Bill & Amy
Harley Rider
Lets say you get an email back, how do you prove its not him? I can setup an yahoo or hotmail email address and send you a email signed Razz?
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Responding to email notices you receive.
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In short, DON'T! Email notices are to ONLY alert you of a reply to your private message or your ad on this site. Replying to the email just wastes your time as it goes NOWHERE, and probably pisses off the person you thought you replied to when they think you just ignored them. So instead of complaining to me about your messages not being replied to from this site via email, please READ that email notice that plainly states what you need to do in order to reply to who you are trying to converse with.
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IMPORTANT! PLEASE READ!! About the Google Adsense ads being displayed
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Posted 08/15/2025
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Yeah, I know. They are a pain in the butt. But they pay the bills to keep my server running. Just a fact of life, I am afraid.
Want to get rid of them? Simple. Just become a Contributor level member or above and they will be gone. -> Please click HERE."
Is that too much for me to ask of you to keep this site running? Well, sorry about that. I too wish I could get everything for free. But alas.....
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Addendum: 01/10/2026
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Google Adsense ad revenue for December, 2025 was just $30 over the cost of the lease for the server running this site. So, in effect, the money providing the incentive for me to continue running this site is coming SOLELY from the paid memberships and sponsorships here. Which honestly ain't much....
Ray's Reptilia and North Port Reptiles... one and the same?
- Thread starter Heika
- Start date
scalesnstuff
New member
email
Once i have received the email my email app or Dreamhost (my web host) supplies me with the name that it was registered with. If he did not use an alias then i will know, if he did then I will not. I am hoping that the person will post here, most of you are familiar with ray and could probably tell by style etc if it is him.
Once i have received the email my email app or Dreamhost (my web host) supplies me with the name that it was registered with. If he did not use an alias then i will know, if he did then I will not. I am hoping that the person will post here, most of you are familiar with ray and could probably tell by style etc if it is him.
Well, well, well
I've been lurking here and reading this information on this great guy (sarcasm intended!) In checking his website today, there is no more Hall of Shame listed on the site that I can find. Hmmm, do we think maybe he got a little scared?
I've been lurking here and reading this information on this great guy (sarcasm intended!) In checking his website today, there is no more Hall of Shame listed on the site that I can find. Hmmm, do we think maybe he got a little scared?
Chameleon Company
New member
Hey Kelly and others,
I am not here to stir the pot or defend Ray, but I do feel a need to say that before I post. Considering the circumstances, I have no trouble understanding your anger at the way Ray has characterized you with his "Shame" thing, the labels, etc. I think that your actions to bring legal weight to bear on Ray (contacting all the agencies that you did), was motivated in part by his decision to post your name as he did. I think you stated such earlier. It also seems that the recent frenzy of complaints, very likely spear-headed by yours, created the situation where the need for new identities was necessary for business survival, and which led to the "outing" of these identities in this thread. If Ray's posting of your name was the straw (or stick) that broke the camel's back in bringing this final flood of bad tidings on him, then it may serve as a wonderful example of "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" ........ I love the old sayings and adages.
Again, I sympathize completely with how you have been mischaracterized. And you may still be able to cause all sorts of problems for Ray, especially if you are willing to commit money in a legal manner, and even if not prevail, cause Ray to spend money likewise. I say "not prevail", because the burden to prove that you have been libeled is very high. You know that you are not a thief. But you are in possession of a turtle for which you received a full refund. This is not about the related costs and difficulties of shipping the animal back, but for so long as you have both the refund and the turtle, the courts are likely to not slap down Ray for having his opinion that you are a thief, as again, you have the refund and the product. People need to realize that while you had medical bills, the true way to recover for them if you and Ray did not have an agreement, would be by lawsuit. If you are keeping the turtle, or the refund, to cover those costs, you have essentially arbitrarily seized an asset without a court order. Much of this is not cut-and-dry, but again, proving libel has a very high threshold.
I would ask that any who want to join the discussion and "debate" the "libel-not libel" threshold do so based on experience with attorneys and the courts on such issues. I know what I am saying, that Ray can call Kelly a "thief", sounds unfair. Kelly's situation is certainly not libel "per-se", meaning a blatant lie, as Ray has a basis for his opinion. A "per-se" case would be far easier to prove from Kelly's position.
