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In the past two days I have gotten emails asking about being requested to provide credit card info in order to register and also to make a post in the classifieds forums. PLEASE NOTE: In no instance will this site ask you for this sort of information. The only time any request for payment is made is if you choose to opt-in for a higher membership level, and that is done SOLELY through PayPal. Anything else is coming from a source other than this site. My guess is that this is coming through Google Adsense, but when I can get someone to send me a screen shot of this sort of request, I will know more.
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Responding to email notices you receive.
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In short, DON'T! Email notices are to ONLY alert you of a reply to your private message or your ad on this site. Replying to the email just wastes your time as it goes NOWHERE, and probably pisses off the person you thought you replied to when they think you just ignored them. So instead of complaining to me about your messages not being replied to from this site via email, please READ that email notice that plainly states what you need to do in order to reply to who you are trying to converse with.
Rainwater: New Scam
- Thread starter Seamus Haley
- Start date
sschind
Well-known member
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When they were listing the potential problems they forgot the most important one.
What if Tim Rainwater runs off with all the money.
You might be better off with the Nigerians.
Steve Schindler
What if Tim Rainwater runs off with all the money.
You might be better off with the Nigerians.
Steve Schindler
jenn_jeffery
New member
I have heard bits and pieces of the previous Rainwater scam, but could someone who knows much more about it post a brief (if possible?) summary of what happened for those who have never heard of it?
If I didn't have leopard geckos, and hadn't researched them a good bit at one point, I probably would have never heard of him either, so I'm sure a bit more info would be appreciated....
Thanks
If I didn't have leopard geckos, and hadn't researched them a good bit at one point, I probably would have never heard of him either, so I'm sure a bit more info would be appreciated....
Thanks
Cheryl Marchek AKA JM
New member
Yes, please. More info.
I tried looking it up, but the search engine will not let me look up "Tim Rainwater" and if you just enter "Rainwater" you get a LOT of gecko adds!
This past weekend their was an IRBA here in Pamona. I purchased a lovely little ghost corn from a gentleman. The gentleman told me she is from Rainwater stock. I did not buy her as "Het" anything, so I am not worried about this purchase. But I am very curious as I almost purchased some blood reds from the gentleman. I asked about his adult stock as these baby blood reds did not have the grey heads I understood neonates should have. The gentleman explained that his adult had not obtained his full color yet (At three years) but that he was sure these would be blood reds as his blood and his het blood were purchased from Tim Rainwater.
So while I am greatful I did not purchase these "Blood reds" I am now very curious..........what was the "Rainwater scam"?
I tried looking it up, but the search engine will not let me look up "Tim Rainwater" and if you just enter "Rainwater" you get a LOT of gecko adds!
This past weekend their was an IRBA here in Pamona. I purchased a lovely little ghost corn from a gentleman. The gentleman told me she is from Rainwater stock. I did not buy her as "Het" anything, so I am not worried about this purchase. But I am very curious as I almost purchased some blood reds from the gentleman. I asked about his adult stock as these baby blood reds did not have the grey heads I understood neonates should have. The gentleman explained that his adult had not obtained his full color yet (At three years) but that he was sure these would be blood reds as his blood and his het blood were purchased from Tim Rainwater.
So while I am greatful I did not purchase these "Blood reds" I am now very curious..........what was the "Rainwater scam"?
ReptileKIngdom
New member
ivory blood python
Most of the pictures are obviously of other peoples' animals. For instance the picture of the ivory blood python was of an animal imported by Bushmaster and sold to the Barkers. Here is the link to the original picture.
http://www.kingsnake.com/bushmaster/image3.html
There are others that are also obviously the same animals that are pictured on the Barkers as well as the NERD website. Makes me think scam is the right title for this thread.
Most of the pictures are obviously of other peoples' animals. For instance the picture of the ivory blood python was of an animal imported by Bushmaster and sold to the Barkers. Here is the link to the original picture.
http://www.kingsnake.com/bushmaster/image3.html
There are others that are also obviously the same animals that are pictured on the Barkers as well as the NERD website. Makes me think scam is the right title for this thread.
Question: If there is no trademark notice on a picture is it still protected?
