Questioning the Integrity and Morals of the BOI and FaunaClassfieds.com

[Gary O]

I seriously have thought about this before posting here. This is no way an attack on Rich {Webslave} personally. However as I felt this topic directly effects the entire reptile community I felt it appropriate and necessary to bring this to the attention of the Members of this site. As it specifically deals with the BOI and Fauna Classifieds and its integrity and moral of protecting and weeding out the bad influences of this hobby and business.



This is a cut n paste I had with WEBSLAVE {Rich} in the Administrative section of Fauna.

The thread:

Fauna Classifieds Forums > Admin & General Topics > Fauna Classifieds Feedback Forum > Webslave I got a question/Request.
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Gary E Orner
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Webslave I got a question/Request.
I post this here cause I know you are very busy. A friend of mine has tried to email you and PM you. You need a clone to help you out lol

Ok I see you have the petition up for the shipping of herps. Well as you may have heard. There is now one going around about the illegal making of Venomoids. Is there any chance you could do the same for this petition?

Here is the link to the petition. http://reptilians.org/petitions/petvenom/

It would mean a lot if you could do this..............

Thanks my friend
Gary


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06-04-2004 12:19 AM



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Gary,

Right now I am carrying so many banners that I feel like I'm a one man parade. Sorry, but I've got too many hot issues on my plate right now, and just don't feel like taking a stand on yet another one. I just don't want to spread myself any thinner than I already am over multiple issues.

Sorry I can't be of more help....


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My request was simply to have him make this a sticky if possible on the top of all forums just as he did with the SHIPPING PETITION. This petition would and can affect the entire hobby / business in its entirety. Think about it if just one of these animals that are operated on by unlicensed and untrained person does in time give its keeper a venomous bite. Now conceder if you will all the regulation for reptiles and think about all the new laws and BANS that would come from just one bite if and when the media and general public outcry from the bite occur and they will.



There are already many cases and laws passed and pending related to reptiles from the ignorance of the politicians and general public. This petition against venomous reptiles is designed to PROTECT the entire hobby and the animal itself. Are these not the chief cornerstones and morals for the BOI and Fauna classifieds.



With such bussiness’s and sites already backing this petition such as Hank Molts Global Reptiles.com, Snakegetters.com, Bitisgabonica.com, Exotic Reptiles Jungle” exoticsrus.com”, Herpitological breeding research.com, Reptilians.org, Herp Photos.com, Hunter Serpentology, Swattrapping.com, The Reptile Room.org and the many names that have already signed it.



For Rich { Webslave } to say does not have the time is an insult to the Herp keeping community as a whole. As he still post daily on the BOI and other forums. It would only take him but few minutes to cut n paste and make sticky this petition. If the petition on shipping can be done which only effects a small majority in the business why not take the time for this petition which affects the entire community as a whole?


Respectfully
Gary E Orner Jr.

 

[DThomas]

I can certainly understand where you are coming from Gary but try to look at this way...

You would have to agree the venomoid issue is very controversial. Most individuals are strongly against it or for it. I think Rich is just trying to avoid the almost assured flood of emails and posts from people on both sides of the issue. He already has his hands full with the lawsuit and breeding season and I don't really blame him for not wanting to put another hot potato on his plate.

I don't see this as themost opportune time for Rich to take yet another stand on a hot topic. I would be patient and allow some of the other issues to come to a close and maybe revisit this at a later time and I bet you might find Rich more receptive.

 

[ms_terese]

Gary,

I think you've gone overboard in questioning the "Integrity and Morals of the BOI and FaunaClassifieds".

From a business standpoint, if FC was to make every serious issue one of the spotlighted issues, it would soon lose its impact. Let's think about it: shipping, venomoids, rattlesnake roundups, exotic ownership legislation, field collecting legislation, illegal import......the list goes on and on.

With FC, you have access to a website that gives a voice to every single person out there that wants to get their message out. It's without censorship (not counting the profanity filters). It's known around the world for exposing the "bad guys" in the herp industry.

