Questioning Chris Steele auction on ReptiBid

[PaulSage]

Attacks like yours are EXACTLY why the herping industry has a horrible name.

Chris, with all due respect, I don't think it's the attacks. It's the fly-by-night scammers and the breeders with poor business ethics that taint the herp industry. The 'attacks' you speak of are a necessary attempt to cleanse the industry of such breeders and scammers. (I'm NOT saying that about you or anyone in particular). If the bad guys aren't brought to task, they'll continue to pollute the industry. I think the BOI does a darn good job of doing just that.

 

[DAND]

I may be a young guy, but take a look at how much time you put into putting a person down.

Actually it's individuals like you that make it rather easy to keep in practice so it doesn't take much time at all. If you think I have been putting you down you will be in for an unpleasant surprise if I start.

Please, Groaning chill.

Wow, I haven't been called that since grammar school. Which has been more than 10 years prior to you being a glimmer in your daddy's eye.

Attacks like yours are EXACTLY why the herping industry has a horrible name.

Junior, junior, junior, if you think I've been attacking you, you obviously don't know what attacking is.

By the way it is the crooked individuals (be it stealing, scamming, lying, omitting, misrepresenting, etc...) like yourself who give this industry a bad name.

Lets come together and be professional.

Seeing how you conduct business, which I can only guess is your idea of professional, is not the path I choose to take. I'd prefer to be honest with my customers and everybody else. Sorry this concept is lost on the likes of you.

I am your friend if you'd just calm down.

Again junior, I don't associate with individuals who have a hard time differentiating between the truth and lies. Therefore you CAN NOT be my friend.

 

[Chameleon Company]

I missed something ...

Dave,
I thought that I read the whole thread last night, so when you say of Chris "By the way it is the crooked individuals (be it stealing, scamming, lying, omitting, misrepresenting, etc...) like yourself who give this industry a bad name", can you just reference to me where he stole, scammed, and lied? I think that some omission and misrepresentation here was possible, but was not proven, and was seen by many as being minor at best. That he chose to not return to the thread for many months could be indicative that he was quite put-off by many of the comments, which seems very reasonable to me, especially since he was a kid. Frankly, I thought that your play on words about his name "Steele" actually better said "Steal" was very over-the-top. Did he steal?
And for the other gentleman, I am going to have to disagree with your conclusion that "attacks" keep the hobby straight. I think that blessing is a bit broad. No doubt that the BOI and other forums allow for the "outing" of scammers, etc. But many "attacks" here and elsewhere lack the professionalism to help anybody or anything. Many people avoid commenting or posting here because too many threads disintegrate into gutter attacks, or become hijacked beyond the ability of many of us to follow. I think many out there share my annoyance with having become involved in a thread, only to then see it run well beyond its useful life, and fill my in-box with tit-for-tat posts that run for days and pages beyond their livelihood.
Chris, you are young in this hobby. I don't think your integrity suffered in the eyes of most from this year-old thread. Possibly some mistakes made, but you'll learn, like the rest of us. Best of luck in your future.

Jim Flaherty
The Chameleon Company, LLC

 

[Chris Steele]

Thanks Jim. That is what I was trying to say. Paul, I didn't mean that all attacks are bad, well that is if you consider humble attempts at setting a wrong right attacks, which I don't. I just can't see the purpose in doing so in an aggressive, destructive manor. I think you probably agree, I just don't see humble posts against someone doing wrong an attack.

Really David, please calm down. By saying "Groaning" I was only trying to show how childish your attempt at name calling was. Even you agreed that my saying that was childish, it was what you did. Lets put this aside and forget it. I haven't stolen anything, but I won't say I am the best of persons. Far from it. I'm sorry for the anger and grief that I've caused you Dave.

 

[PaulSage]

And for the other gentleman, I am going to have to disagree with your conclusion that "attacks" keep the hobby straight. I think that blessing is a bit broad. No doubt that the BOI and other forums allow for the "outing" of scammers, etc. But many "attacks" here and elsewhere lack the professionalism to help anybody or anything.