I ask because I spent a great deal of time at the Constrictors Unlimited booth this past weekend, debating the purchase of a super tiger. While there I admired their picture of the leucistic ball. I assume that they own it. The picture was posted in plain view where anyone could could see it, photograph it, etc. There was NO VISABLE trademark/copywrite on it. I always thought that once a picture was posted in public w/o copywrite protection it became public domain. Much the same as someone standing on a public street cannot keep someone from taking their picture, and then using it as they see fit As many "girls gone wild" are now finding out. LOL
The business plan (borrowing money to invest in balls) is actually pretty sound IF they can make it work. The one flaw is that they are going to fast. The market will not bear prices in the several thousands. For it to really work, they should plan on keeping all the stock (animals) for at least 5 years and then flooding the market with low priced animals when they have enough stock to produce enough offspring to do so. Much the same way the Bells and Gourmet Rodent have done in the past.
As far as insurance, I would love to know if anyone has insurance on their collection, and where they got it from. I have tried for years to get some and have never found a viable option. The best quote I ever got was $1700 a year for $10k worth of fire/natural disater coverage. That policy would not cover lost, stolen, ill, or infertile animals. So if anyone has info on reptile insurance PLEASE post it.
I ask because I spent a great deal of time at the Constrictors Unlimited booth this past weekend, debating the purchase of a super tiger. While there I admired their picture of the leucistic ball. I assume that they own it. The picture was posted in plain view where anyone could could see it, photograph it, etc. There was NO VISABLE trademark/copywrite on it. I always thought that once a picture was posted in public w/o copywrite protection it became public domain. Much the same as someone standing on a public street cannot keep someone from taking their picture, and then using it as they see fit As many "girls gone wild" are now finding out. LOL
The business plan (borrowing money to invest in balls) is actually pretty sound IF they can make it work. The one flaw is that they are going to fast. The market will not bear prices in the several thousands. For it to really work, they should plan on keeping all the stock (animals) for at least 5 years and then flooding the market with low priced animals when they have enough stock to produce enough offspring to do so. Much the same way the Bells and Gourmet Rodent have done in the past.
As far as insurance, I would love to know if anyone has insurance on their collection, and where they got it from. I have tried for years to get some and have never found a viable option. The best quote I ever got was $1700 a year for $10k worth of fire/natural disater coverage. That policy would not cover lost, stolen, ill, or infertile animals. So if anyone has info on reptile insurance PLEASE post it.
Clay Davenport
Cerebral Nomad
At least 11 of the ball python pictures belong to the Barkers, and they are all on this page http://www.vpi.com/4VPIInventory/VPIPriceList/BallThumbsGallery(1Jan02).htm
All four blood python pictures also belong to the Barkers, 3 of those being here http://www.vpi.com/4VPIInventory/VPIPriceList/BloodThumbsGallery2.htm
These pages are copyrighted by VPI. While I could be wrong, I seriously doubt Dave would let them use his pictures with no credit to him at all. He is know fo rtaking pride in his pictures and seeking to stop unauthorized use of them, which I fully agree with.
If this is indeed the case, They could be in a good deal of hot water if Dave chose to put them in it.
I assume several people have more than likely informed the Barkers of this, so I have not. Hate to flood them with hundreds of emails from everybody saying essentially the same thing.
If someone would verify here that they have indeed emailed the Barkers that would be good, so we know it has been done.
All four blood python pictures also belong to the Barkers, 3 of those being here http://www.vpi.com/4VPIInventory/VPIPriceList/BloodThumbsGallery2.htm
These pages are copyrighted by VPI. While I could be wrong, I seriously doubt Dave would let them use his pictures with no credit to him at all. He is know fo rtaking pride in his pictures and seeking to stop unauthorized use of them, which I fully agree with.
If this is indeed the case, They could be in a good deal of hot water if Dave chose to put them in it.
I assume several people have more than likely informed the Barkers of this, so I have not. Hate to flood them with hundreds of emails from everybody saying essentially the same thing.
If someone would verify here that they have indeed emailed the Barkers that would be good, so we know it has been done.
Mike and Erica @ MotherGecko
New member
To shed a light on the past situation...
