Questioning the Integrity and Morals of the BOI and FaunaClassfieds.com

[Mustangrde1]

As the Author of the petition I felt I should try and clarify things. First I did read the thread between Gary and Rich and I was also very puzzled why Rich would not take the few minutes to help a cause that will better the hobby. The response of time constraints did appear he just didn’t care. That is the bad thing about computers is type leave much to be desired vs personal words to one another.

The petition IS NOT A BAN. It is in fact however an attempt for us to police ourselves and give more powers to law enforcement to go after people that are causing undo pain and suffering to the animals which we love. Reptiles receive very minimal if any protection under the Animal Cruelty Act. This petition would start affording them the protection that is given too many other animals. It is not asking for new laws per say but is an addition to already existing laws.

Business’s that deal currently in voids do loose much business this is a fact. Many people refuse to buy from these businesses and take their money to others. Taking a stand against persons performing illegal alterations through a surgical procedure without the proper medication required IS in fact the responsibility of the entire community.

Asking for simple verification of surgery performed by a licensed vet is not difficult as Vets are required to have medical documentation. The other requests for the petitions are also safety measures for the entire community herp lovers and non-herp lover.

We do have to police our hobby to try and protect it from dangers that are clear and present. Just look at how many voids are for sale on KS and you can see a daily growing trend. This trend has danger to handlers and to the hobby all over it. We have to be the proactive ones and help write laws to protect our hobby and yes that means working with the government to help write those laws.

If we do not take the steps to protect our hobby then we will have no one but ourselves to blame for the loss of the hobby. Remember we already have enough groups against the keeping of pets. We have pets that scare many people and are feared by them which make us an easy target. Look at the laws currently past on reptile regulations. Do you want more of them or laws written by herpers to protect our hobby?


Ritchie to answer your question. Yes their are laws but unfortuantely reptiles as i stated do not have many of the protections say a dog or cat would. This petiton would simply amend the current animal cruelty statues to protect the reptiles. It is a shame but remember many people are afraid of herps.

 

[HerpVenue]

We ask that any and all of these Altered animal be accompanied by a Notarized sworn affidavit from the Veterinary Surgeon that conducted the operation as well as copies of all medical records. We ask that the Veterinary Surgeon certifies that animal to be harmless and incapable of ever again delivering a venomous bite.
all the above are things the general public can ask for themselves.
Why ask the governemnt to do it for us?

We ask that in order to sell any of these altered animals on or within any {State, Website, Magazine, Reptile Shows or Private Party Transaction} that the vendor/seller provide proof upon request for verification of the Veterinary Surgeon who performed the alteration as so the buyer may contact the Veterinary office for confirmation. This information should be provided to any employee of the State or Federal Government and to the {Website, Magazine, Reptile Shows or Private Parties} for verification.
More things I can ask the seller for

We further pray you to require the use of Microchips to be implanted in the altered animal so as law enforcement agencies can verify the authenticity of these animals. We also ask that these animals biannually have an attempted venom extraction performed by a qualified Veterinary Doctor and the results must be kept by the keeper and the performing Veterinary Doctors for review by Fish and Game officials upon request. more things I can ask for.


I swear I read the petition. And to me it does not make sense.
It is just asking for more regulation on something that is supposedly already illegal.

Regulating something already illegal is a maneuver I expect from PETA (no offense to you).

now lets look at the goals


1. stop the ILLEGAL alteration of those animals by unlicensed untrained individuals that in fact violates numerous state and federal laws.
okay it sounds regulated already. How much more regulation are we gonna ask for. Its like asking for more regulations on murder. It is already illegal.

2. require that any and all of these animals produced after the enactment date of this petition to be "Microchip implanted" so that Law enforcement and Legal Veterinary physicians can monitor these animals for the safety of the keeper and general public at large. one word....PETA esque

5. it will empower law enforcement from any agencies that enforce animal laws. This may include but not be limited too The United States Fish and Wildlife Service, State Departments of Natural Resources/ Fish and Game Departments, United States Department of Agriculture, Humane Societies and Local Law enforcement to arrest any person not legally licensed with the American Veterinary Medical Association and or confiscate any and all animals within the possession of these persons It is already illegal. That means law enforcement has the right to arrest illegal doers. if it is against the lwas of states and of the federal level....I am sure law enforcement already has the "empowerment" to do something about it.