Now, can Ray sue you for either the turtle or the money? He could, but there's not a chance in Hell he would prevail, because of the circumstances. But can he call you a thief, provide the basic details for his opinion, and stay well within the burden of proof you would need to find it libel or slander? You do not need to be a convicted thief for someone to call you one. They need only a reasonable basis. Kelly, I truly applaud your actions, and I would hope that Ray would realize that "payback is a mother .....", and take down his tit-for-tat "wall of shame". Good luck in all.
I am not here to stir the pot or defend Ray, but I do feel a need to say that before I post. Considering the circumstances, I have no trouble understanding your anger at the way Ray has characterized you with his "Shame" thing, the labels, etc. I think that your actions to bring legal weight to bear on Ray (contacting all the agencies that you did), was motivated in part by his decision to post your name as he did. I think you stated such earlier. It also seems that the recent frenzy of complaints, very likely spear-headed by yours, created the situation where the need for new identities was necessary for business survival, and which led to the "outing" of these identities in this thread. If Ray's posting of your name was the straw (or stick) that broke the camel's back in bringing this final flood of bad tidings on him, then it may serve as a wonderful example of "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" ........ I love the old sayings and adages.
Again, I sympathize completely with how you have been mischaracterized. And you may still be able to cause all sorts of problems for Ray, especially if you are willing to commit money in a legal manner, and even if not prevail, cause Ray to spend money likewise. I say "not prevail", because the burden to prove that you have been libeled is very high. You know that you are not a thief. But you are in possession of a turtle for which you received a full refund. This is not about the related costs and difficulties of shipping the animal back, but for so long as you have both the refund and the turtle, the courts are likely to not slap down Ray for having his opinion that you are a thief, as again, you have the refund and the product. People need to realize that while you had medical bills, the true way to recover for them if you and Ray did not have an agreement, would be by lawsuit. If you are keeping the turtle, or the refund, to cover those costs, you have essentially arbitrarily seized an asset without a court order. Much of this is not cut-and-dry, but again, proving libel has a very high threshold.
I would ask that any who want to join the discussion and "debate" the "libel-not libel" threshold do so based on experience with attorneys and the courts on such issues. I know what I am saying, that Ray can call Kelly a "thief", sounds unfair. Kelly's situation is certainly not libel "per-se", meaning a blatant lie, as Ray has a basis for his opinion. A "per-se" case would be far easier to prove from Kelly's position.
Now, can Ray sue you for either the turtle or the money? He could, but there's not a chance in Hell he would prevail, because of the circumstances. But can he call you a thief, provide the basic details for his opinion, and stay well within the burden of proof you would need to find it libel or slander? You do not need to be a convicted thief for someone to call you one. They need only a reasonable basis. Kelly, I truly applaud your actions, and I would hope that Ray would realize that "payback is a mother .....", and take down his tit-for-tat "wall of shame". Good luck in all.
Scott Ashton
Gnitubirtnoc Rebmem
Chameleon Company said:
Although opinion is recognized as a defense within most jurisdications, in this case the wording on the website would likely be a determining factor as to whether the statement was rendered as an opinion or implied as a fact.
In the case of the latter, you would indeed meet the burden to prevail in a libel case against Mr. Torres as the opinion defense would not apply.
I would strongly encourage you to consult an attorney qualified in such matters.
kstigile
New member
Jim,
I appreciate your opinion, and can see where it comes from. Not to defend myself, but more to clarify, here is why I did what I did, and to answer some inferred questions
.
Yes, I was angry at Ray for posting my full name and address on a publicly viewed website calling me a thief. I still am angry even though he only took down the page this morning after my post at 8:55 am EST. Which means it has been there for quite awhile mentioned as a thief, without my any mention of WHY things happened the way they did.
Yes, my reputation is/was at stake in the reptile hobbyist world, as I am myself beginning a fairly profitable local breeding business myself, and have purchased many reptiles online. Luckily, Ray's reputation proceeds him, so his statements would most likely be overlooked, but in a legal sense, he still put my reputation on the line as a good person to do business with, either as a buyer or a seller.
Yes, I was angry that he began acting like a child instead of an ethical business person in his emails with me when I would simply ask a question, and even offered to let him find a reasonable solution. We (Ray and I) are both adults, and business people, and I feel that, even in my anger, I treated him with a respect her certainly did not show in return, nor did he probably deserve it. As proven in many other posts on this forum alone from well before my first post on this board ever yesterday, his child-like emails and profane emails are not new to him though.