For those a little foggy on the previous scam by Tim Rainwater. Some years back now, Tim produced a second line of albanism in Leopard geckos, hence the original name Rainwater Albino line. Tim sold hundreds of 'definite hets' for the blood line to various breeders. Some of my very good friends and myself were taken directly or indirectly, for LARGE sums of money (myself not so large, thank goodness). Originally the 'DHs' were going for $1500- $1000 each per baby depending on how many you ordered, to obtain the new bloodline when first marketed. Never the less not many of the DHs actually proved out. In fact a friend whom is no longer in the business bought 15 hets of which less than 5 proved out for SERIOUS cash, all supposedly Definite HETS! Of course with Leopard geckos you can prove out genetics in a relatively short amount of time, usually at least from egg to egg in a year, give or take a few. So Tim was in FACT selling normals as 'DHs'. This also caused a big problem for the bigger breeders whom were selling 'DH' and 'possible het' offspring to the smaller breeders like myself from thier pairings. Of course when buying 'possible hets' if they never produce an albino that's the chance you take, unfortunately after quite a few hard earned dollars, my 'Hets' never produced anything more than some nice looking, real expensive yellows and normals. Now most breeders, especially the ones that were taken, refer to all albinos of the Rainwater line as 'Las Vegas' albinos as that's where it was originally produced, and of course noone has to give credit to someone whom literally raped the herp world. There are more stories I have heard about Tim and his unsavory dealings but to only offer hard fact i'll leave it as that. Mike B.
For those a little foggy on the previous scam by Tim Rainwater. Some years back now, Tim produced a second line of albanism in Leopard geckos, hence the original name Rainwater Albino line. Tim sold hundreds of 'definite hets' for the blood line to various breeders. Some of my very good friends and myself were taken directly or indirectly, for LARGE sums of money (myself not so large, thank goodness). Originally the 'DHs' were going for $1500- $1000 each per baby depending on how many you ordered, to obtain the new bloodline when first marketed. Never the less not many of the DHs actually proved out. In fact a friend whom is no longer in the business bought 15 hets of which less than 5 proved out for SERIOUS cash, all supposedly Definite HETS! Of course with Leopard geckos you can prove out genetics in a relatively short amount of time, usually at least from egg to egg in a year, give or take a few. So Tim was in FACT selling normals as 'DHs'. This also caused a big problem for the bigger breeders whom were selling 'DH' and 'possible het' offspring to the smaller breeders like myself from thier pairings. Of course when buying 'possible hets' if they never produce an albino that's the chance you take, unfortunately after quite a few hard earned dollars, my 'Hets' never produced anything more than some nice looking, real expensive yellows and normals. Now most breeders, especially the ones that were taken, refer to all albinos of the Rainwater line as 'Las Vegas' albinos as that's where it was originally produced, and of course noone has to give credit to someone whom literally raped the herp world. There are more stories I have heard about Tim and his unsavory dealings but to only offer hard fact i'll leave it as that. Mike B.
evansnakes
New member
There was an incident where Tim had a bunch of expensive pythons at his shop in Las Vegas. The store was broken into and the stuff was stolen. The police were called. An insurance claim was filed, etc. Tim and a friend of his were then selling a list of animals pretty much identical to the list of stolen ones shortly thereafter at super bargain prices. He was selling albino retics at the breeders expo in Florida so cheap it was crazy. This is second hand info as I was not involved in any of it, and if I am wrong on any of the facts I hope that somebody will point it out to me but this is how I have heard the info from several reputable people at the time it was happening.
Darin Chappell
Senior Hillbilly Member
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There is another Tim Rainwater issue that many may not know about, and it concerns a problem he caused for our fearless leader, the WebSlave. Because it shows a continuation of the same type of less-than-honest behavior on Mr. Rainwater's part, I thought it was prudent to mention it in this thread.
I won't go into all the details, because it was a bit drawn out. However, Rich has written rather extensively about the situation in the description of the origination of his lavender cornsnake line.
As you read through all of that, just understand that the *someone* out west is Tim Rainwater. He is also the one who tried to sell "true" lavenders for $400 per, when Rich's original line hatchlings were going for $150 each, and Tim knew that they were the result of the very same simple recessive gene.
