Price Fixing by Kingsnake Moderators

[Mooing Tricycle]

My Question..

I also believe he is pretty receptive to a request for reinstatement after 30 days, unfortunately providing for a correction in the thread title, given in the form of a retraction.

What i want to know what this guy has to hide? If his site is so great, and theyre not "price fixing" or what have you ( whatever they feel like calling it).. whats he got a problem with then? why is he so worried about his image? or the sites rather, because of course, hes got little to do with it now, right?

Sounds like somone might start running with their tail between their legs in due time...
why wasnt a post made here to defend themselves either? ( if it has, i havent gotten to it yet in the thread)

If hes got NOTHING to do or very little to do with the Site and how its run now, why's he even bothering to email? is it somone else?? whys he still running the site then? shouldnt somone more dedicated be on that sort of job?

Ive never truly liked kingsnake, the format is a pain to navigate and the pictures in the ads are way small. i sit fairly far back from the Compy, and so its a pain when you have to sit all up close to read those ads. And, all the text is a pain to have to read through too, that and i just like fauna better! My business lies here with fauna. Rich has worked his butt off for us here, and i have to appreicate that!

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Doesn't bother me.

I just relisted it at $500.

In case you are wondering that is roughly .2489 cents per gram.

thats just brilliant! thank you! ( you should put that in the ad just to get em goin... hehe)

 

[Chameleon Company]

Tom O. writes:

Originally Posted by Chameleon Company
Mike,
...... If someone wanted to spend a bunch of money, they may even be able to compel KS to honor the TOS at the time of their subscription for the duration of their subscription, but who would spend the money to win such a point? .....

As with many situations where the offender is larger and has more resources at hand than the offended, this allows them to take advantage of their position, probably avoiding a legal tangle, and stomping on the smaller guy instead. Where is the ethics in that? Sounds like a bully to me.
That's something to be really proud of isn't it?

Perhaps, but my response was to a situation posed by another poster, and it had to do with the generic tweaking of TOS that occurs anywhere, to include here at Fauna. In almost all situations, the easiest and most prudent thing to do is go with the adjustment, or take your business elsewhere. I don't see anything KS has done here as "bullying".

As stated by many, KS is the best marketing portal available anywhere. Jeff built it. Their TOS will not please everyone, to include the tight protocols by which they manage their forums. Others like it that way. It was Ben's decision to make regarding this thread, but considering the ease with which I think he could have adjusted his ad, rather than begin a thread that was destined to close that portal to him, some of us see the decision to handle it in this way as being "penny wise and pound (dollar) foolish", or "cutting off your nose to spite your face".

Sorry Ben, not trying to beat you over the head here. If we were drinking buddies, I would have counseled against this thread is all, for the reasons indicated.

 

[FunkyRes]

What i want to know what this guy has to hide? If his site is so great, and theyre not "price fixing" or what have you ( whatever they feel like calling it).. whats he got a problem with then? why is he so worried about his image? or the sites rather, because of course, hes got little to do with it now, right?

Sounds like somone might start running with their tail between their legs in due time...
why wasnt a post made here to defend themselves either? ( if it has, i havent gotten to it yet in the thread)

He's worried about his image because it is his business.
I'm guessing he has not participated in this the thread because mud slinging at a website that is in competition with his could be very bad.

Don't read anything into their lack of response here, that would be presumptive.

If hes got NOTHING to do or very little to do with the Site and how its run now, why's he even bothering to email?

How much he has to do with his site is a statement reported by someone else related to a different issue in a different part of the site, the forums.

is it somone else?? whys he still running the site then? shouldnt somone more dedicated be on that sort of job?

Delegation is very common. As to why he responded to this, price fixing is an extremely serious charge. I believe that's a charge of a federal crime.

Ive never truly liked kingsnake, the format is a pain to navigate and the pictures in the ads are way small. i sit fairly far back from the Compy, and so its a pain when you have to sit all up close to read those ads. And, all the text is a pain to have to read through too, that and i just like fauna better! My business lies here with fauna. Rich has worked his butt off for us here, and i have to appreicate that!

which has nothing to do with price fixing.

 

[Mike Greathouse]

As stated by many, KS is the best marketing portal available anywhere. Jeff built it.

I have to disagree.

In my opinion, Kingsnake is not the best marketing portal - just the biggest.
There is a very big difference there, which has been my point throughout this thread.

Their system is antiquated and their customer service is almost non-existant, even confrontational to some.

Once people come to the realization that they do not have to take this kind of abuse to sell their animals, things will begin to change.

No business (especially an on-line one) can survive long term without embracing the new technologies that are presented to consumers on a daily basis. Additionally, no business anywhere will survive long-term if it treats their customers as if they do not matter. It's simply a matter of time.