My main concerns though, in all honesty, were the conditions of the animals he has living with him, and certainly his shipping methods. If my one poor baby was shipped like that, I could only imagine the state that so many others were shipped, or even cared for after finding out the diet that they had the tortoises on. (If you know anything about or research red-footed tortoises, you will know that red leaf lettuce is one of the worst things you can give, especially as a pure staple diet). I would not have made the calls I made if I did not have several good friends in the reptile business URGE me to make them, even digging up phone numbers to places that I could call to help stop this situation. I just wanted to see him stop shipping like he does, take care of his animals correctly (the chips in my baby's shell were not from shipping, verified by the vet, these were older), and to take my name off his website. But the more I learned that I could do to help the ANIMALS in his care, I was more motivated to take this on for them. I have been an animal rights activist for a long time now, and, yes, although this was MOTIVATED by my name and address going public, that is not what truly continued my quest to have him shut down. It truly was the animals he had left in his care.
As you most likely saw, I emailed him repeatedly, did research about the issues at hand, even asked for his opinions/advice on how to fix things, and tried to remain professional no matter how he acted. I was even willing to accept the paypal denial and "eat the costs" so to speak of not only a sick tortoise, but the vet bills that have incurred since. It was Paypal's decision, not mine, to reopen the case and give Ray the ultimatum of refunding my money because of his violation of their TOS rules in his shipping methods. All I wanted my money back for was to help cover some of the vet costs, and I COULD not return the animal unless I felt like driving down to Florida from Maryland to hand deliver it to him because of federal shipping laws regarding turtles/tortoises that have been beaten to death here already.
I was not even going to call the postmaster investigator until my local postmaster told me what could have/most likely did happen to our poor baby during his shipping process since Ray never even labeled the box as fragile, much less a live animal. I also did not know it was illegal to ship through the USPS (unethical, yes, but illegal i did not) until she told me. Yes, the "straw" so to speak was him publicly denouncing me on his website. And after the things I heard from the vet about what could end up happening to him over the next few months because of residual effects from bad care before shipping, and the shipping method/care used during shipping.
Now, not to get too legal, but if you do a simple google search on "defamation of character" you will find that it is defined as a written (libel) or oral (slander) statement made in fact. A good example that was given to show the difference was this:
1. Not libel/slander: "All telemarketers are crooks."
2. Libel/Slander: "ABC Telemarketing company is a bad business to deal with."
3. Questionable: "ABC Telemarketing company is a bad business to deal with because I don't like the way they handle things."
Ray's site clearly states (as well as several of his forum posts here and other places, and in emails to me) that I AM a thief, making it a statement of fact.
Yes, there are free-speech laws, and yes, we probably all do this at some time or another without even realizing it, but when you bring it into a public arena as a pure statement of fact as he did, this is where he crossed a HUGE legal line. As far as Ray not having a basis "per-SE," because he has a basis for his opinion of me stealing, he is mad that he was FORCED because of his unethical business manner that violated another company's TOS rules to refund me. That is not stealing. He does not know me, has never done business with me, does not do business with others that I have done business with, nor has any factual proof or backing for a statement that he issued as what is known in the courts as, well, a statement of fact. I say these things not only from a simple google search, but also in several very long conversations with my business lawyer since this situation has occurred.
Would it cost me money to fight Ray? It might, and it might even cost me a whole lot of money depending on the lawyer I would use, sure. Would it be worth it, obviously not monetarily, as I would probably lose more money out of fighting it than what I would get out of it. Would it make sense for Ray to sue me, not at all. Even if he had the money to do so, which he very well might, it was less than $200, and we are in totally different states, so he would have to file in the state of Maryland, and the court case would need to be here, which would require his time and travel expenses. It would cost him more to sue me than he would ever get back. Will either of us actually do it, probably not, but the reason I told Ray that I would do this was because I can do it, and if the issues keep continuing and building and he does not start taking care of his animals correctly, I DO have backing to help me persue this in the legal system, and have been told by several lawyers (not just my own), that my chances of winning are well above 80%. A class action lawsuit would bring those chances to almost 99%. You said Ray would need a reasonable basis to call me a thief, and according to the law and my actions, he does not have a single viable base for his statements.