My conclusion was not that "attacks keep the hobby straight". If that is what you inferred, then I apologize for not being more articulate. What I said was that they are an attempt to cleanse the hobby of unfit breeders and scammers. If attacks kept the hobby straight, than this forum would have rid the industry of kinks long ago. They are an attempt. That doesn't mean they're a solution. There isn't a whole lot else we can do to prevent being taken advantage of by scammers or to keep unethical breeders from tarnishing the reputation of the herp. industry. I agree with you Jim that many attacks here lack the professionalism necessary to make them effective, but often times it seems they are a response to a legitimate gripe. Being able to tell the difference dictates how much you are able to gain from what you read. Again this is just my perspective on things.

 

[Laura Fopiano]

Chris

The members of this board are not here to try and chase away sellers or buyers. We are here to protect the business that we love, and if there is a lack of integrity, morals, and ethics, we will call you and any one else out.

I would also sudjest that you buy from a local show in your area. I noticed on your profile that you are only 17 years old, that's not a bad thing, however, many sellers that frequent this board will not sell to minors because of the lack of financial recourse due them if something does go wrong

If you love this hobby buy all means keep doing it, legally, safely, and with the ethics that all seller's and buyers deserve. We need good young people in the industry, don't let us or your self down.

 

[DAND]

Really David, please calm down.

Do you really think you are getting me upset? Believe me, it takes a lot more than likes of you to get me worked up. You are just an ignorant kid who thinks he knows best. You got called out, and instead of being a man you decided to run away like a child.

By saying "Groaning" I was only trying to show how childish your attempt at name calling was.

You haven't been off the nipple long enough to "show" me, let alone anyone else here anything.

I won't say I am the best of persons. Far from it.

Finally some representation from you that has the sound of truth. Go with it.

I'm sorry for the anger and grief that I've caused you Dave.

Again, it would take a lot more than the likes of you to give me grief let alone anger me.

 

[Chameleon Company]

David,
You do seem a bit worked up though! In two consecutive posts you have resorted to referring to Chris' age in a derogatory way. C'mon, is that all you have in your quiver ?? You accuse him of serious crimes, make allegations, and yet when I ask you to substantiate them, it is you who duck the issue. Support your statements about these crimes. You also made fun of his name when he had made no ill statements of you, directly implying that he was a thief. Enlighten all of us who failed to see Chris as anything worse than a then 15-16 year old who had his auction hijacked.
Laura, I thank you for your comments, and only wish more here adhered to such a noble pursuit as "We are here to protect the business that we love, and if there is a lack of integrity, morals, and ethics, we will call you and any one else out." Unfortunately, many who post who can claim no more morals than having paid a few bucks and too having much time on their hands.
C'mon Dave, make the effort to back up your charges for all of us. I have read the thread twice through now, and can't find the basis for your serious allegatons.

Jim Flaherty
The Chameleon Company, LLC

 

[Chameleon Company]

Chris,
Wouldn't want to deter you from participating as a buyer-vendor anywhere. Be sure you are in accordance with any posted rules, and by all means practice the best ethics possible. Much has been made of your age by some in this thread, but isn't it ironic that your original auction was hijacked by an adult, who graciously acknowleged that she would be more discreet if she had it to do over again, the thread itself was later taken astray by "adults", your name was twisted and made fun of by an "adult", some over-blown accusations were made by "adults", and now it is adults talking about you and nipples ! Amazing, eh !! Could tell a joke or two now about how "adults", males anyway, spend much of that adult life trying to get back to those places frequented in the first moments of their youth, but that's for the Board of Jokes! Good luck.

Jim Flaherty
The Chameleon Company, LLC

 

[Chris Steele]

QUOTE]eh !! Could tell a joke or two now about how "adults", males anyway, spend much of that adult life trying to get back to those places frequented in the first moments of their youth, but that's for the Board of Jokes![/QUOTE]

Lol, I got a good laugh out of that. Really David, if you aren't angry then why persist? I mean I try not to let it bother me and I tried to fix it by apologizing, but your eager persistence in trying to get me to blow my top and show my youthful behavior is getting to me. David, chill, be professional, we should not be arguing, much less fighting, we should be helping and giving advice to each other. "The likes of me" I'd like to see the day when your can truthfully say you are any better, smarter, or anything than me. I apologized man, please stop. Anyway, you make good points, all of you besides David who obviously didn't accept the apology.