Just one more log to throw onto an ever-growing bonfire of evidence that Tim Rainwater cannot be trusted in any way!
Nice catch, Seamus!
I won't go into all the details, because it was a bit drawn out. However, Rich has written rather extensively about the situation in the description of the origination of his lavender cornsnake line.
As you read through all of that, just understand that the *someone* out west is Tim Rainwater. He is also the one who tried to sell "true" lavenders for $400 per, when Rich's original line hatchlings were going for $150 each, and Tim knew that they were the result of the very same simple recessive gene.
Just one more log to throw onto an ever-growing bonfire of evidence that Tim Rainwater cannot be trusted in any way!
Nice catch, Seamus!
JasonBrennan
Got Mice?
Two Biggest Ball Python Breeders in the World
I would be curious to know the names of the "two largest ball python breeders in the world" that they have this agreement with to buy ALL the offspring produced. Did anyone else catch that?
I would be curious to know the names of the "two largest ball python breeders in the world" that they have this agreement with to buy ALL the offspring produced. Did anyone else catch that?
Clay Davenport
Cerebral Nomad
You can pretty much count the largest ball python breeders in the world on one hand. Kahl, Davis, Sutherlands, VPI, Nerd, maybe Clark, I don't know the volume he produces.
There may be a couple more that do not spring to mind, but never the less it would be a simple matter to verify that claim with a few emails.
There may be a couple more that do not spring to mind, but never the less it would be a simple matter to verify that claim with a few emails.
JasonBrennan
Got Mice?
Clay,
That was my point, lol. I would have liked to see them put the names in the brouchure, but that would have made it too easy to "verify". I am betting if they are pressed about the issue, it will be some breeder from Germany (or some other far off place, since they claim "biggest breeders IN THE WORLD"), but that is just a guess.
That was my point, lol. I would have liked to see them put the names in the brouchure, but that would have made it too easy to "verify". I am betting if they are pressed about the issue, it will be some breeder from Germany (or some other far off place, since they claim "biggest breeders IN THE WORLD"), but that is just a guess.
HerpVenue
New member
If anyone out there has actually contacted the picture owners...please post on here that you have.
I am thinking of informing them......
But I do not want to add to the countless e-mails they MAY already have in regards to this.
Thank You
I am thinking of informing them......
But I do not want to add to the countless e-mails they MAY already have in regards to this.
Thank You
JungleHabitats
New member
hey there .. i have contatced the Barker Via email and by phone message this am to let them know of the use of there photos without any claims to whom they belong. i also included the info off the brochure and contact info. I called the number listed on the brochure and spoke with someone that said there name was "steve" when asked for a last name they said they were just answering the phone. i had let them know i was calliong in refference to the brochure i had been showed and was interested in making a small but sizeable investment .. ( which i am not im not totally stupid) the person said they would be back in contact with me by the weeksend .. so i will post what i fgind out then ... should be interesting as i will at that time let them know that there pictures look a awful lot like some by one of the better known breeders of BP's in the USand ask if they are involved in the producing of these snakes to make it sound like i will be more interested in making a investment with them if the barkers are involved ... i want to see if they acknowledge the barkers in this scam...
Audrina Head
New member
Copyrights
What I learned is that from the moment a new work (photo, web site, etc.) is created, it is protected by copyright laws. A new work is not considered in the public domain unless it is expressly said to be. The main reason for registering copyrights and putting copyright notices on pics, etc., is to make it a lot easier if you ever needed to prove that they are yours.
Oh yeah, that proposal definitaly sounds like a scam. I hope nobody gets taken for $$$.
What I learned is that from the moment a new work (photo, web site, etc.) is created, it is protected by copyright laws. A new work is not considered in the public domain unless it is expressly said to be. The main reason for registering copyrights and putting copyright notices on pics, etc., is to make it a lot easier if you ever needed to prove that they are yours.
Oh yeah, that proposal definitaly sounds like a scam. I hope nobody gets taken for $$$.
Seamus Haley
Big Game Hunter
Rainwater's past scams are numerous and somewhat murky but...
I have heard of the same insurance scam/bargain basement issue with the 'tics that Evan detailed. A great number of breeders were... irate... when he did that, as he dropped the average market price by a good $5000+ on the market value of the morph. This wasn't a case of simply pricing his snakes lower; it was a deliberate action to cause other breeders to lose money after he had already collected the snake's insured value.
