SPJ
Well-known member
Here is the TOS. Am I missing the part that says the price must be in dollars? I don't see it.
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Responding to email notices you receive.
**************************************************
In short, DON'T! Email notices are to ONLY alert you of a reply to your private message or your ad on this site. Replying to the email just wastes your time as it goes NOWHERE, and probably pisses off the person you thought you replied to when they think you just ignored them. So instead of complaining to me about your messages not being replied to from this site via email, please READ that email notice that plainly states what you need to do in order to reply to who you are trying to converse with.
Price Fixing by Kingsnake Moderators
- Thread starter bcherps
- Start date
SPJ
Well-known member
I guess this is where they say they can amend the TOS at any time.
Wraith
New member
See, now here is a good example above of why I could see a KS mod pulling the ad.
25 cents per gram and your snake is "just over 2000g"
You are not giving an actual weight -- only a guesstimate of the snake's weight therefore a person cannot determine what the price of that snake really is... therefore there is no price in the ad. just over 2000 grams is not an actual weight when pricing by the gram. You have to get specific if you want to price that specific. "just over 2000 grams." What exactly does "just over" mean? is the snake 2001g, 2005g, 2010g, 2100g, 2200g or what...???? There is a difference between $200.25 (2001g) and $550.00 (2200g). It's way too easy to rip someone off if you aren't going to state specifically what the animal is going to cost up front. How can I know you will be honest enough to not give some story that the snake put on a sudden growth spurt/weight gain between the time the ad was placed and when I inquired about the animal?? Pricing per gram means listing an actual weight so that people can do the math up front rather than playing a guessing game with your potential customers and you'd have to stick to that amount even if the snake sudden gained weight for whatever reason. I personally wouldn't mind having to do the math in a pricing method such as that, but I DO want to know what I am dealing with weight wise.. not trying to guess what your idea of 'just over' or whatever.
Adrian
SPJ
Well-known member
2009 grams to be exact.
I guess the wording was just too vague.
I guess the wording was just too vague.
Chameleon Company
New member
Mike,
I am laughing with you on this one. The only recourse from an existing subscriber, outside of emails, BOI, etc, would be in a court of law. Regardless of who had the legal high ground, they would need the money to want to pursue it. You know this, and I am only putting it here since I have embraced the argument here of late. KS would probably have a legal obligation to refund the balance on anyone's account if the TOS were changed, and a subscriber said they wanted out because of it. If someone wanted to spend a bunch of money, they may even be able to compel KS to honor the TOS at the time of their subscription for the duration of their subscription, but who would spend the money to win such a point? Even the Courts will frown at the filing of such cases, as they want to see reasonable showing of damages to the complainant before they certify a claim.
Steve, as I mentioned earlier with regard to a post by Sammy, KS is not immune to state and federal statutes in how they word or apply their TOS. However, if you thought you identified, or were the victim of, a statute violation regarding the enforcement of KS's TOS, you would likely have to mount a a significant and pricey legal challenge in order to prevail. Unless you are a millionaire with an attitude, its not the best choice to make.
Its seems to me, at least, that KS's position here is not to stifle commerce, or show favoritism, or to price-fix. I do not even see those motivations on the radar. They want things as neat as they can get them. While no system is perfect, they do keep it neat.
I am laughing with you on this one. The only recourse from an existing subscriber, outside of emails, BOI, etc, would be in a court of law. Regardless of who had the legal high ground, they would need the money to want to pursue it. You know this, and I am only putting it here since I have embraced the argument here of late. KS would probably have a legal obligation to refund the balance on anyone's account if the TOS were changed, and a subscriber said they wanted out because of it. If someone wanted to spend a bunch of money, they may even be able to compel KS to honor the TOS at the time of their subscription for the duration of their subscription, but who would spend the money to win such a point? Even the Courts will frown at the filing of such cases, as they want to see reasonable showing of damages to the complainant before they certify a claim.
Steve, as I mentioned earlier with regard to a post by Sammy, KS is not immune to state and federal statutes in how they word or apply their TOS. However, if you thought you identified, or were the victim of, a statute violation regarding the enforcement of KS's TOS, you would likely have to mount a a significant and pricey legal challenge in order to prevail. Unless you are a millionaire with an attitude, its not the best choice to make.
Its seems to me, at least, that KS's position here is not to stifle commerce, or show favoritism, or to price-fix. I do not even see those motivations on the radar. They want things as neat as they can get them. While no system is perfect, they do keep it neat.