Anyway, Jim, you say the attacks are in a way good sometimes. I disagree though, I think if someone has wronged another in the business then after proving it and talking to this person about it the thing to be done should be to post what happened all around to let the industry know who this person is and why they can't be trusted. I agree though that it's not a solution, nothing is, scammers will always be here and in every industry. Just letting people know that these people aren't here to do us any good is all we can do in my opinion.

Laura, I thank you for what you said and making it acknowledged that without the youth coming into this industry the industry will be done within a few years. I can definitely see the financial and responsibility reasons behind not selling to a minor too, but then again there are many many adults I know that are worse off than me, sadly.

 

[Chris Steele]

Ha, nice, I messed my quote up.

David, one thing I can show you. It isn't just me that thinks you are overboard. You have a warning level of 9 due to your uncalledfore, aggressive attitude

 

[Jim O]

Chris, not defending Dave or maligning you but a warning level of "9" is hardly something that would put anyone in the "bad guys" club. Looked at another way, compare your level of "2" with 170 current posts to Daves of "9" over 1900+ posts. Put it in perspective and compare it to the all time Warning Point leader at 110 who also has one of the highest member feeback scores (as does Dave).

 

[Chris Steele]

My warning is not for malicious behavior. His is, that was my only point, not that he should be labelled as a bad guy. Obviously he is a good breeder with a bad attitude.

 

[Jim O]

Actually Chris that was for three out of his 1900+ posts. Not so terrible in my humble opinion. And not so terrible in comparison to others here. Your two points were for failing to obey the posted rules of the site, as were all of his. You can argue it any way that you like, it is not an indication of anything nut three bad posts. Your argument is a weak one because it fails to take into account the hundreds of helpful posts that he has made.

 

[Chris Steele]

Sorry.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Speaking of "weak arguments"

Jim O,
Like all others, this is only my opinion, but if I may quote your reply to Chris "Your argument is a weak one because it fails to take into account the hundreds of helpful posts that he has made.". The "he" here refers to Dave, where Chris has pointed out Dave's lack of professionalism and warning points. In the broad sense, maybe Chris' argument is not relevent. But within this thread, its quite on the mark. If Dave has informative, helpful, and inciteful posts elsewhere, then good for him. In this thread he has made unsubstantiated accusations, called someone names like a you'd expect to hear on a grammar school playground, belittled someone because of their age, and presented himself as an all around troll. In other recent "helpful" threads, he has felt it appropriate to post pictures of weed and black kettles, to belittle someone there who admitted to a past marijuana conviction and provide us with other "childish" nonsense. I use "childish" as it seem so ironic to Dave's jabs at Chris. Its a shame that someone as informative as Dave has to litter the BOI with all this nonsense. Dave's posts in this thread were neither informative or helpful, just ignorant, and at times malicious. I would implore Dave to come back to this thread, call me every name in the book, and then get back to the issue of Chris and his actions, and more specifically Dave's labeling him as being a thief, liar, and scammer, which are completely unsubstantiated by the thread. But when did that ever stop "Helpful Dave"!

Jim Flaherty
The Chameleon Company, LLC

 

[Jim O]

Jim O,
Like all others, this is only my opinion, but if I may quote your reply to Chris "Your argument is a weak one because it fails to take into account the hundreds of helpful posts that he has made.". The "he" here refers to Dave, where Chris has pointed out Dave's lack of professionalism and warning points. In the broad sense, maybe Chris' argument is not relevent. But within this thread, its quite on the mark. If Dave has informative, helpful, and inciteful posts elsewhere, then good for him. In this thread he has made unsubstantiated accusations, called someone names like a you'd expect to hear on a grammar school playground, belittled someone because of their age, and presented himself as an all around troll. In other recent "helpful" threads, he has felt it appropriate to post pictures of weed and black kettles, to belittle someone there who admitted to a past marijuana conviction and provide us with other "childish" nonsense. I use "childish" as it seem so ironic to Dave's jabs at Chris. Its a shame that someone as informative as Dave has to litter the BOI with all this nonsense. Dave's posts in this thread were neither informative or helpful, just ignorant, and at times malicious. I would implore Dave to come back to this thread, call me every name in the book, and then get back to the issue of Chris and his actions, and more specifically Dave's labeling him as being a thief, liar, and scammer, which are completely unsubstantiated by the thread. But when did that ever stop "Helpful Dave"!