Kingsnake will eventually have to change their attitudes or die.

 

[DISCERN]

"Sorry Ben, not trying to beat you over the head here. If we were drinking buddies, I would have counseled against this thread is all, for the reasons indicated."

I agree with Chameleon Company.

And in my opinion, since it was just a clear case of the TOS of Kingsnake being violated on the starter of this thread with listing dollar amount with grams, this whole thread was uncalled for and the term " price fixing " has nothing to do with this situation and was not used it the proper context. It's that simple. It is all illustrated when the starter posted his ad and then Kingsnake's response.

The other issues of bad customer service, etc., is a whole other subject.

Just my opinion.

 

[Chameleon Company]

MIKE, I stand corrected ...

but only because the word "best" is quite relative .... LOL

Mike G. states:

I have to disagree.

In my opinion, Kingsnake is not the best marketing portal - just the biggest.

By "best", I meant IMO the one most likely to generate the greatest number of responses to an offer of sale

As for the technologies involved .... I'm going to have to defer becoming an expert there to one of my kids ... or my next life.

Good post Funky Res !

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

He's worried about his image because it is his business.
I'm guessing he has not participated in this the thread because mud slinging at a website that is in competition with his could be very bad.

Don't read anything into their lack of response here, that would be presumptive.

Well if hes that worried, he should be here explaining himself and his actions. otherwise, he should quit while hes still ahead. that or the mod/s who removed his ad should be here explaining, and explaining why theyve been doing these sorts of things to other people as well.

as for the mudslinging comment...I dont think thats true at all, people are able to post here with a mature and reasonable additude. Why would it be mudslinging if he actually addressed the issue maturely? whos calling names here, and whos downright accusing him of being some horrible horrendous thing? theyre only deleted ads and posts... he chose to cancel the Op's account, and ignore the issue completely after a post on the BOI was made.
how REASONABLE is that? Sure posting on the BOI might have been a step in the wrong direction, but the OP was more than willing to change his ad and do the nessicary things to fix this problem before it happend. before this happened.
I will read into their lack of response here because somone posted a reasonable ad, god Jack for answers when it was removed and he asked why, and then because he made a post here about the situation, (and it is a situation thats been going on for some time it seems), got his account banned/removed. Thats some great customer service right there!!!
Hes obviously reading this, so why the heck shouldnt he be posting? If its his business he should explain his reasonings. Hes just bringing it on himself at this point if hes not going to try to fix the situation.

What ever happened to the phrase "The customer is always right?" sure there are lines that shouldnt be crossed, but he could have addressed this issue much more professionally.

How much he has to do with his site is a statement reported by someone else related to a different issue in a different part of the site, the forums.

Actually the Exact Quote was from Mike Greathouse. and from what i got from it, it was not specific to any part of the site at KS. Mike mentioned his use of the forums at the time in the post sure... but what Jeff Said to him was not specific to ONLY the forums. it was from what ive gathered, a General overall take on the site itself. that would be the meaning of "Day to Day Operations"
Heres the Quotes:

Jeff Barringer has very little to do with the day to day operations at Kingsnake.

*Explaining the situation inbetween*

He responded immediately, but made it clear that the mods were in control and that he had no involvement with the day to day operations.

So from what Mike has stated (sorry to put you on the spot for this mike..) It was a blanket statement for his use and actions on the site. not just the forums.

You Quoted me on PART of this, on which i made a comment about Mikes Statements and information he got from Jeff :

If hes got NOTHING to do or very little to do with the Site and how its run now, why's he even bothering to email? is it somone else*edit* (and not jeff)*?? whys he still running the site then? shouldnt somone more dedicated be on that sort of job?

* this bit was a take on another comment i read in the thread as well. saying that perhaps its not jeff in the email, but somone using his name in it just because.
anyway. you quoted part of that And replied to only:

is it somone else?? whys he still running the site then? shouldnt somone more dedicated be on that sort of job?

and then said this:

Delegation is very common. As to why he responded to this, price fixing is an extremely serious charge. I believe that's a charge of a federal crime.

That dosnt even pertain to what was said in the first place? Care to explain?

Of course price fixing is a serious charge, and on another note changing ones TOS to suit his needs at the time AFTER this all took place dosnt really help his case either. thats a move more shiesty that i can think of.

theyre KNOWN for telling people they cannot sell their animals at certain prices, and to stay even with the current market. whatever you wanna call it, thats price fixing. plain and simple.

If i wanted to sell a ball python for .50 i should be able to. Im by no means ever going to be a big breeder ( heck i dont breed yet..), i dont think selling 5 ball pythons for fifty cents is really going to hurt the market... anyone else going to be hurt by this???? speak up now!