If anyone noticed, this post had been going on for several days before I chimed in, so this "rash of complaints" about Ray have been going on for what looks like over a year. The new identities and such he has created have most likely been spear-headed by my actions, as my actions caused him to not be ALLOWED to continue to conduct business the way he had been before under his Ray's Repitilia name with most major shippers, and probably the state of Florida is having some issues with his business ethics Not to mention the reputation he has built for himself over the years for his unethical, childish behavior that has caused his own downfall. I know they are checking into his licensing and permits carried. Unfortunately, I will most likely never know those results. Luckily for the animals in his care, and for the people that do deal with him in bad business transactions, Florida is a VERY tough state on the reptile trade (with good reason), and the LEAST infraction on their rules is not a good thing. Hopefully Ray has all of his ducks in a row, and each one better have the right permit hanging out of it's mouth for his sake.
I want to thank everyone in advance for their support and thoughtfulness given in this situation, as well as the time it takes to read my horribly long posts for the most part. LOL. We have been lucky, and with proper vet treatment, some medications, some extra TLC and time, we will have our little Sparky back to a good health. I still say that her personality is great, and we truly enjoy her company in our household of animals (animals include the children and my fiance, just FYI lol), and we hope to enjoy it for a long time to come. I think in all of this I have learned a HUGE lesson - to check the BOI now that I know it is here (I did not know before this), and maybe do a little more research into these guys with the prices that are "too good to be true."
Kelly
PS - if anyone would like to understand the reason why the website registration comes up the way it does for all of Ray's stuff and for the DJ friend that one person has, I can explain it. But I figured this reply got long enough...lol
I appreciate your opinion, and can see where it comes from. Not to defend myself, but more to clarify, here is why I did what I did, and to answer some inferred questions
.
Yes, I was angry at Ray for posting my full name and address on a publicly viewed website calling me a thief. I still am angry even though he only took down the page this morning after my post at 8:55 am EST. Which means it has been there for quite awhile mentioned as a thief, without my any mention of WHY things happened the way they did.
Yes, my reputation is/was at stake in the reptile hobbyist world, as I am myself beginning a fairly profitable local breeding business myself, and have purchased many reptiles online. Luckily, Ray's reputation proceeds him, so his statements would most likely be overlooked, but in a legal sense, he still put my reputation on the line as a good person to do business with, either as a buyer or a seller.
Yes, I was angry that he began acting like a child instead of an ethical business person in his emails with me when I would simply ask a question, and even offered to let him find a reasonable solution. We (Ray and I) are both adults, and business people, and I feel that, even in my anger, I treated him with a respect her certainly did not show in return, nor did he probably deserve it. As proven in many other posts on this forum alone from well before my first post on this board ever yesterday, his child-like emails and profane emails are not new to him though.
My main concerns though, in all honesty, were the conditions of the animals he has living with him, and certainly his shipping methods. If my one poor baby was shipped like that, I could only imagine the state that so many others were shipped, or even cared for after finding out the diet that they had the tortoises on. (If you know anything about or research red-footed tortoises, you will know that red leaf lettuce is one of the worst things you can give, especially as a pure staple diet). I would not have made the calls I made if I did not have several good friends in the reptile business URGE me to make them, even digging up phone numbers to places that I could call to help stop this situation. I just wanted to see him stop shipping like he does, take care of his animals correctly (the chips in my baby's shell were not from shipping, verified by the vet, these were older), and to take my name off his website. But the more I learned that I could do to help the ANIMALS in his care, I was more motivated to take this on for them. I have been an animal rights activist for a long time now, and, yes, although this was MOTIVATED by my name and address going public, that is not what truly continued my quest to have him shut down. It truly was the animals he had left in his care.
As you most likely saw, I emailed him repeatedly, did research about the issues at hand, even asked for his opinions/advice on how to fix things, and tried to remain professional no matter how he acted. I was even willing to accept the paypal denial and "eat the costs" so to speak of not only a sick tortoise, but the vet bills that have incurred since. It was Paypal's decision, not mine, to reopen the case and give Ray the ultimatum of refunding my money because of his violation of their TOS rules in his shipping methods. All I wanted my money back for was to help cover some of the vet costs, and I COULD not return the animal unless I felt like driving down to Florida from Maryland to hand deliver it to him because of federal shipping laws regarding turtles/tortoises that have been beaten to death here already.