I am sorry. but the more I read it......ahh nevermind. I gotta get up early

 

[Gary O]

Rich Luna

I have a question. Have you looked at the link I put up with how these people make the venomous snake into a void? Do you agree with letting them sell these animals on our classifieds?

 

[DThomas]

What is needed is effective enforcement of the laws preventing vet surgery by unqualified individuals. Your energies would be better spent lobbying for this. More laws, already adding to an over-burdened criminal justice system, is not the answer, effective enforcement of the laws already on the books is.

What are you going to do IF a law like this is passed? Where is the funding to enforce it going to come from? I for one will NOT support any tax increase to add LEO's to enforce a new law when there is already one on the books to cover this sort of thing. You need to start pounding on the doors of the USF&W and not let up until they do something. Only then will you see any results. Get the current legislation enforced then worry about adding to it later. Otherwise, all of this will be one, big, wasted effort.

 

[Wilomn]

MY friend, We know who they are. At least the main ones.(that are hacking them up)

The laws are in place.

Set up your own stings and catch these guys in the act. Money always talks with these guys.

If you can provide enough proof on enough different individuals then someone somewhere will work with you in an official capacity to put them in jail.

I think this would be better handled from within the herp community as a whole than with regulations from the outside.

Are any of you who are against this unauthorized surgery currently using ks? If so it's time to stop.

Put up a ban ks banner on your sites until they stop selling illegally surgically altered snakes.

 

[Gary O]

It is not a new law chief. It is an addition to one so what you said will happen. These people will wake up and see that yes this is wrong and we can do something about it.

 

[HerpVenue]

Animal cruelty laws are animal cruelty laws................ANIMALS
which means all animals. I did not think it talked about all animals except reptiles

Business’s that deal currently in voids do loose much business this is a fact. Many people refuse to buy from these businesses and take their money to others. Taking a stand against persons performing illegal alterations through a surgical procedure without the proper medication required IS in fact the responsibility of the entire community.

Okay it is our responsibility. So why involve the government any further. People are refusing to buy. Which means we are taking a stand.

Asking for simple verification of surgery performed by a licensed vet is not difficult as Vets are required to have medical documentation. The other requests for the petitions are also safety measures for the entire community herp lovers and non-herp lover.

Okay they are required to have the documentation. I presume required means required by law. That means the petition is asking for something we already have.

We do have to police our hobby to try and protect it from dangers that are clear and present. Just look at how many voids are for sale on KS and you can see a daily growing trend. This trend has danger to handlers and to the hobby all over it. We have to be the proactive ones and help write laws to protect our hobby and yes that means working with the government to help write those laws.

okay we have to help the government in writing laws. We gotta help them in writing laws that require vets to have paperwork.....even though they are already required to have paperwork We gottas help them write laws that make this illegal thing even more illegal.

I am of simple mind....... and this whole thing does not make sense to me.


1. We want to stop something that is ALREADY illegal.
2. we want to require vets to have paperwork they are already required to have.
3. We are no longer buying from the "hackers" but we would like the help of the goverment to stop us from doing so.
4. The law enforcement are their to enforce laws. They have the power to enforce laws and we want the government to tell them they have the power to enforce laws.

I have a question. Have you looked at the link I put up with how these people make the venomous snake into a void? Do you agree with letting them sell these animals on our classifieds?

1. yes I have
2. we have laws that make it illegal
3. people are not going to buy from them


anyway I guess my point is we are asking the government for something we already have.

Perhaps enforcing the laws we already have would be a better angle than asking for more laws.
It is the same EXACT problem we have in the gun industry.
more and more laws.
and the laws only affect the law abiding citizens and NOT the illegal doers

 

[WebSlave]

Gary,

I'm a bit incredulous at this thread you have started. Reading between the lines, it appears your request was actually a demand in disguise. And now you are pissed that I rejected your demand?

Quite frankly, no matter how you may think of the venomoid issue, it is not top priority in absolutely everyone's mind. Mine included. Certainly I have no intention of taking up my lance to attack yet another windmill over it. As I have quite enough to deal with at the time, thank you.

Your signature area shows that you obviously have a vested interest in this topic, and certainly this may be a big blip on your radar screen, but that does not make it so automatically for everyone else as well. Perhaps you should just stand back and look at this objectively and consider that your passionate involvement may be more self centered than you realize.

