Recent issues in the Leo Forum brought to the BOI

[Chris@TSE]

Recently there has been alot of discussion in the leo forums that belongs here in the BOI, mainly regarding Dan Poe and his horrid ethics, The mack snow morph and the pricing "politics" that surround it, etc. etc. etc.

Specifically I would like to touch on a topic that has presented itself in regards to this thread: http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68180

Towards the end you'll notice that Rich (Webslave) informs members to stay on topic or fines\suspensions will ensue.

Shortly thereafter a few members were fined in result of ignoring this request.

Completely understandable!

But what about the others? For instance, Steve (E2MACPETS) was fined and suspended for posting one single reply consisting of a sentence or two... Yet a handful of members continued with an offtopic conversation and were NOT fined nor dealt with in any way shape or form.

It's more than obvious that such a rule should apply to EVERYONE and preferential treatment should NOT apply.

Up until this point I have agreed with many if not all of Rich's rules and policies regarding this site. I have also gone out of my way to support fauna aside from simply paying to advertise.....

Unfortunately I have to disagree with the actions taken in this thread I have mentioned. Honestly I believe it should have been closed and a new one should have been created. Something with that much off topic discussion is simply "baiting" individuals to stray off topic. You'll notice until the end I personally stayed out of the discussion even though many of you know that like most who contributed I would have been right in there with the rest of them facing a fine.

Bottom line: I believe that if a handful of offenders are fined and suspended ALL offenders should be fined and suspended. No preferential treatment. Including myself! At the end of that thread I chose to disagree with Rich's actions which was in fact off topic, and if he feels necessary he may fine and suspend me. I deserve it. I also paid to reinstate Steve and Alex and shortly thereafter I was made aware that this practice is no longer allowed, so if he liked he can pay my "fine" if impossed from the fee's I am certain he will be refusing....

As anyone can plainly see the correspondence in that thread speaks for itself. A chosen few were fined for good reason, and others were either overlooked or slid under the rug.

I've done my best to contribute what I could to fauna and seeing something like this really disappoints me....

I believe the others involved should be fined or the fines imposed should be lifted. I really do not think enforcing the rule "halfway" is an option.

 

[KelliH]

Hmm, I just went back and re read the entire thread, and I only saw one other person that MAYBE could have been suspended and fined, only because he mentioned the unmentionable person that's first name starts with the letter D. All the other posts were about possible price fixing, marketing etc. Maybe if you point it out to me, I would see it, at this point I don't. Sorry.

 

[WebSlave]

First off, I will tell you bluntly that I do not intend to explain every little detail of what I do here to enforce the rules. If anyone thinks I am going to fritter away my time doing so to the inevitable crowd that will disagree with EVERYTHING I do, then I suspect you need to re-align your thinking cap.

But in this particular case, let's start with my warning after I had already closed one previous thread about this topic and placed a warning why I closed it within that thread:

Maybe some of you missed my point in that other thread that I had to lock. So I will try to be a bit less subtle with this message.

Anyone trying to turn this leopard gecko forum into a sideline Board of Inquiry will be suspended and fined. Period. No, "I didn't realize you meant ME!" No, "I didn't understand what you meant!" No "But this is IMPORTANT!"

If it is important enough for you to talk ABOUT someone else then it either goes in the BOI, or button your lip.

There, is that to the point enough?

By contextual reference, everyone taking part in that conflict knew what I was referring to. If you want, go read the several threads in the Leopard Gecko Discussion Forum. I am not going to post a synopsis here.

Anyway, does my warning above seem CLEAR enough to a normal reasonable human being?

So I get a report post warning in my mail inbox on the morning of 05/02/05, PLUS a phone call about it. Well, enough is ENOUGH, already! So I start reading that thread.

First up to bat is Bringerofdoom with this quote:

I agree greg, alot of his investors are probably worried about po-boy killing their market value soon. You know he will be the first to bring on lower prices. After wondering why none of the "big guys" are spending their money on his stock, itll happen. His stock in my eyes, will never carry the same value over the rest of everyone stock.

I guess the moral majoritly of people here, feel that once sale is refused to the customer (When we CHOOSE to use that right to sell) That they can get a 3rd party involved and that should make it OK in everyone else's eyes.

Robin (link) Told him no geckos and he complained. Alex told him no and poe basically said a big FU to alex and still got what he wanted. Now is this the actions of a normal adult or that of a grubby "gimme gimme" kid?

Everyone wants to questions alex's ethics, when everyone should be questioning poe's. With the breeding of leo's once the moment they hit the desired weight, when they are technically to young still. To the immediate pairing of a $1000+ gecko, without quaratining at all. I know everyone wanted to get a jump on this season, but i know the rest of you did not do remotely what dan has done though.

Strike three!

Next up to the plate is E2MacPets with this little diddy:

Dan is a bad name to have in the leopard gecko business....

Those were BOTH on merely page one of that thread.

Batter up!