I was not even going to call the postmaster investigator until my local postmaster told me what could have/most likely did happen to our poor baby during his shipping process since Ray never even labeled the box as fragile, much less a live animal. I also did not know it was illegal to ship through the USPS (unethical, yes, but illegal i did not) until she told me. Yes, the "straw" so to speak was him publicly denouncing me on his website. And after the things I heard from the vet about what could end up happening to him over the next few months because of residual effects from bad care before shipping, and the shipping method/care used during shipping.
Now, not to get too legal, but if you do a simple google search on "defamation of character" you will find that it is defined as a written (libel) or oral (slander) statement made in fact. A good example that was given to show the difference was this:
1. Not libel/slander: "All telemarketers are crooks."
2. Libel/Slander: "ABC Telemarketing company is a bad business to deal with."
3. Questionable: "ABC Telemarketing company is a bad business to deal with because I don't like the way they handle things."
Ray's site clearly states (as well as several of his forum posts here and other places, and in emails to me) that I AM a thief, making it a statement of fact.
Yes, there are free-speech laws, and yes, we probably all do this at some time or another without even realizing it, but when you bring it into a public arena as a pure statement of fact as he did, this is where he crossed a HUGE legal line. As far as Ray not having a basis "per-SE," because he has a basis for his opinion of me stealing, he is mad that he was FORCED because of his unethical business manner that violated another company's TOS rules to refund me. That is not stealing. He does not know me, has never done business with me, does not do business with others that I have done business with, nor has any factual proof or backing for a statement that he issued as what is known in the courts as, well, a statement of fact. I say these things not only from a simple google search, but also in several very long conversations with my business lawyer since this situation has occurred.
Would it cost me money to fight Ray? It might, and it might even cost me a whole lot of money depending on the lawyer I would use, sure. Would it be worth it, obviously not monetarily, as I would probably lose more money out of fighting it than what I would get out of it. Would it make sense for Ray to sue me, not at all. Even if he had the money to do so, which he very well might, it was less than $200, and we are in totally different states, so he would have to file in the state of Maryland, and the court case would need to be here, which would require his time and travel expenses. It would cost him more to sue me than he would ever get back. Will either of us actually do it, probably not, but the reason I told Ray that I would do this was because I can do it, and if the issues keep continuing and building and he does not start taking care of his animals correctly, I DO have backing to help me persue this in the legal system, and have been told by several lawyers (not just my own), that my chances of winning are well above 80%. A class action lawsuit would bring those chances to almost 99%. You said Ray would need a reasonable basis to call me a thief, and according to the law and my actions, he does not have a single viable base for his statements.
If anyone noticed, this post had been going on for several days before I chimed in, so this "rash of complaints" about Ray have been going on for what looks like over a year. The new identities and such he has created have most likely been spear-headed by my actions, as my actions caused him to not be ALLOWED to continue to conduct business the way he had been before under his Ray's Repitilia name with most major shippers, and probably the state of Florida is having some issues with his business ethics Not to mention the reputation he has built for himself over the years for his unethical, childish behavior that has caused his own downfall. I know they are checking into his licensing and permits carried. Unfortunately, I will most likely never know those results. Luckily for the animals in his care, and for the people that do deal with him in bad business transactions, Florida is a VERY tough state on the reptile trade (with good reason), and the LEAST infraction on their rules is not a good thing. Hopefully Ray has all of his ducks in a row, and each one better have the right permit hanging out of it's mouth for his sake.
I want to thank everyone in advance for their support and thoughtfulness given in this situation, as well as the time it takes to read my horribly long posts for the most part. LOL. We have been lucky, and with proper vet treatment, some medications, some extra TLC and time, we will have our little Sparky back to a good health. I still say that her personality is great, and we truly enjoy her company in our household of animals (animals include the children and my fiance, just FYI lol), and we hope to enjoy it for a long time to come. I think in all of this I have learned a HUGE lesson - to check the BOI now that I know it is here (I did not know before this), and maybe do a little more research into these guys with the prices that are "too good to be true."
Kelly
PS - if anyone would like to understand the reason why the website registration comes up the way it does for all of Ray's stuff and for the DJ friend that one person has, I can explain it. But I figured this reply got long enough...lol
Chameleon Company
New member
Kelly, I have no problems what-so-ever with your actions.
