• Responding to email notices you receive.
    **************************************************
    In short, DON'T! Email notices are to ONLY alert you of a reply to your private message or your ad on this site. Replying to the email just wastes your time as it goes NOWHERE, and probably pisses off the person you thought you replied to when they think you just ignored them. So instead of complaining to me about your messages not being replied to from this site via email, please READ that email notice that plainly states what you need to do in order to reply to who you are trying to converse with.

Price Fixing by Kingsnake Moderators

Ben,
Maybe KS misread or misinterpreted your ad. You emailed them asking for a clarification, and I can understand your frustration in not getting a reply. At the same time, you did have the option of rewording your ad to reflect about the same price range, to include the word "negotiable", as suggested by others. You made a choice to start this thread, now etched in perpetuity, with a rather poor choice of header IMO. I think it quite clear that if you had gone to equivalent set-prices, you would have been in-line with other vendors, and that whatever KS had in mind, it was not price-fixing. Jeff and I have gone our rounds, and we worked it out, but me thinks you owe him an apology on this one.
As for some of the other complaints registered here, KS's TOS and actions are highly geared towards zero confrontation between vendors. I am not saying that covers all complaints, but they are exceedingly consistent in that policy. Love 'em, hate 'em ... they are a tremendous resource.
 
To critical bill

I think your exactly right. However I decided to take a stand. Once again not being able to sell on Kingsnake wil not effect my bottom line anyway.

Thanks
ben
 
Ben,
It is certainly your prerogative to "take a stand" whenever you feel so moved. Two adages come to mind 1) choose the time and place of your "stand"; and more importantly 2) make sure you have the high ground. Your thread starter is shaky ground at best, and as I stated in my above post, whatever KS had in mind, it is highly doubtful that it was "price-fixing", or even a "restraint of trade", which is where applicable statutes would lie. If you had chosen a title closer to "Having problem with KS MOD .. what should I do?", you would have gotten any number of reasonable replies here saying "reword your ad as ...... ".

Now, here I am taking a shot at you, rhetorically speaking. In my eyes, you caught the "BOI fever" in over-dramatizing your claim in your initial post. Hope not to get the fur up on your back, and that you can move forward just fine from this.
 
Jim, I have to disagree with your opinions on the thread title. I for one see it as nothing more than an attempt at price fixing. Whether it be $.20 a gram, $2.00 a foot or $20.00 shipped, who the hell is Kingsnake to tell anyone how much they can sell their animals for. If you call up your local newspaper and say "I would like to sell a 98' Ford Taurus. It's in excellent condition and only has 30,000 miles on it. The price will be set at $100.00 The editor doesn't say "Ummm, that's to cheap, we can't print it." They say sure, no problem. How would you like to pay for your ad? That is what a classifieds section is all about.

The deleting of that ad was complete and total bullshit.

I also think your wrong with your "BOI Fever" comment. In my opinion Ben started a valid thread and it has plenty of meat on it's bones. I'm interested to see how all of this plays out.
 
Yep. This is a great thread. I won't be giving any classified service my money if they are going to tell me how to price my items. I hope others will post their experiences with this advertisement discrimination.
 
I wonder if BOI fever is contageous? LOL

I think that there was numberous ways this situation could have worked out in which jeff would countinue to sell me a membership and I would continue to half heartedly post on KS.

However the "reasonable" price just really really irks me for some reason. I don't know where or why but it just really irks me. Maybe because it is a reasonable price? Maybe just the thought of answer 200 replies from 15 year olds asking to see ever single one individually photoed with exactly the prices? Maybe its becuase my ads worthiness should be based upon my standing as a seller(becuase I have seen some great ads by the scummiest scumbags). Or Maybe your right I wanted to jump up and down and holler some.

Either way they deleted my account, I will probably never see the refund, and a few future customers will be missed.

Oh well.

thanks
ben cole
 
We would both agree that KS is a different entity from your local paper .... LOL. No problem with the disagreement ...... or whatever motivates KS .... just a disagreement in the best way to navigate it. It doesn't take much rocket science to understand that a "stand on principal" here may be the proverbial "win the battle, lose the war" scenario, aka a dilemma.