Now if people like Ralph Davis, or MKR or NERD decided to do that, sure it might hurt. but thats only because they have enough animals to actually affect the market with prices like this for a decent amount of time.

But if they sold animals at that price, theyd be out of business. so then things would even out in the end, and people could resume normal sales.

which has nothing to do with price fixing.

It was my personal opinion of the site, and my review of it. of course it dosnt have anything to do with price fixing. But neither does your comment at this point. so why say that?

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

"Sorry Ben, not trying to beat you over the head here. If we were drinking buddies, I would have counseled against this thread is all, for the reasons indicated."

I agree with Chameleon Company.

And in my opinion, since it was just a clear case of the TOS of Kingsnake being violated on the starter of this thread with listing dollar amount with grams, this whole thread was uncalled for and the term " price fixing " has nothing to do with this situation and was not used it the proper context. It's that simple. It is all illustrated when the starter posted his ad and then Kingsnake's response.

The other issues of bad customer service, etc., is a whole other subject.

Just my opinion.

Good Points.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Good Points.

( sorry, posted too fast... I mean Good points on the Customer Service bits and such... )

 

[ravensgait]

A couple of people have faulted Ben for not following the TOS yet from what I gather from this thread so far the TOS was changed at least once since Ben's original problem.
Now the header for this thread is maybe flawed but viewing myself as (hopefully) a reasonable person I would think that many others would see it as some attempt at controlling the pricing by Kingsnake. Was it one of their big accounts complaining that started this? who knows. Didn't they run MKR off because of their pricing? I just know they gave them the boot.

KS has shown in the Past that the opinions of those who pay them the most matter the most and to a certain extent I guess they should. But I think they go to far and seem to go out of their way to dump on the little guys.

Makes me wonder about them, they allow Scammers and other ripoff artiest to hang on even after people complain yet toss people for things like this. Randy

 

[JunglePaul]

I agree with you Randy. There have been several scams brought to the attention of Kingsnake and were exposed in the BOI over the past few years, yet the scammers were still able to sell without incident... I guess their pricing points pleased Kingsnake.

 

[dberes]

And in my opinion, since it was just a clear case of the TOS of Kingsnake being violated on the starter of this thread with listing dollar amount with grams, this whole thread was uncalled for and the term " price fixing " has nothing to do with this situation and was not used it the proper context. It's that simple. It is all illustrated when the starter posted his ad and then Kingsnake's response.

KINGSNAKE'S CURRENT TOS BELOW:

General Classified Ad Rules

All ads must have a realistic price or price range listed.

No auctions may be conducted or advertised in our classifieds. This includes phrases such as "Best offer above price listed."

Ads posted to the incorrect classified site or section will be removed or moved to the most appropriate section.

Posting ads for a specific animal in multiple sections - You may not cross post an ad to multiple classified sections when there is a section specifically set aside for that animal. Example: It is not acceptable to post an ad for Leopard Geckos in the general Gecko section or a Ball Python ad in the general Python section.

"Blanket" Ads - There is no one advertisement that can be posted to each and every section of our classifieds. If you have an ad that has 100 animals on it and it is in the gecko section, all the animals listed have to be geckos. An ad that has a boa, a gecko, and a frog in it cannot be posted in multiple sections.

We only allow "for sale" and "stud service" for domestic breed puppies, kittens, cats, or dogs to qualified breeders who are pre-approved Code of Ethics breeders. Registration for our Code of Ethics registry is free, but separate and in addition to classified account registration. We do not allow "free" or "for trade" ads for puppies, kittens, cats, or dogs, even from registered breeders. We do allow "stud fee" puppies or kittens back, but we do not allow any other form of trade for cats, dogs, puppies or kittens. To apply for our Code of Ethics breeders program please go to http://cathobbyist.com/breederregistry or http://doghobbyist.com/breederregistry.

Product Ads - All product ads belong in the appropriate product section(s). We do not allow non-animal ads in the animal sections. In other words, ads for cages, misters, feeders, books, hooks, probes, gauges, thermometers, supplies, leads, tools, t-shirts, posters, videos, expos, seminars, or any other paraphernalia no matter how closely related, are prohibited in the animal sections.

"Piggybacking" Products - No "Piggybacking" of items in one ad to get it to show up in an inappropriate section. No "See the Geckos at Bob's Reptile Expo" in the gecko or lizard sections or putting a cage ad in with your boa and python ad. Once again, the rules are no non-animal ads in the animal sections.

Trade Ads - No "trade" ads are allowed in the sale-type classified sections. We have classified sections for these and they need to be placed there. You may mention in a sales ad that you will accept trades, but if you list what you want to trade in the ad, the ad will be removed.