In reading your post I do get an impression though that maybe you thought that I questioned whether you had adequate ethical basis to take the actons that you did against Ray, or maybe did too much. Trust that is not how I felt in any of what you did, however ways your motivaton was split between personal reasons and concern for animals or others. Any of those areas provided more than enough reason in my book. What I wanted to suggest (primarily to Ray, but to others as well) is that the decision to use his Wall of Shame to "get even" was not wise, as it made it personal, which is a great motivator for those you target! Others have similar pages, and my advice would be to only use such things for the completely factual situations, such as bad checks, pure scams, etc.
My advice to Ray would also be that it is not good business to antagonize people who can expose what you would rather keep hidden. Everything has its pros and cons, but his participation here further aroused a very efficient group of internet sleuths, who will now stay motivated for some time.
As for shipping the turtle:
All of us would agree that any decision to sue Ray for libel will only be made after consultation with an attorney and much thought. I think that I saw Ray throw around a couple of threats to sue as well, and like to interject every now and then that it is not as cut and dry and easy as some might think. With a brother and business partner who is a full fledged business attorney, and a daughter in law school, and more than one unrelated attorney who probably owe me their first-born, I am comfortable how I stated things. But through it all, do not think for a moment that I have any qualms with any actions you have taken, for I do not.
In reading your post I do get an impression though that maybe you thought that I questioned whether you had adequate ethical basis to take the actons that you did against Ray, or maybe did too much. Trust that is not how I felt in any of what you did, however ways your motivaton was split between personal reasons and concern for animals or others. Any of those areas provided more than enough reason in my book. What I wanted to suggest (primarily to Ray, but to others as well) is that the decision to use his Wall of Shame to "get even" was not wise, as it made it personal, which is a great motivator for those you target! Others have similar pages, and my advice would be to only use such things for the completely factual situations, such as bad checks, pure scams, etc.
My advice to Ray would also be that it is not good business to antagonize people who can expose what you would rather keep hidden. Everything has its pros and cons, but his participation here further aroused a very efficient group of internet sleuths, who will now stay motivated for some time.
As for shipping the turtle:
I am not saying that you should ship it back, as I do not feel that is the correct thing to do, but it need not be driven, and while not the easiest thing to do, it can be shipped.
All of us would agree that any decision to sue Ray for libel will only be made after consultation with an attorney and much thought. I think that I saw Ray throw around a couple of threats to sue as well, and like to interject every now and then that it is not as cut and dry and easy as some might think. With a brother and business partner who is a full fledged business attorney, and a daughter in law school, and more than one unrelated attorney who probably owe me their first-born, I am comfortable how I stated things. But through it all, do not think for a moment that I have any qualms with any actions you have taken, for I do not.
kstigile
New member
Jim,
I honestly took no offense at all in what you said, sorry if it came across that I did. I think I posted that more for the "other people" out there, as you did. As a warning about what can/will happen if you do what Ray does.
As for the idea of wording on his hall of shame, I took 3 seperate screenshots (had to in order to get the entire page). Here is the exact page shots as of about 5 minutes ago. You will notice his use of the words "will get ripped off" and "thief" about me and the others on his board. I'll let him speak for himself, and dig his own hole with these...
Kelly
I honestly took no offense at all in what you said, sorry if it came across that I did. I think I posted that more for the "other people" out there, as you did. As a warning about what can/will happen if you do what Ray does.
As for the idea of wording on his hall of shame, I took 3 seperate screenshots (had to in order to get the entire page). Here is the exact page shots as of about 5 minutes ago. You will notice his use of the words "will get ripped off" and "thief" about me and the others on his board. I'll let him speak for himself, and dig his own hole with these...
Kelly
Chameleon Company
New member
Hey Kelly,
I didn't even want you to think for a moment that I had any problems with things. I waste plenty of my own time writing to the larger audience sometimes too (all 10 of them). The downside of these "shame" lists almost always overwhelms the upside, and this has been a perfect example. Ray's business practices have gotten him in trouble. I think this thread is a great example of several things, not the least of which is the short-sightedness of upsetting folks. I can't tell you that Ray is going to see that he needs to make changes, and if so, what he would think those changes should be. Maybe something noble like being more forthright with his customers, or less combative in disagreements. Maybe something less noble like hiding ownership of new internet sites better so that he isn't found-out so quickly the next time. Often when people get caught doing things wrong, they may not admit to it at the time, and will defend the indefensible, but they do manage to improve their ways moving forward .... sometimes. There's a certain critical mass of ill-will that all in business have to try to stay below, if not way below, lest everything start to fall in at once. I think its been a bad month for Ray, all of his own doing because he flaunted the critical mass for a long time. BTW, internet sales are important to all of us. I still hope he turns things around.