Ben, sorry to hear that your account is gone. And I appreciate your acknowledgement that if you had to do it over again, it is possible it would have been done differently ... I am paraphrasing, but think it consistent with what you said. I cannot argue your reasons for angst here. I have blown a gasket or two, justifiable or otherwise, in my KS dealings before. Lawyers made good money, and if Jeff is reading this, I hope he is laughing. My belief is that Jeff is not at all content with the thread title, and I can understand that. I also believe he is pretty receptive to a request for reinstatement after 30 days, unfortunately providing for a correction in the thread title, given in the form of a retraction.
The use of the word "reasonable" in pricing guidelines opens up a giant legal can-of-worms if you choose to effectively debate it. I do not think KS's intent with the word is to "price-fix". It is hard for many to differentiate between layman's arguments and legal arguments. Layman's arguments are free here, while the legal arguments are pricey, and are not here ! I could probably write a decent list of reasonable scenarios that Jeff is trying to legitimately navigate using that word. I cannot discount that it may have been mistakenly applied here, but I don't know that. I think Jeff loves the reptile business. He has done well by it. If your hope was to truly resolve that word, do you feel like spending $10-30K to do so? Doubt it. In the meantime, you have been given choices. There are often differences between "principled" stands and "pragmatic" stands. Many posters here are not yet in that arena. I appreciate your sense-of-humor ... my belief is that all such fevers are contagious :)
 
Ben,

You were on the high ground. Kingsnake has no right what so ever to tell you that your prices are too low. And that is what they initially pulled your ad for, you were not charging enough money to suit them. Regardless of how they interpreted your ad, they were trying to tell you how to price your animals. I dont see how that can be interpreted any other way.
 
I looked through their rules for classified ads. It states:

"All ads must have a realistic price or price range listed."


20 cents/per gram is only half of the what I think is needed to make a price in the context of the classifieds. If you aren't also providing the actual weights of the snakes specificially being sold then there is no price in the ad at all. If you are not going to give the actual price in the ad even in the convoluted manner you want to do it then it means the ad gets pulled. How can a person determine what the actual price of the animal you are selling if you aren't giving them all the information they need to do the math?? Price per gram AND the weight of individual snakes are both needed to determine the cost of the animal you are selling.

Adrian
 
Chameleon Company said:
Ben,
It is certainly your prerogative to "take a stand" whenever you feel so moved. Two adages come to mind 1) choose the time and place of your "stand"; and more importantly 2) make sure you have the high ground. Your thread starter is shaky ground at best, ......
Click to expand...

Interesting perspective, but here's another old one.. "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck....."
You can't ignore that "KS" probably could have done a better job softening the "big brother" image they appear to portray. Regardless of the legalities, on the surface, it makes little sense and looks ill-conceived. It also furthers the image that they care little about some/many vendors.
 
Well if that is in their terms of service then I guess you are agreeing to accept them if you are going to advertise there. Right or wrong they are a private entity and have the right to make their rules as they see fit. Just like Rich does here.
 
See what I get for posting before reading the entire thread..... and I have never flipped people crap for doing that before. :)
 
Point taken Tom, and I cannot argue it. Adrian makes a very good point as well, and a very astute point. If there is one thing that I admire about KS, it is that they are exceedingly consistent IMO. I think that we all have to allow that it is possible that someone made a snap decision, mistake, etc, although that is only offered as speculation. I can see them taking 30 seconds to look at an ad, without a specific assigned price, possibly reacting to a complaint from some other entity who reported it, and deleting it. High ground or not, Ben "upped the ante". I think that the only "favoritism" that KS shows is in their own economic self-interest, and that makes sense to me. We all face disagreements (sometimes true misunderstandings ... imagine that !) where we choose to escalate rather than de-escalate, and where a do-over is sometimes wished for in hindsight. Jeff and I tangled over restraint-of-trade issues, spent well over $10K between us on attorneys, and I hope he is cool reading this. We worked it out on the floor of the 2005 Daytona show, and despite our each having a valid opinion, we got it behind us, stopped paying attorneys, and moved on.

What is cool here in the last 10 posts or so is that the opinions are sincere and not full of nonsense. Some vary from mine, but all are soundly based.
 
Sammy, I'm laughing a good one !