Trades of Off Topic Products - Certain off topic items such as computers, telephones, VCRs, cameras, video equipment, and other items are allowed only in the trades section, and only at our discretion. If we review your advertisement and determine the item is inappropriate for our site, it will be removed.

Event Referencing - Referencing upcoming "Events" in the subject heading, name field or location field, in ads is prohibited. You may mention in the body of an ad that you will be at an upcoming event, but it cannot be the focus of the ad itself. The exception to this is if you are posting an event-only ad in the "Events" classified section.

Competing Classifieds / Hosting Services / Banner Ads - We do not allow people who sell services that directly compete with our primary business to advertise their competing products on our site. We certainly do not care where else they advertise them, but we do not allow it on our site.

Negative Advertising - We don't allow advertising that references other vendors products, businesses, or names in a negative or disparaging manner, whether directly or indirectly. If you can't sell your product or service without disparaging your competition, then you can't sell your product here.

Ads that have no product - Your advertisement must be selling something. It must have a specific product or animal, or group of animals offered in the advertisement itself. We do not allow ads that just say, "come to my web site for details" in the body. While we allow you to post your site URL in the ad, if your ad does not contain the details of the product, including price or a price range, listed in the subject, it will be removed. Our classifieds are not here to "build" your web site traffic; they are here to help you sell products. We have other programs for helping build website traffic; use our Contact Page to contact the Advertising/Hosting sales department about our "Storefront," banner ad programs, breeder registry/locator, and pet shop locator programs, which were designed with just that purpose in mind.

Banned Products/Services - We do not ever want to see ANY advertisements for long distance service, pornographic materials, weapons, multi-level marketing schemes, mortgages, gambling of any nature or anything else that is not directly related to pets. We have no place for these ads and they will not be tolerated.

Where did Ben break the TOS rules at? Is it just me or do you see where you are not allowed to sell snakes by the gram on the TOS? I do not see where it says he ad has to be in a dollar amount.

Later,
Drenton Beres

 

[dberes]

That last sentence is suppose to read, "I do not see where it says his ad has to be in a dollar amount too."

Later,
Drenton Beres

 

[TomO]

Well if hes that worried, he should be here explaining himself and his actions..........
as for the mudslinging comment...I dont think thats true at all, people are able to post here with a mature and reasonable additude. ..........

Of course there would be mudslinging. It would be open season for anyone who ever had a beef with him / them. I don't agree with what was done, but I can't find fault with KS for staying away from this. If you think I'm wrong, take a look at the thread MKR started.

 

[DISCERN]

" All ads must have a realistic price or price range listed. "

As stated before, the seller did not list an actual price for the snake. He just said " so and so " amount per gram. That is the reason the ad was pulled and this quote from KS's TOS is what it applies to.

 

[ravensgait]

Billy maybe I'm wrong but I think that was added to the TOS after the fact.Randy

 

[sjuk8]

Kingsnake

I agree. I have similiar issues with them because of pricing below the large breeders. And then what, morphking came out with VERY low prices and took the legs out form the market. Do you think the big guess used this one person/company to collectively sell many? Just some thoughts.

 

[DISCERN]

well, if that is the case, then I hear ya. BUT, it still would not have a thing to do with " price fixing " per se but clearly confusing communication on KS's part.

 

[liquidleaf]

When Ben first posted this thread, he hadn't been told EXACTLY why his pricing was "not reasonable". Which is why price fixing was used in the title, because without any further description from KS customer service, "not reasonable" could mean "too low". As it turns out, they really meant "in a dollar format", which was brought up partway through this thread. Does that mean "price fixing" should never have been used in this thread? No! Because at the start, it wasn't clear what the heck they meant by reasonable.

There have been many threads started on the BOI that first questioned possible bad behavior, and later the issues were clarified. Just because Ben EVENTUALLY got a more clear explanation for his ad's deletion doesn't mean this thread isn't valid. Was KS attempting to price fix in this instance? It turns out to be no. But like most of you, I agree that KS customer service could EASILY have avoided this whole issue by being more polite and more detailed in their communication with Ben.

No one wants to spend money for something (ie advertising), just to be treated rudely.

As for KS's "custom" software (forums)- I have to laugh. There are so many better and FREE bulletin board and forum solutions available today that their reasons to keep their "custom" sucky solution seem pointless. Seems like they just want to keep the software that someone there crafted by hand because it took them a lot of effort to create and implement "way back when", rather than adapt one of the free and better solutions, which would probably serve their audience much better. Let's face it, regarding software and internet code, you can't cling to code just because YOU made it, and expect it to hold up through the test of time.

Thanks for listening.