I didn't even want you to think for a moment that I had any problems with things. I waste plenty of my own time writing to the larger audience sometimes too (all 10 of them). The downside of these "shame" lists almost always overwhelms the upside, and this has been a perfect example. Ray's business practices have gotten him in trouble. I think this thread is a great example of several things, not the least of which is the short-sightedness of upsetting folks. I can't tell you that Ray is going to see that he needs to make changes, and if so, what he would think those changes should be. Maybe something noble like being more forthright with his customers, or less combative in disagreements. Maybe something less noble like hiding ownership of new internet sites better so that he isn't found-out so quickly the next time. Often when people get caught doing things wrong, they may not admit to it at the time, and will defend the indefensible, but they do manage to improve their ways moving forward .... sometimes. There's a certain critical mass of ill-will that all in business have to try to stay below, if not way below, lest everything start to fall in at once. I think its been a bad month for Ray, all of his own doing because he flaunted the critical mass for a long time. BTW, internet sales are important to all of us. I still hope he turns things around.
scalesnstuff
New member
Snake Depot
Ok, I have dug and dug and dug.
Not only are they in the same state (which was not rare) but they are in the same county, Rays Reptilia in Ft Meyers and all the newspaper in the pics on snake depot are from Bardenton (one of the papers there) which according to google makes it Lee County. I am 100 percent sure, I take back my previous post.
Ok, I have dug and dug and dug.
Not only are they in the same state (which was not rare) but they are in the same county, Rays Reptilia in Ft Meyers and all the newspaper in the pics on snake depot are from Bardenton (one of the papers there) which according to google makes it Lee County. I am 100 percent sure, I take back my previous post.
Rebel Dragons
Enjoys his quiet time.
Gecko_Den said:
One little correction........
Actually the Bradenton address is in Manatee County and the Ft Myers address is in Lee County. Bradenton and Ft Myers are about 90 miles from each other.
kstigile
New member
Interesting
well, if you happened to know this, ray was advertising on his site and his forum that he was getting a 7,000sq ft facility to house the reptiles. he never mentioned where, but maybe thats the address for northpoint? that or he just used a friend's address. all other signs point to that organization being the same as ray's reptilia.
anyone know where ray went? suddenly he disappeared again since he was called out so drastically...lol
kelly
well, if you happened to know this, ray was advertising on his site and his forum that he was getting a 7,000sq ft facility to house the reptiles. he never mentioned where, but maybe thats the address for northpoint? that or he just used a friend's address. all other signs point to that organization being the same as ray's reptilia.
anyone know where ray went? suddenly he disappeared again since he was called out so drastically...lol
kelly
Mike Greathouse
Reptilian Dreams
Rebel Dragons said:
Let me start by saying that I don't know either of the parties involved in this thread, and I have not read this thread in it's entirety.
For what it's worth,
I drive past this address on Hwy 64 E every day.
4654 SR 64 E is the address for The UPS Store.
#107 is most likely one of their Post Office boxes.
This is not the location of any kind of 7000 sf facility.
I find it pretty hard to imagine that Ray would be driving all the way to Bradenton from Ft Myers to check this box. Is it possible that he simply set up the domain or the hosting for Northport Reptiles?
I know I have done web sites for other people where I set up their domain and hosting for them. In some cases, I have remained listed as the contact for those sites.
Just some food for thought.
Scott Ashton
Gnitubirtnoc Rebmem
kstigile said:
Coincidentally, on a well-known breeder's website there is a section that talks about their 7,000 square foot breeding facility.
Maybe Ray just likes to borrow from others.
Zoo Supply
ZoologicalSupply.com
I love how on the about us page he says all animals are captive bred from his breeding stock...give me a break!
TOM
TOM
Bill & Amy
Harley Rider
scalesnstuff said:
Did you ever receive any email?
scalesnstuff
New member
Email
I never did. In a way I was hoping that this site was legit. I found a way to check the location of the web site. I can't post it then he will figure it out but I will PM it to you.