To top it all off, it doesn't cost you a dime.

I can understand an emotional response to the venomoid issue, but you seriously need to take a step back and think about the accusations you're making. I know that I'm not alone in believing you owe Webslave a huge apology.

 

[DThomas]

Gary,

I think you've gone overboard in questioning the "Integrity and Morals of the BOI and FaunaClassifieds".

I completely agree Terese. IMO, Rich is above reproach when it comes to issues of integrety and morals.

 

[Gary O]

I owe him nothing. This is what the BOI is for isn't it? This will effect everyone. I am a webmaster myself and know that it is not that hard to make a sticky. You bring up the others. Yes I believe a herp community should stand tall together fight for what is right together. Not say I do not want to be bothered.


This is a ligetimate question.

We bash Tim for sending Matt a sick snake. We bash the person that sends dead abused animals. But we will sit back and watch these people hack animals? This is bigger then the shipping thing. This will effect the HOBBY as a whole. These people will give the laws more fire power then we ever believed possible. If this petition goes our way it helps us all and costs us nothing except a few hate emails. If it doesn't go our way it could cost us our hobby.

Send me all the hate mail you want. Fill my email boxes. Fill my site. If this petition goes threw it will be worth it. It is not about me, Rich, you or anyone else. It is about OUR hobby and these animals

 

[dwedeking]

Wow. I've had many conversations with Rich concerning time management, priorities and running Fauna. This is something he's battled with for the couple of years I've been here. So he honestly limits himself from your request due to the limits of being human and only being able to accomplish so much in a 24 hour day.

These "issues" he takes on do not only require a "sticky" note post but also make him (and his site) the point man both from those for as well as those against the issue. This takes time and energy to handle. He gave you an honest assesment of his ability to handle another straw on the camel's back and you slap him in the face for it. Great!!

 

[HerpVenue]

Well I don't know if questioning the morals and integrity of the BOI and faunaclassifieds is the way to go.

This is a business that caters to the general public.
It does not cater to just one side or the other of that issue.

Taking a stand would mean alienating the others on the other side. That too me is the equivalent of business suicide.
The BOI is the voice of the general public....once it takes a stand on this issue.......what happens to the voices of the venomoid owners? They can no longer consider the BOI as their voice.
While yes he took a stand on the shipping issue, it is for the betterment of the general herp community, NOT just one side or the other.

While I myself post here everyday, I am far too busy myself to consider which side of this venomoid issue I fall on. Telling people what to do in instances of clearly right and clearly wrong is easy. But telling them what to do on instances where I myself am confused is not as easy.

Am I ready to tell people that "devenomization" is wrong?................well it depends
Its like asking me if declawing cats are wrong.
or like asking me if circumsicion is wrong.
or like asking me if spaying is wrong.
or like asking me if neutering is wrong.

I agree it will affect the entire reptile trade.
The shipping issue would affect the entire reptile trade in a POSITIVE way.
Will this affect the entire reptile trade in a "POSITIVE" way?.......if the answer is yes
then I ask what happens to the people who deal with venomoids? They will now have to jump through hoops and governmental red tape , that we the herpers asked for.

Now consider the following statement

Now conceder if you will all the regulation for reptiles and think about all the new laws and BANS that would come from just one bite

Basically what the petition is trying to do is stop future "bad" legislation by asking for present "good" legislation.

It is sorta like asking the federal government to only let the licensed individuals carry guns.
Then poof no one gets a license and only the bad guys have guns.

While it is true I am not sure where I stand on the venomoid issue.
I sure do know where I stand in regards to asking the federal government for "good" legislation.......I am TOTALLY AGAINST it.

If a notarized sworn affidavite is what people are looking for.
Then they should start asking for it.......from the seller......and NOT the government.

This petition is asking the federal government for "good" legislation. That is what the normal person sees.
I myself am not normal. You all know that. What do I see?

I see the following.