Jim Flaherty
The Chameleon Company, LLC

Jim,

Did you perhaps miss the part where I suggested that I wasn't taking sides and merely making a point? I was not commenting on the validity of *anyone's* arguments, not even yours. Perhaps you have an issue with Dave or a love for Chris, either way, it does not concern me. But for the record, Dave has not been issued any of those warning points for any posts in this thread.

To bring the warning points up was wrong, off topic, and out of context. My point was, if Chris (or you now) wanted to bring them up, perhaps he should also look at Dave's feedback score from readers, which is quite high, in fact it is among the top 10 on the site. We all make "mistakes" and have "indiscretions". Heck, our President was an admitted drunk and had a DWI. Three posts out of 1900+ hardly is evidence of anything.

If you or Chris want to point at Dave's posts in this thread then have at it. But if you want to use his "past behavior" look at the big picture, not just the part that suits your argument. And that was my point, which evidently you missed, Mr. Fairness.

And I am still not taking sides. Frankly, in my opinion (yes we all have one), Chris would have been better off to let this sleeping dog lie, and his commentary in his post in bringing this back to the top was ill advised to say the least. That is not to say that Dave hasn't shown his darker side, he has. So now we have a situation where there are two wrongs, and rather than letting it die (which is what I advised Chris to do when I gave him positive reputation points today after he made his posts) you have come brought it back to the top several hours later.

I suggest that if you have issues with Dave's posts, comment on them as they occur. Your comments in this thread regarding his posts in another are off topic and also "pollute" this thread. If you have real issues with him, start a thread in the Hell Forum and duke it out. But let's stick to the issues and people involved in the transactions and not to the participants in the thread, shall we?

 

[Chameleon Company]

Hey Jim O.,
We have points of agreement, but there are major points in your post that I find a bit contradictory. I'll enjoy the "Mr. Fairness" label, yet I don't think I ever used the word "fair". But hey ... Thanks!
As to staying on topic, I agree. Chris has been on topic, responding to the petty posts and attacks from Dave. You choose to come to Dave's defense, pointing out his "helpful" side. It is very much Chris' perogative to resurrect any thread in which he was falsely accused. Its his reputation to defend, for better or for worse. Personally, if I were Chris, I would have responded last year to Dave's indiscretions with my name, but then again, I'm not 16 years old, and perhaps a bit overwhelmed at the time by adults bahaving badly. I completely reject anyone's notion that rep points are worth the paper they are printed on. Chris may have invoked warning points in his arguments, but you invoked rep-points, as if they matter in this thread. They do not. But you can just keep dishing them out! My biggest complaint with your last post is this line "Three posts out of 1900+ hardly is evidence of anything", when speaking of Dave's posts in this thread. Those three posts are very relevent here, and the other 1897 don't mean squat if you are Chris. Don't mean squat to me neither The warning points (brought up by Chris) are not relevent here. The rep points, brought to the table by you, also are not. Dave's posts deserve as much explanation as any accusation I have seen in the BOI. We seem to agree that they were mistakes. So come on down Dave and explain your posts in this thread ! And Jim O., in case you didn't get it the first time, I take issue with Dave's stupid remarks about Chris' youth in this thread. I take issue with his slander in this thread. I take issue with his rep points being relevent as mentioned by you in this thread. After Chris referenced unimportant stats earned elsewhere, you admonished him, and then did the same. If you want to chastise my pointing out Dave's other malicious posts in recent threads, then have it .... it is no more relevent or irrelevent as your rep points !! We had Dave with the name calling. And now we have you with the name calling !! And a final note, I respect Chris and his composure throughout this recent resurrection of a thread where he took some heat. You call it "love" ??? As politely as I can say it, you can put your that characterization of me where the sun doesn't shine, Jim O. We can agree to disagree, but why the nonsense?