The fake hets were a massive one, he also sold many normal animals from completely normal parents as "possible hets", since the morph was big and there was a large amount of resale on some of these animals, other breeders had their reputations affected by his unethical actions.
He collected MASSIVE amounts of money from investors, exactly as this brochure indicates will be done and then... nobody got any returns on any of it. No profit, no original investment back. Just money dissapearing.
I aimed an email at the Barkers, not sure if they went to Daytona or not and when or if they'll comment publicly on the situation.
I thought about calling the number myself but I am currently visiting a friend in Vegas and Rainwater knows (and fears) the phone number I would be calling from, so if he has a caller ID I'd never get to speak to anyone.
It is my understanding that a few copies of the brochure were floating around the Daytona show and may have made their way into the hands of "the right people", those with enough of that near-celebrity status to really make their opinions known if they so choose, so this issue may show up on other websites as well. I urge everyone who's got any information about the situation to hunt down any additional message board threads that may be started on the various forums and add your information to what may already be there. The more people who see the facts behind the facts, the better.
I have heard of the same insurance scam/bargain basement issue with the 'tics that Evan detailed. A great number of breeders were... irate... when he did that, as he dropped the average market price by a good $5000+ on the market value of the morph. This wasn't a case of simply pricing his snakes lower; it was a deliberate action to cause other breeders to lose money after he had already collected the snake's insured value.
The fake hets were a massive one, he also sold many normal animals from completely normal parents as "possible hets", since the morph was big and there was a large amount of resale on some of these animals, other breeders had their reputations affected by his unethical actions.
He collected MASSIVE amounts of money from investors, exactly as this brochure indicates will be done and then... nobody got any returns on any of it. No profit, no original investment back. Just money dissapearing.
I aimed an email at the Barkers, not sure if they went to Daytona or not and when or if they'll comment publicly on the situation.
I thought about calling the number myself but I am currently visiting a friend in Vegas and Rainwater knows (and fears) the phone number I would be calling from, so if he has a caller ID I'd never get to speak to anyone.
It is my understanding that a few copies of the brochure were floating around the Daytona show and may have made their way into the hands of "the right people", those with enough of that near-celebrity status to really make their opinions known if they so choose, so this issue may show up on other websites as well. I urge everyone who's got any information about the situation to hunt down any additional message board threads that may be started on the various forums and add your information to what may already be there. The more people who see the facts behind the facts, the better.
ReptileKIngdom
New member
photo copyrights
I myself do a bit of professional wildlife photography and have sold many photos to Reptiles, Reptile & Amphibian, Reptile Hobbyist, etc. The last statement about when a work is created the copyright is with the creator is completely accurate. On the other hand, say video is shot in the public domain and on the tape they pan past photos on the wall, such as the same photos in the brosure, this is not using the photo for a purpose, especially capital gain, they just happened to come up on the film. That type of footage is not the same and does not pertain to the same thing. Reprinting the photo onto a hand out used for capital gain and calling it your own is a direct violation of copyright law.
I used to breed leopard geckos and invested in some of these ground floor hets myself, only to produce some nice high yellows. It is a tough thing to swallow but sometimes you make good decisions and some times you don't. I will tell you one thing, it is probably one of the reasons i do not work with leopard geckos anymore.
I myself do a bit of professional wildlife photography and have sold many photos to Reptiles, Reptile & Amphibian, Reptile Hobbyist, etc. The last statement about when a work is created the copyright is with the creator is completely accurate. On the other hand, say video is shot in the public domain and on the tape they pan past photos on the wall, such as the same photos in the brosure, this is not using the photo for a purpose, especially capital gain, they just happened to come up on the film. That type of footage is not the same and does not pertain to the same thing. Reprinting the photo onto a hand out used for capital gain and calling it your own is a direct violation of copyright law.
I used to breed leopard geckos and invested in some of these ground floor hets myself, only to produce some nice high yellows. It is a tough thing to swallow but sometimes you make good decisions and some times you don't. I will tell you one thing, it is probably one of the reasons i do not work with leopard geckos anymore.