Well if that is in their terms of service then I guess you are agreeing to accept them if you are going to advertise there. Right or wrong they are a private entity and have the right to make their rules as they see fit. Just like Rich does here.
Click to expand...

I have no desire to piss-off Jeff. We have disagreed, but I also cannot deny him his due. In all frankness, while KS is a private entity, and the Libertarian Party not being in power, the TOS and actions of KS do sometimes fall under the realm of "restraint-of-trade" statutes. Jeff and his attorneys are more than familiar with this minefield. While statutes do apply, in 99% of the scenarios that KS would face, his (Jeff's) concerns would be in civil actions, and not those of some zealous DA, etc. Point being, they would be worked out long before they reached the Supreme Court, but still at considerable expense to the parties involved.

In the end of it all, my belief is that the thread title over-reached, and if I were Jeff, I would feel it unfair. I might also tweak my TOS, but I am not on Jeff's board-of-directors. I think Jeff's request was reasonable, even if you have to provide your own Vaseline. But the decision is ultimately Ben's to make, and the views here have been pretty damn good !
 
Well, they just removed my ad. Looks like they have now changed their TOS since this thread started.

Here is the ad that was up there.
I am trying to raise funds for an albino BP so this huge girl is being
listed.

She feeds on f/t weekly, is tame, sheds clear, and is a proven breeder.

She is just over 2000 grams right now and is putting weight back on
nicely since dropping.
This is one beautiful, large female ball python.

Priced at 25 cents per gram.

Shipping is via Fed Ex overnight and is a flat rate of $50
Click to expand...

Here is their email after removing it.
Dear Sir or Madam

Your recent classified ad entitled "Proven Female Striped Ball Python -
Pics Inside" has been removed due to a violation of our Terms of
Service.

Excerpt from the TOS:

Must list price by dollars, not per gram. Must list an actual price
for the animals.
Click to expand...
 
LOL! That's great! I guess you have to calculate the animal's worth and post the "total price" for those of us who aren't so good at cipherin'! LOL!

I guess that will help the less intelligent buyers.
 
Steve,
Thanks for putting that here. Seems they have identified a need to clarify, and kudos to KS for doing so, and making the improvement. Not to make too much of a metaphor here, but it is baseball playoff time, and I love baseball! What the batter and pitcher want most from the umpire behind home plate is consistency. Agreement is not always an option, but lets hope for predictable expectations.

Ben, it seems that this thread, and your complaint, got some action. However, I am not justifying your thread starter, for I am pretty sure in my criticism of it.

Someone stated earlier, and I think it was Wes, but do not lose sight of the enormous economic clout of the KS Classifieds. Jeff created that, and it wasn't overnight. Its his baby, and there isn't a close second. Ben, if you were a corporation, with a board of directors, facing the issue that you did, the board would look at two things. What's the ethical position here ? What's the economic position here ? Is there any common ground before we sell our souls :). There was, and is.
 
SPJ said:
Looks like they have now changed their TOS since this thread started.
Click to expand...

As I have no desire to visit their site to confirm this, is it safe to assume that their TOS includes the right to change it at will to suit their actions? Do their existing customers have to acknowledge these revised terms prior to placing new ads?

Just curious.
 
Not sure Mike.

The "no per gram price" was never their before.
I listed the weight in grams and the price per gram.

I was watching the ads and saw that the prices went from a low of 18 cents per gram to a high of 27 cents per gram. I priced this one towards the higher end because she is nice looking and proven.

I guess they are going to make the new TOS retroactive since my ad had been running for a few days prior to this thread.
 
Well, to me, after seeing your ad, and then seeing that they said that you can not list price by grams but by dollars, then how was this not understood to begin with? And, if this is the actual ad that started this whole thing to begin with, is the term " price fixing " that Kingsnake is being accused to even appropriate to begin with? Are we jumping the gun a little too quick on this?

If I am reading this correctly, and I am open to being wrong, then if I am seeing this right, wasn't this a bit premature to use the term " price fixing ", since saying a snake is " just over 2000 grams " does not completely negate an ACTUAL price as what Kingsnake required in their ads to begin with?

Just playing the devil's advocate for a sec, that is all.
 
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