SPJ
Well-known member
Doesn't bother me.
I just relisted it at $500.
In case you are wondering that is roughly .2489 cents per gram.
I just relisted it at $500.
In case you are wondering that is roughly .2489 cents per gram.
Mike Greathouse
Reptilian Dreams
Chameleon Company said:
I'm all for keeping a system neat. But as an astute businessman, wouldn't you try and find a way to temper that with some good old fashioned customer service? One line emails dismissing your account are not what I would consider appropriate business practices.
Customer service is something that has been lacking at Kingsnake for quite some time. It's easy to say that they're big with deep pockets and have much more important issues to deal with, but that doesn't excuse their actions.
The bottom line is this: In my opinion, they have outgrown the people that made them what they are.
I seriously doubt that any one of us would even consider treating our customers the way that Kingsnake has treated many of theirs.
Again, in my opinion, people need to look past the dollar signs and take a stand against this type of treatment. Then and only then will the people at Kingsnake get the hint and correct their behavior.
bcherps
New member
Wow, went to dinner and had 3 pages of post pop up.
To the Cham Company, I definately agree with you. I will not spend thousands of dollars fighting this, its not worth it to me for what I make off kingsnake. 90% of my self produced animals are sold in litter lots to larger wholesalers, and about 80% of my buy to resell animals are moved at shows by word of mouth and 10 years of doing shows.
I would have completely and utterly forgotten about the whole ad removal if Jeff or his mods had just talked to me like I was a valued customer. Instead they chose to skip the neat answer of please price it with a total amount, chose to ignore a fuller explaination of what reasonable meant, and went straight to threats with better retract and apologize of were pulling your account.
I copied the entire TOS this morning as soon as the pissing match started, and no where does it say no price per gram. If it had been there then I would have been sunk from the get go.
Either way, I loose a little money my account was worth(I doubt I'll actually get the refund), and Jeff looses a customer. I'm sure we both are in common though that we don't care about that loss. At this point I don't value Ks as a useful tool and Jeff doesn't care that I have been a long time customer, or until last week when I traded in my old truck was a walking/driving billboard for him. I have KS shirts and KS bumperstickers that get driven and walk around Gainesville daily. Again I would have loved to work it out, but as soon as Jeff got the email from the mod that I was problematic he went right to the threats with no regard to my position.
As far as the title "price fixing". I knew it was illegal, and I knew it would bring out the clubs and guns quickly. But when given no response or explaination about the "reasonable price" quote that is the only thing I could use as a title, becuase they have never given me any other reason as to why my ad was pulled. All I wanted was someone to listen a little and inform me as to what they wanted.
As far as keeping Kingsnake neet. Does this mean that Flex Watt vendors must now price heat pads per article, and sell them at a price related to what the pre-packaged heat pad vendors are selling. Does this mean that the people selling chlorohexadine, and Nolvasan now must sell by the bottle and not the gallon to be in line with the stores selling it by the ready mixed bottle? IMHO I think Kingsnake should spend more time getting rid of scammers and scumbags than worry how peoples ads are worded. But it was brought up that it is Jeff's baby and it is a private company so l guess he is entitled to run it how he sees fit. IF he had comeback and pulled my account for being an ass, wasting his time, keeping the same personal account from years ago while I am a business now, then fine I am banned. But the reasonal quote still doesn't sit easy with me, and he has not called or emailed since cancelling my account proving he doesn't care try and resolve the issue.
I am very very pleased that this thread is 15 pages and we are still fully on topic, without internal bickering amoung the participants!!!! Is that a 1st?
To the Cham Company, I definately agree with you. I will not spend thousands of dollars fighting this, its not worth it to me for what I make off kingsnake. 90% of my self produced animals are sold in litter lots to larger wholesalers, and about 80% of my buy to resell animals are moved at shows by word of mouth and 10 years of doing shows.
I would have completely and utterly forgotten about the whole ad removal if Jeff or his mods had just talked to me like I was a valued customer. Instead they chose to skip the neat answer of please price it with a total amount, chose to ignore a fuller explaination of what reasonable meant, and went straight to threats with better retract and apologize of were pulling your account.
I copied the entire TOS this morning as soon as the pissing match started, and no where does it say no price per gram. If it had been there then I would have been sunk from the get go.