You compare this issue with the highlighted link to the shipping petition. Very well, let's compare it briefly. The shipping petition started out as a specific bad guy post against the shippers (UPS, FedEx, Airborne Express, and USPS) which I started, labelling them as bad guys for the manner in which they are currently treating our business with their discriminatory practices. Certainly fair game for the BOI, I believe.

Is your petition naming names? Pointing to people who are doing these allegedly illegal acts (not in the sense I am defending them, I do not know what legalities are involved)? Not that I can see. Your petition is a legislation issue based on some possible future event. As such, it is much more appropriate for the Laws, Legislative Issues & Alerts section then it is for standard fare in the BOI. The BOI (regardless of what you believe of the moral issues and intregrity of the design) is here for specific instances of people or businesses doing someone else or another business a wrong, or acting in a manner that is exemplary and worthy of kudos for a job well done. The petition you refer to does NONE of these things in any specific sense, but only as a general "boogey man under the bed" sense. Perhaps your concerns are justified, but as mentioned before, not everyone shares this as a universal concern.

I am sorry that you feel so strongly about this that you felt that my opinion infringed on the morals and integrity of this site, and I would have to say that I feel your posting is in poor taste as well as unnecessarily antagonistic. I am always willing to listen to arguments and participate in discussions (time willing), but to post an inflammatory thread such as this to try to twist my arm into doing your bidding is in no one's best interests. If anything, it certainly may have weakened your cause.

 

[Gary O]

The laws are in place.

Set up your own stings and catch these guys in the act. Money always talks with these guys.

If you can provide enough proof on enough different individuals then someone somewhere will work with you in an official capacity to put them in jail.

I think this would be better handled from within the herp community as a whole than with regulations from the outside.

Are any of you who are against this unauthorized surgery currently using ks? If so it's time to stop.

Put up a ban ks banner on your sites until they stop selling illegally surgically altered snakes.

See this IS WHAT I AM ASKING. A site to take a stand!!!! Voids have been sold here I believe. Should we do the same here. I agree about KS. I was offered banner space there and I turned it down!

If these hackers have no where to sell the snakes the snakes do not go through this anymore. See you jsut said for the sites to take a stand. That is what I asked the BOI9fauna to do)

You guys keep saying we as the customer can ask if it was down. I can tell you anything to sell you a snake. If the snake was hacked by a person in their back yard I think that they should not be sold on OUR classifieds. Is this not what you guys are saying regulate ourselves?

 

[DThomas]

It is not a new law chief. It is an addition to one so what you said will happen. These people will wake up and see that yes this is wrong and we can do something about it.

We ask that any and all of these Altered animal be accompanied by a Notarized sworn affidavit from the Veterinary Surgeon that conducted the operation as well as copies of all medical records.We ask that the Veterinary Surgeon certifies that animal to be harmless and incapable of ever again delivering a venomous bite.

We ask that in order to sell any of these altered animals on or within any {State, Website, Magazine, Reptile Shows or Private Party Transaction} that the vendor/seller provide proof upon request for verification of the Veterinary Surgeon who performed the alteration as so the buyer may contact the Veterinary office for confirmation. This information should be provided to any employee of the State or Federal Government and to the {Website, Magazine, Reptile Shows or Private Parties} for verification.

We further pray you to require the use of Microchips to be implanted in the altered animal so as law enforcement agencies can verify the authenticity of these animals. We also ask that these animals biannually have an attempted venom extraction performed by a qualified Veterinary Doctor and the results must be kept by the keeper and the performing Veterinary Doctors for review by Fish and Game officials upon request.

2. require that any and all of these animals produced after the enactment date of this petition to be "Microchip implanted" so that Law enforcement and Legal Veterinary physicians can monitor these animals for the safety of the keeper and general public at large.

So how do you propose the Federal Government require anyone to do anything without making it a LAW first? The Federal Government can not require you to do anything if it is not a law. You ARE asking, with your petition, for them to enact legislation, (A LAW.)

5. it will empower law enforcement from any agencies that enforce animal laws. This may include but not be limited too The United States Fish and Wildlife Service, State Departments of Natural Resources/ Fish and Game Departments, United States Department of Agriculture, Humane Societies and Local Law enforcement to arrest any person not legally licensed with the American Veterinary Medical Association and or confiscate any and all animals within the possession of these persons

Law Enforcement already has this power. The key is to pressure the Agencies into effective enforcement.