Jim Flaherty, aka "Mr. Fairness"
The Chameleon Company, LLC

 

[Jim O]

As politely as I can say it, you can put your that characterization of me where the sun doesn't shine, Jim O. We can agree to disagree, but why the nonsense?

Jim Flaherty, aka "Mr. Fairness"
The Chameleon Company, LLC

It was kinder than the that you threw my my, don't ya think?

And your circular argument about my bringing up rep points wasn't lost on me. And I defended no one. I made that clear. So get off your horse. It's crap stinks like the rest of ours.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Hey Jim O.,
We have points of agreement, but there are major points in your post that I find a bit contradictory. I'll enjoy the "Mr. Fairness" label, yet I don't think I ever used the word "fair". But hey ... Thanks!
As to staying on topic, I agree. Chris has been on topic, responding to the petty posts and attacks from Dave. You choose to come to Dave's defense, pointing out his "helpful" side. It is very much Chris' perogative to resurrect any thread in which he was falsely accused. Its his reputation to defend, for better or for worse. Personally, if I were Chris, I would have responded last year to Dave's indiscretions with my name, but then again, I'm not 16 years old, and perhaps a bit overwhelmed at the time by adults bahaving badly. I completely reject anyone's notion that rep points are worth the paper they are printed on. Chris may have invoked warning points in his arguments, but you invoked rep-points, as if they matter in this thread. They do not. But you can just keep dishing them out! My biggest complaint with your last post is this line "Three posts out of 1900+ hardly is evidence of anything", when speaking of Dave's posts in this thread. Those three posts are very relevent here, and the other 1897 don't mean squat if you are Chris. Don't mean squat to me neither The warning points (brought up by Chris) are not relevent here. The rep points, brought to the table by you, also are not. Dave's posts deserve as much explanation as any accusation I have seen in the BOI. We seem to agree that they were mistakes. So come on down Dave and explain your posts in this thread ! And Jim O., in case you didn't get it the first time, I take issue with Dave's stupid remarks about Chris' youth in this thread. I take issue with his slander in this thread. I take issue with his rep points being relevent as mentioned by you in this thread. After Chris referenced unimportant stats earned elsewhere, you admonished him, and then did the same. If you want to chastise my pointing out Dave's other malicious posts in recent threads, then have it .... it is no more relevent or irrelevent as your rep points !! We had Dave with the name calling. And now we have you with the name calling !! And a final note, I respect Chris and his composure throughout this recent resurrection of a thread where he took some heat. You call it "love" ??? As politely as I can say it, you can put your that characterization of me where the sun doesn't shine, Jim O. We can agree to disagree, but why the nonsense?

Jim Flaherty, aka "Mr. Fairness"
The Chameleon Company, LLC

Jim

While there are arguments you have broached that have some merit, I take issue with the items highlighted above.

1.) We have no idea if Chris was "falsely accused" He stated so several months ago and promised to post pics to prove his assertions. In fact, I was the one who asked for those additional pictures that he agreed to supply, After a post that promised them within 48 hours, he promptly disappeared for 14 months. I would hardly characterize that as "falsely accused".

2.) I agree that it is his reputation to defend. However, the time to defend it was when the situation occurred. He has no credibility here anymore on this topic. Over done with gone....no one cares about his guilt or innocence at this point. He shot the wad on that over a year ago.

3.) I agree that Chris has showed reasonable composure this time around. However, giving him kudos for it is ridiculous in that it was hime who resurrected a dead and buried thread for no logical reason since he had nothing material at all to add to it other than "i'm back, be nice to me"

No one either cared or would have noticed that he was back Jim. 100% of the negative attention he drew to himself was caused by that idiotic post. You can say what you like about the boy but this entire situation is completely on him.