, said the fact that the SPCA dropped the 36 misdemeanor counts of failing to provide adequate food and water for the animals proves that the allegations that have been made were false.
However, Erie County SPCA spokeswoman Gina Browning said the nonprofit is more concerned with the welfare of animals than in putting people in jail.
"Not only were we able to care for the animals and bring these animals back to health, but now there is a humane society that has the right to inspect four times a year for three years," Browning said. "Now, animals for the next three years can be safe. We see this as a victory."
Kick will pay the SPCA $1,350, which is half the cost the nonprofit has spent caring for the 185 animals it seized. The owner was ecstatic as he described the animals he will be getting back from the SPCA's Town of Tonawanda shelter.
"We're getting the lion's share," Kick said. "We're getting every snake, and most of the lizards. The SPCA is keeping the frogs and a couple lizards."
Muscato said when the SPCA raided the store, it took 185 animals that were worth $16,000, and the animals that are being returned are worth $15,500. Browning said the SPCA will keep 72 of the animals that are still sick, while 26 have died or been euthanized since the raid.
SPCA general counsel Becky Powell said she is confident the pet store will be properly inspected over the next three years because she has made arrangements with Niagara SPCA Executive Director Albert Chille.
"He'll send his staff and we'll give him the training and information he needs to do the inspections," Powell said. "Going forward, we'll have an informal working relationship."
When the state Department of Environmental Conservation responded to complaints about conditions at Pets Plus, the Erie County SPCA was called because the Niagara County SPCA said it didn't have staff trained to work with reptiles and amphibians.
Kick said a week before his arrest, his store was inspected by the Niagara County SPCA and nothing was cited.
Kick on Thursday encouraged anyone who doubts he has the ability to takes care of his animals to check for themselves. A sign in front of the business on West Avenue read "Thank you for all of your support."
e-mail: [email protected]
----------------
With all the animals confiscated, I guess a few got looked over. They reported to the news that all snakes were returned, which is not true. Four low value snakes remained at the SPCA. The shelter wanted to keep them due to their medical condition. Basically, anything of value was returned, as is reflected in their estimated values reported by Kick.
liquidleaf
New member
Heh heh, "settlement" does not equal "found not guilty", and "dropped charges" does not mean "cleared of all charges". Their lawyer can spout all he wants, but at least locally, they have lost the business of those herp enthusiasts who saw enough to be disgusted.
Hopefully all of you show-goers will have something to think about. Some people don't care where their animals come from, but hopefully some do. The smiling face and pretty animals you see up front might not be indicative of the "complete story", at least people got a chance to see a bit of this business's dirty laundry. I hope they clean it up and keep it that way.
Hopefully all of you show-goers will have something to think about. Some people don't care where their animals come from, but hopefully some do. The smiling face and pretty animals you see up front might not be indicative of the "complete story", at least people got a chance to see a bit of this business's dirty laundry. I hope they clean it up and keep it that way.
Chameleon Company
New member
Liquidleaf writes:
I had the pleasure of talking to Fred at the Daytona Show this past weekend. He was very honest and forthright in our conversations. Everyone certainly has a right to an opinion, and a right to be cynical, and a right to smear. The settlement seemed fair. I did decide long ago to not take everything that the press tried to feed me verbatim. Cheers.
I had the pleasure of talking to Fred at the Daytona Show this past weekend. He was very honest and forthright in our conversations. Everyone certainly has a right to an opinion, and a right to be cynical, and a right to smear. The settlement seemed fair. I did decide long ago to not take everything that the press tried to feed me verbatim. Cheers.