 

[Mustangrde1]

Dennis you bring up good points as does Wes. The funding is already their for enforcement as this would simply be directly adding reptiles to current laws a very simple thing to do.

And trust me Ive hounded law enforcement for a long time on a few of these hackers and get no place as i said before reptiles unfortunately do not get the same protection as do dogs or cats. Every state enforces its own laws when and if they see fit. Adding this to the federal animal welfair act is a first step. It will atleast give one agency power to act.

We do not have a perfect sytem that is for sure. But we can try and work to better it.

 

[Wilomn]

I'm saying if you know who these hackers are get pictures/film/video of them doing these operations and send them to the appropiate authorities.

Offer to buy snakes from them through third parties if you are well known as being against this process. Feign an interest in the procedure and capture it forever.

Post the names and contact info of these guys everywhere you can.

If you're selling anything on any site that sells voids, stop using that site. If there are voids here on fauna, and I don't know whether or not there are as I do not keep hots, then raise the issue of it's continuation in a chat or thread or something. If it's illegal I doubt Rich would allow it.

Take some action in a personal fashion and bust these guys.

 

[Gary O]

I will have to talk to some people to see if it will be ok to posts names. but many know them already.

This does effect our hobby. Like it or not. And I am not twisting your arm. i am just useing your BOI for what you say it is for.

Hank Molt has made the largest expo for hots NO Voids. This is a stand. This is what we need to do to these hackers.

Webslave please do me a small favor. Check out the links I posted. The one with the snake rubberbanded to the 2x4.

Can you please tell me where you stand on this. Do you agree that these animals should be sold on our classifieds. This is a petition against the bad guys. Just like when so many people rip of others or send bad animals.

This site is the place people come to get this type of info. Rich you built it. You built it for this type of thing. To get the word out about bad things. (and good lol, lord knows I like the good guy thread more)

Let me ask you one more thing

Is it the time thing or that you just don't want to deal with this? Nothing comes easy man, you of all people should know this..

 

[mattjillson]

Gary, you are WAY off kilter.....

Gary,
Questioning the "integrity" of this site because Webslave is too busy to fight an unwinable cause for you is questionable itself - especially when you are a dealer of Venomous snakes yourself. To say that your post isn't an attack on Webslave is BS at best seeing as he is the real reason the BOI and Fauna functions. If Webslave says he is too busy , he probably is. If you think it is such a "noble" cause you do it. The bottom line is no matter how many people sign a petition for venomous animal/snakes the shipping companies still won't touch it with a whatever foot pole and it comes down to 2 simple facts: IT IS TOO DANGEROUS FOR A $35 SHIPPING FEE AND THEY WON"T BE MAKING ENOUGH MONEY ON IT TO WARRANT THE TROUBLE. But hey, you could be enterprising and start a shipping company yourself that just handles dangerous animals. You might even make $500 a year at it.

-Matt Jillson

 

[HerpVenue]

See you jsut said for the sites to take a stand. That is what I asked the BOI9fauna to do

no asking the BOI fauna to take a stand is.

"DO NOT BUY fom hackers. Let us ban together and boycott them all"

THAT is asking the BOI fauna to take a stand.

What you are asking BOI Fauna is to put up the link so everyone will sign it.
What will signing it do?

1. It will make this illegal thing....illegal.
2. it would require vets to keep paperwork they are required to have.
3. It would stop the people from buying from the people they have already stopped buying from.
4. It would empower law enforcement into enforcing the laws they are already empowered to enforce.

kinda like putting up a petition

huh?asking the federal government to require the US military to defend against all enemies foreign and domestic.

 

[Gary O]

I'm saying if you know who these hackers are get pictures/film/video of them doing these operations and send them to the appropiate authorities.

Offer to buy snakes from them through third parties if you are well known as being against this process. Feign an interest in the procedure and capture it forever.

Post the names and contact info of these guys everywhere you can.

If you're selling anything on any site that sells voids, stop using that site. If there are voids here on fauna, and I don't know whether or not there are as I do not keep hots, then raise the issue of it's continuation in a chat or thread or something. If it's illegal I doubt Rich would allow it.

Take some action in a personal fashion and bust these guys.

Dude, these people put out sites on how to do this(hacking them) look at the site I posted. It has a snake rubberbanded to a 2x4. And like Scott has said. he has tried many many times. Reptiles do not get the protection.