Either way, I loose a little money my account was worth(I doubt I'll actually get the refund), and Jeff looses a customer. I'm sure we both are in common though that we don't care about that loss. At this point I don't value Ks as a useful tool and Jeff doesn't care that I have been a long time customer, or until last week when I traded in my old truck was a walking/driving billboard for him. I have KS shirts and KS bumperstickers that get driven and walk around Gainesville daily. Again I would have loved to work it out, but as soon as Jeff got the email from the mod that I was problematic he went right to the threats with no regard to my position.
As far as the title "price fixing". I knew it was illegal, and I knew it would bring out the clubs and guns quickly. But when given no response or explaination about the "reasonable price" quote that is the only thing I could use as a title, becuase they have never given me any other reason as to why my ad was pulled. All I wanted was someone to listen a little and inform me as to what they wanted.
As far as keeping Kingsnake neet. Does this mean that Flex Watt vendors must now price heat pads per article, and sell them at a price related to what the pre-packaged heat pad vendors are selling. Does this mean that the people selling chlorohexadine, and Nolvasan now must sell by the bottle and not the gallon to be in line with the stores selling it by the ready mixed bottle? IMHO I think Kingsnake should spend more time getting rid of scammers and scumbags than worry how peoples ads are worded. But it was brought up that it is Jeff's baby and it is a private company so l guess he is entitled to run it how he sees fit. IF he had comeback and pulled my account for being an ass, wasting his time, keeping the same personal account from years ago while I am a business now, then fine I am banned. But the reasonal quote still doesn't sit easy with me, and he has not called or emailed since cancelling my account proving he doesn't care try and resolve the issue.
I am very very pleased that this thread is 15 pages and we are still fully on topic, without internal bickering amoung the participants!!!! Is that a 1st?
Chameleon Company
New member
Yes it is !! Again, I fully sympathize with your original frustration Ben, and I believe others have documented a change in the KS TOS that is likely due specifically to your situation. I say "Bravo" to both you and KS for closing that loophole in understanding.
And Mike, you are quite right. Whether it be KS or other venues, Fauna included, there is a noticeable decrease in customer attention as customer $ enlarges with many. It sucks, but at the same time, we have both seen countless times where the decision to make something a BOI thread has turned molehills into mountains, and this is another such instance IMO.
Frankly, when I saw the initial thread starter, my anticipation was that Ben would lose his account without some backtracking. Time for me to shut up.
Powderfinger
New member
Look at the bright side, Ben...
Now you qualify for one of the "Banned by KingSnake" t-shirts that Jeff was joking about selling at Daytona next year!!!
Now you qualify for one of the "Banned by KingSnake" t-shirts that Jeff was joking about selling at Daytona next year!!!
bcherps
New member
I was already thinking about a banner behind my booth.
thanks
ben cole
thanks
ben cole
Lloyd Heilbrunn
Member
Mike Greathouse said:
About a year ago I posted a comment about the archaic forum software,and got an immediate outraged response from Jeff about how much work it had been to get such good "custom" software.
I responded with how about something where you can read a whole thread at once,and that recognizes you without requiring logging in every time.
He acted like he never heard of such
, I suspect a lot of the non functionablity is based on the desire to maximize mouse clicks to rollover the ads.....jaxom1957
New member
Wraith said:
Your math is faulty. The difference between 2001g and 2200g is $500.25 compared to $550.00. About $50, not $350.
dberes
New member
The irony of KS saying BCHerps can't sell reptiles by the grams is kinda funny if you really read the first sentence of their TOS:
Doesn't BCHerps pricing fall under a price range? Since he listed his ball pythons from 80 grams to 600 grams if i'm not mistaken. That by definition is considered a price range.
Dictionary.com's definition of "range=1. the extent to which or the limits between which variation is possible: the range of steel prices; a wide range of styles." There are 45 others to go with this definition. He is well within KS's TOS with his post.
SPJ posted KS's TOS and they still do not say anything about having to post an exact dollar amount if I read it correctly. If they are still changing it, I do not see how they can terminate BCHerps account for following their current contract. It sounds like a breach of contract by KS to me.
KS telling BCHerps to put a reasonable price on the snakes the first time around is price fixing. Think about it. Why did MKR get kicked off KS? Two big time reptile breeders (I know who they are, but won't say) who are also big time KS advertisers got him booted, because of the cheap prices. That is price fixing.