Excuse me Mr. Federal government. I am in the reptile trade and we can't regulate ourselves, and we are all a bunch of losers who want to endanger the public. So can you do me a favor and regulate us before we do any harm to the public? Since we can't do it ourselves I think you (the government) should do it for us.

asking for legislation to avoid future legislation does not make sense to me.

 

[HerpVenue]

We bash Tim for sending Matt a sick snake.
yes because it is wrong. but we are not asking the government for regulations against it.

We bash the person that sends dead abused animals.
yes because it is wrong. but again we are not asking the federal government to regulate it.

But we will sit back and watch these people hack animals?
actually people bash them too.



we regulate ourselves on the other issue by bashing them and not buying from them and spreading the wrod to boycott them.

why are we all of a sudden going to change our tactics and ask the federal government to do it for us?

 

[Blackwater Reptiles]

Take this thread to HELL

Where it belongs.... this isn't about Rich or the web site.... it's about personal choices... I can't stand the thought of someone "modifying" the snakes so they can parade them around for their friends, but this doesn't reflect on Rich or the site... As Dennis stated, venomoids are just as heavily contested as abortion, and you'll NEVER have anything more than a huge pi$$ing contest on an internet message board about either one....

Venomoids are for those who would pull the canines out of a big cat so they could keep it.... same mentality.... same ethics.. none.
It isn't something a poll, or anything else here, will "cure."

TAKE IT TO HELL where you can tell it like you really feel....

 

[Hanibal Lector]

why are we all of a sudden going to change our tactics and ask the federal government to do it for us?

No kidding. Whenever I have a problem I handle it personally.

 

[Gary O]

Ok I am having trouble posting. i do not think it is the site but my PC. It keeps giving me a blank page.

Please do not take this to hell. I am asking honest questions.......

You bring up the Cat declawing and stuff. This is done by a vet. This petition is against the illegal making of venomoids. Please read the petition.

http://reptilians.org/petitions/petvenom/

Check out this link. This is how illegal voids are made
http://www.smuggled.com/VenArt1p.htm

This is how 99% of venomoids are made. WTF is that? Please tell me how that is the same to declawing a cat(even though I would not do that either)

A 2x4?????? Rubberbands?????? Nails????? COME ON?

This is not a ban on voids. This is to stop the illegal garage hacking? Would you let your friend do sergury on your dog cause it is cheaper?

 

[Wilomn]

Gary, I really don't see how you can question Rich's morals or integrity on this one.

You asked him to do something you have done, something which you have strong feelings about.

He declined to do so and you got mad. I think it's as simple as that.

He gave you his reasons, which are pretty good in my opinion. You gave yours which are also good but let's face facts.

Fact # 1) Rich's site has over 10,000 members that are registered.

Fact #2) Rich will produce over 6,000 snakes this year and keep healthy ALL those babies and thier parents

Fact #3) He's got the kingsnake nonsense to deal with as well

Fact#4) Your site just hit the 500 registered member mark. This is a VERY good thing but volume wise what you get from your members is a drop in the bucket compared to what Rich gets from his, not to mention what he probably gets from unregisted people.

Fact #5) You probably, and I am meaning NO insult by this, have more time to deal with the "hate emails" and other byblow from having this petition on your site.

These 5 Facts are important ones.

I think you over reacted on this one. I don't think Rich's morals nor those of the BOI are called into question here. He didn't say "sure Gary, let me get that up for you in a day or two when I have time" and then a few days later say, "in a day or two it'll be up Gary, I've just been too busy to see to it" and finally just blow you off. He told you why he couldn't.

I don't see how his integrity has been damaged either. For the same reasons as I stated above. He hasn't lied. He hasn't put you off with excuses. He's just been the plain old honest guy he always is.

Wes Pollock

 

[Gary O]

I did not question Rich but his site. There is a difference but then I can see where you guys got confused.

I stick up for Rich all the time. I think the KS stuff is stupid and Rich will win.