I never did. In a way I was hoping that this site was legit. I found a way to check the location of the web site. I can't post it then he will figure it out but I will PM it to you.
liquidleaf
New member
I have also done a 'save web page, complete' for the hall-of-shame web page, should Mr. Ray say it's all photoshop (the page is still there). However, when it comes to legal matters, unless he owns his own web server (which he doesn't), server logs can be requested from all major hosting companies that can show what files were where, and when, so even if Ray deleted that page right now, the record of its existence would not. Muaahahaha, there's a lot of resourceful souls on Fauna, and more than a handful of us know our way around a computer, and boy does that resourcefulness come out when someone attempts a scam....
Ray illegally shipped a damaged, sick turtle to Kelly. In this case, seller beware - retailers are required to know shipping laws and regulations. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse, and therefore Ray forfeited rights to the turtle. Unless he wants to go pick it up in person... His mistake, he should learn from it, though since Ray is known for this type of shipping, that is unlikely.
As an example - say a reptile retailer sold and shipped an animal to Canada without the appropriate paperwork. The package is stopped at Customs and seized. The retailer doesn't have his animal any longer, and the buyer is absolutely NOT responsible. If I were Kelly, I would also not want to risk an illegal shipment to return an animal, and if the animal was subpar, she had more than one reason to request a refund.
If Ray was any kind of upstanding businessman, he would have offered the refund and an apology upon learning of his mistake and Kelly's disappointment at the quality of the animal, and logically allowed Kelly to keep the turtle since shipping was a big enough issue for PayPal to raise flags for shipping regulations. The fact that the "hall of shame" exists -and for such petty small amounts.... is a great indicator of character (ie Ray seems to value a buck over customer satisfaction). To whine like a child over customers who have had to seek (and received) refunds??? It boggles the mind. Write such transactions off in your business's taxes! Assuming that you are above-the-board for all of those types of things...
Anyway, that was a long ramble. Just because the web seems to be a free-for-all doesn't mean it is. Records are kept and people are liable for those things they post online, just as much as if they had published something. Freedom of speech, yes. Freedom to intrude on someone else's right to privacy, or to slander... no.
Ray illegally shipped a damaged, sick turtle to Kelly. In this case, seller beware - retailers are required to know shipping laws and regulations. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse, and therefore Ray forfeited rights to the turtle. Unless he wants to go pick it up in person... His mistake, he should learn from it, though since Ray is known for this type of shipping, that is unlikely.
As an example - say a reptile retailer sold and shipped an animal to Canada without the appropriate paperwork. The package is stopped at Customs and seized. The retailer doesn't have his animal any longer, and the buyer is absolutely NOT responsible. If I were Kelly, I would also not want to risk an illegal shipment to return an animal, and if the animal was subpar, she had more than one reason to request a refund.
If Ray was any kind of upstanding businessman, he would have offered the refund and an apology upon learning of his mistake and Kelly's disappointment at the quality of the animal, and logically allowed Kelly to keep the turtle since shipping was a big enough issue for PayPal to raise flags for shipping regulations. The fact that the "hall of shame" exists -and for such petty small amounts.... is a great indicator of character (ie Ray seems to value a buck over customer satisfaction). To whine like a child over customers who have had to seek (and received) refunds??? It boggles the mind. Write such transactions off in your business's taxes! Assuming that you are above-the-board for all of those types of things...
Anyway, that was a long ramble. Just because the web seems to be a free-for-all doesn't mean it is. Records are kept and people are liable for those things they post online, just as much as if they had published something. Freedom of speech, yes. Freedom to intrude on someone else's right to privacy, or to slander... no.
kstigile
New member
Still wondering
I wonder how Ray's business is doing with North Point or Snakedepot, or whatever he is calling himself now...
I wonder how Ray's business is doing with North Point or Snakedepot, or whatever he is calling himself now...
hhmoore
tired & cranky shadow
well, Northportreptiles.com is down...I was recently contacted by someone that recognized pictures used by sunshinestatereptiles.com. Alot of similarities, including the "shipped" prices and the "whois" (see below)
I'll let those of you that know all the fancy stuff take it from there
I'll let those of you that know all the fancy stuff take it from there