Yes, KS is a private entity, however, I feel they are in the wrong here and breaching their own contract. Not to mention it is a conflict of interest when they tell their users how much they need to sell their reptiles for... Or in better words, they are trying to keep their advertisers happy who pay the big bucks so they don't have to worry about other breeders under cutting their prices. Gotta keep those advertisers happy! Forget the little people is the motto I am currently seenig with KS.
Later,
Drenton Beres
Doesn't BCHerps pricing fall under a price range? Since he listed his ball pythons from 80 grams to 600 grams if i'm not mistaken. That by definition is considered a price range.
Dictionary.com's definition of "range=1. the extent to which or the limits between which variation is possible: the range of steel prices; a wide range of styles." There are 45 others to go with this definition. He is well within KS's TOS with his post.
SPJ posted KS's TOS and they still do not say anything about having to post an exact dollar amount if I read it correctly. If they are still changing it, I do not see how they can terminate BCHerps account for following their current contract. It sounds like a breach of contract by KS to me.
KS telling BCHerps to put a reasonable price on the snakes the first time around is price fixing. Think about it. Why did MKR get kicked off KS? Two big time reptile breeders (I know who they are, but won't say) who are also big time KS advertisers got him booted, because of the cheap prices. That is price fixing.
Yes, KS is a private entity, however, I feel they are in the wrong here and breaching their own contract. Not to mention it is a conflict of interest when they tell their users how much they need to sell their reptiles for... Or in better words, they are trying to keep their advertisers happy who pay the big bucks so they don't have to worry about other breeders under cutting their prices. Gotta keep those advertisers happy! Forget the little people is the motto I am currently seenig with KS.
Later,
Drenton Beres
FunkyRes
Greenwich mockingbird
Lloyd Heilbrunn said:About a year ago I posted a comment about the archaic forum software,and got an immediate outraged response from Jeff about how much work it had been to get such good "custom" software.
I responded with how about something where you can read a whole thread at once,and that recognizes you without requiring logging in every time.
He acted like he never heard of such
The logging in is annoying, that is just a simple issue of proper cookies.
But I actually like the threading aspect.
It's more like a newsgroup than a web forum though.
handsomeRob
New member
Just out of curiosity, why would it matter to kingsnake what a breeder sells his animals at price wise? Do they get a cut or something? As far as them suddenly changing their TOS, that in my opinion is somewhat lowdown. thats like seeing a new hdtv at walmart with a price tag of $25. By law, they would have to sell it to you for that price. there can t be any "oh we made a mistake. we're going to correct that now. " sure if they wanted (again i dont see why) a set range for an animal then i guess since its a private site (yet publicly supported and carried) they can do that. but what they should have done was let him have his ad, change the TOS, and inform him of the policy change saying his ad will remain on the site until sold after that he will need to abide by the new rules as set forth in the updated TOS. just my 2 cents.
Seamus Haley
Big Game Hunter
handsomeRob said:
I *suspect* but am not certain... that the rule was put into place more for ads going the other direction. Something to cut down on people simply using the classifieds as an alternative photo-sharing system and listing animals which were not actually for sale. Or to eliminate "joke" ads from people who are, again, not looking to sell whatever they've posted. Just a guess of course, seems like there might have been some worthwhile motivation for the policy since illegitimate ads detract from real dealers and waste a buyer's time...
But, like so many well intentioned things, in the hands of someone with little intelligence or adaptability (Having run into PHWyvern and a few of the other KS mods in other places, I'm not real inclined to consider several of them all that bright) it can quickly go very bad. Then you get random idiot mod telling a customer one thing... customer takes it to the "Boss" as it were and someone's left with a decision to make between quiet, nondescript but long term customer and openly disagreeing with and countermanding their own staff... Although it's hardly the first time Jeff and the KS staff have gotten their undies in a bunch because someone criticized them on another forum, so the hardline response to any disagreement isn't unanticipated or unusual.
As with many situations where the offender is larger and has more resources at hand than the offended, this allows them to take advantage of their position, probably avoiding a legal tangle, and stomping on the smaller guy instead. Where is the ethics in that? Sounds like a bully to me.Chameleon Company said:
That's something to be really proud of isn't it?
handsomeRob
New member
ok. so i guess im not the only one to notice how screwed up ks is. so why do people keep going there?
bcherps
New member
People keep using kingsnake becuase of the volume of traffic.
Thanks
ben cole
Thanks
ben cole