This is something that i feel the BOI is all about. STOPPING THE BAD GUY. The illegal making of voids.

I would even make the post and put the email up for all hate mail.

You question my time. I have my site and 5 others I run. I do not have 6000 animals but at tis time I have 140+ with eggs cookin.(yeah I am excited)

Rich is a great guy. Putting up a post that says.


Venomoid Petition.

With a link inside the subject Would have been nice. Believe me when I say this is bigger then the Shipping thing. When that void bites the little 3 year old and kills them because the nonvet did it wrong the hobby will be in danger............................

 

[Gary O]

Also I wanted to add. I am not upset at Rich at all. I am confused. The BOI is all about stopping the bad guy. This is not a ban on venomoids but to stop the garage hackers?

No time or space for that on a site built to stop people like that confuses me.

 

[Wilomn]

Now I, at least, was confused.

It seemed that you were attacking Rich for not putting up the petition.

I think perhaps you should re-state what you want and how you want it done. Not that it will change Rich's decision, but it may get some folks off your back.

Wes Pollock

 

[Gary O]

See I am not questioning Rich. But I am the BOI and the site. Because we all know it stands for something. STOPPING THE BAD GUYS.

This is the one of the largest sites around. and it is a great tool. With it coes a lot of work. I know this. I am asking is for a sticky to get the word out. Let the people read the petition and see it is not a ban on venomoids but jsut something to stop these hackers destroying our beloved hobby.

The BOI and Fauna stand against all the bad in the hobby. This petition is standing p against something bad in the hobby.

I know it takes money to run a site. I know Rich is having trouble with the jerk on KS. But this to deserves attention. IMHO.

Proviod or not you have to admit the way these snakes are treated to become Venomoids is WRONG. I say again

A 2x4, Rubberbands, Nails, Steal wire, and knives.....................

I ask WHY

 

[HerpVenue]

This petition is against the illegal making of venomoids.

Okay I am confused.
It is illegal.
So what is the problem?

The petition is asking the federal government to regulate it for us.
That is what I read from the petition.

they have made it "illegal"
now we are going to ask them for more red tape?

I am not here to say it is wrong or right.

I am just saying we do not need more regulations to prevent future ones.

The petition wants to prevent joe schmoe from hacking the animals.
But according to you it is already illegal.

The petition wants regulations to require sworn afidavits.
But why do we need the federal government for that? We can ask for it ourselves before we buy.
I do not need to ask the government to make me ask for the affidavit. I can remember to ask for it myself.

 

[Wilomn]

Instead of a petition asking for more regulations perhaps you should start a tip line.

Make something where people could anonymously let you know who is doing the hacking.

Provide some sort of reward and you'll have bunches of reports in no time at all. Of course, then you have to weed out the fake from the real, but that would seem more realistic to me. That way we as herpers are self regulating as well.

 

[Gary O]

Hello Rich.

This is why. 99% of the voids on the market today are made by these hackers. These somehow leaks threw the laws in place. The petition has been worded very carefully so no other organization can add their little things to it. Every step legally has been taken.

Most of the Voids sold here(not by Fauna) on KS(not by KS) and many other classifieds have been made illegaly?

i believe there is one vet that would do this kind of surgery but I am not sure if he/she will even do it any longer. There is a person that had a vet do surgery on a dead animal to see how it was done. The vet said it was hard to tell the difference between the gland and other tissue. This was a vet.

We need to stand as a hooby and not let these hackers have a way to get their voids to people and put their families and themselves in danger.

I say again. The BOI stands for stopping the bad guy.

 

[Gary O]

Instead of a petition asking for more regulations perhaps you should start a tip line.

Make something where people could anonymously let you know who is doing the hacking.

Provide some sort of reward and you'll have bunches of reports in no time at all. Of course, then you have to weed out the fake from the real, but that would seem more realistic to me. That way we as herpers are self regulating as well.

MY friend, We know who they are. At least the main ones.(that are hacking them up)