 

[Mustangrde1]

1. It will make this illegal thing....illegal.
2. it would require vets to keep paperwork they are required to have.
3. It would stop the people from buying from the people they have already stopped buying from.
4. It would empower law enforcement into enforcing the laws they are already empowered to enforce.

#1 wrong it will add reptiles to the list hence making it illegall

#2 Yes and the keeper as for verification.

#3 No and Yes. yes people have but thats as is a personal choice of a few people it was said to point out people do take stands and some have.

#4 it would give law enforcement the clear ability to enforce it related to reptiles. As I have said enough times now. REPTILES are not given the same protection under the law many other animals are.

 

[Gary O]

Rich Luna

See I was hoping that is what Rich would do. Sponser the petition(does not cost a dime) and stop illegal voids from being sold here. Also helping out and putting a sticky up for the cause. I would have put an email up in the sticky so all hate mail came to me.

To tell you the truth I have gotten more praise mail over this then anything. I have had people email me saying how thrilled they were. I have gotten I believe 6 or 7 hate emails for the same person. lol

I want Fauna to work with the hobby. This is one of the largest sites out there. Rich was PMed and emailed many times about it and we got nothing and that is why I posted it on the forum. Then he was kinda short with me so I thought about it. Then posted here. I was confused. I though the BOI stood for this.

I did not go to KS because they are all about the $ and not the hobby. They would say yeah we will do it for so much a year. LMAO

I say again I did not question RICH but the site. It stood for something I thought. Maybe I was wrong in thinking that, who knows. I have said in this thread many times I stick up for Rich everywhere I see people bashing him. He is a good guy. I would offer my time to help here with just that sticky(petition).

You can ask many people on my site and many here(maybe) I am a very kind and fair person. I trully hate that 80% of the threads on the BOI are bad guy threads.

I hated to post this but i seen no other way to communicate with Rich and others. This is a touchy subject I know. But IMO if any void goes bad and kills someone the outcome will be bad. REAL BAD. I went to Rich cause I knew what he stood for. If I didn't think he would do it I would have just passed over him like I did with KS.

 

[HerpVenue]

#1 wrong it will add reptiles to the list hence making it illegall
okay you want to add reptiles to the law on the books so it would be illegal to hack them.
I can understand that.

my confusion lies in you guys stements that you made over and over and over.

here is a sample

This is not a ban on voids. This is to stop the illegal garage hacking?

see what I mean?

you guys say you want to stop something that is illegal.
then you say you want the laws revised so it will become illegal.

perhaps the wording of everything needs to be rethaught.

her is another example taken from the "petition goals"


1. stop the ILLEGAL alteration of those animals by unlicensed untrained individuals that in fact violates numerous state and federal laws.

there it is.
stopping something illegal
then it is not illegal so the books need to be changed.
then it is to empower the LEO to enforce laws they are already empowered to enforce.

perhaps a lawyer should have been consulted first.

And like Scott has said. he has tried many many times. Reptiles do not get the protection.

reptiles do not get the protection. therefore hacking them is not illegal.
so you guys want to make something legal into something illegal.

 

[Blackwater Reptiles]

Lemme see if I understand this correctly...

You guys say you "know" the names of people who are performing veterinary procedures at home, without being certified to do so. You believe a petition on the internet, also known as the biggest waste of time in the universe, will convince Federal Legislators (in an election year) to come to the rescue of animals that they DESPISE already... I think I got it.

Call the Humane Society. Call the ASPCA. Call PETA. Call the USDA. Call the DEA (they probably have drugs to medicate the aminals, right?). Call somebody..... internet petitions are a joke. I have never heard of a single one that did anything, other than, make the person(s) who started them feel good about "the cause."

If you have PROOF... post names, get corroboration from people who purchased the animals. If you KNOW they've shipped illegally, call the Postmaster's office. The USPS takes these things very SERIOUSLY.... unlike Senators, Congressmen and or other elected officials. At best, you'll be ignored. At worst, you'll cause another knee-jerk reaction in the form of another reptile BAN.... if they make it ILLEGAL to OWN a venomous snake, then it will solve everything in their eyes... these people want to BAN reptiles. They know most people hate them and would much rather BAN them then "help" you by protecting an animal that they would just as soon cut the head off as look at....... think about it.