I had to go back through the thread again to catch this one from Alex Hue:

As for reputations and and trying to sink them...here's a doozy...does anyone think I would've sold a Mack snow to lubinsky if I KNEW he had a PRIOR arrangement with poe concerning a breeding loan ??? So the guy had a prior arrangement, didnt tell me about it knowing that a breeding loan would've been out of the question based on where and how I'd like to see this project take shape, bred the Mack male to a few females right after receiving him, turned around and sold it, shipped it within 4 days of receiving...and I'm sinking their reputations? or better yet...my ethics and morals are being questioned?

Was Alex being baited? No, not that I could see, because groovygeckos (Dan Poe) didn't post THIS until AFTER Alex's above post:

OK , i was offered a pair of Snows by you Alex , the only "conversation" w/ me was price and payment option , AFTER you helped me figure out i wanted the pair as opposed to my original inquiry about just a female having taken your own good advice decided against just a female and then asked about ,just a male.
we had come to an agreement upon a pair , a 5-6 mo old male and an "adult" female Snow , after my confusion w/ the different prices for different sizes was out of the way .
i call BS ,and will spare you , posting our e-mail . there was no talk of where you wanted to see this thing go .
i told you very honestly my intentions at the time were to make Giant Snows het Albino and that i was working on a very small scale as more of a hobby than anything until this 'business opportunity' came along and that would make me work on a slightly larger scale ONLY .

So if anyone were being baited, it was Dan Poe, from what I can see.

Were there more people who should have been fined and suspended? Possibly, I was up to page 11 by then and had quite enough of that crap by then.

Were some people fined and suspended unfairly? Also possibly, but you be the judge of that. I had to assume that everyone taking part in this new thread also saw my previous warnings. How could I do it otherwise? Drive to each and everyone's house and give them a lie detector test?

So you all tell me how you want this here. If you want rules and the rules to be enforced, then they HAVE to be no matter who is at fault. Will it be perfect? Meaning will it be as YOU might have done it? Probably not, but that's just the way it is. I really don't CARE about every issue that blows up on this site and am not going to be hanging on everyone's every breath and word about them all. That's just the breaks.

One of the people fined and suspened WAS a long time advertiser and supporter for this site. Should I have turned a blind eye because of this and let him slide? Sure, wouldn't that have been just ducky? Yeah, my slapping his knuckles lost me his advertising revenue here. But either you all want this site where I try to enforce the rules fairly, as much as humanly possible, or you want a good old boy network here where the perks go to the highest bidders. If that is what you want, then just spit it out and be done with it.

 

[KelliH]

One of the people fined and suspened WAS a long time advertiser and supporter for this site. Should I have turned a blind eye because of this and let him slide? Sure, wouldn't that have been just ducky? Yeah, my slapping his knuckles lost me his advertising revenue here. But either you all want this site where I try to enforce the rules fairly, as much as humanly possible, or you want a good old boy network here where the perks go to the highest bidders. If that is what you want, then just spit it out and be done with it.

Rich, had you turned a blind eye because of advertising money, it would have been wrong. It would have smelled a little too familar. You did the right thing.

To Alex: If you are reading this, please come back. I know if I got suspended for something I would probably be pissed off for a day or two, then pay my fine, come back and enjoy the site again. We need you here ALex, you have a lot to offer our foru. I really hope you change your mind.

 

[Wilomn]

Alex you are a valued member here. NOW you can join MY club. Of course before you can be an officer of my elite membership you need to be suspended a time or three more, but I have high hopes for you. LOL

Really, come on back. Sh$t happens just don't let it get to you. The same goes for the rest of you too.

 

[shrap]

Hmm, I just went back and re read the entire thread, and I only saw one other person that MAYBE could have been suspended and fined, only because he mentioned the unmentionable person that's first name starts with the letter D. All the other posts were about possible price fixing, marketing etc. Maybe if you point it out to me, I would see it, at this point I don't. Sorry.

I just went back and read the thread as well and agree completely. I just don't see it.

 

[Mickey_TLK]

Chris

Take it from a guy who has gone down this road, quit while your ahead.

Alex

As stated before, why not return and join the club of the banned. (figured I would have to chime in there also).

 

[Chris@TSE]

It's okay, I vented and those who should of received fines in addition to those already fined know who they are. I simply agree to disagree and move on, everyone can't agree at all times...... It wuold be no fun! Besdies, im happy knowing I said my peace.

Hopefully Rich uses the $ I sent to lift Alex's fine as requested, I'd like to see Alex still appear in this evenings chat. Many are looking forward to it...

If not he can feel free to refund it as he sees fit.

 

[Lucille]

I had thought there was a specific rule here on Fauna against paying the fines of others.

 

[WebSlave]

Your money was refunded, Chris. Thanks for the thought, but it has to be this way. One thought behind my coming up with the suspension and fine was that the fine is minimal enough that it is not that much of a burden, at least at first, and secondly, any one who just wants a reason to leave has a ready one available at any time.

I really don't like to have to out and out ban people. But anyone is welcome to ban themselves if they decide they really want to. I just made it a self service option.

 

[dragonflyreptiles]

Ive thought alot about this since it started and lost sleep over it last night so Im tried cranky and decided to post my 02 cents on the whole thing.

Rich made it clear a few weeks back to keep it on the BOI, not hard to do, it could have been discussed about, bickered over and talked about all day and night here on the BOI (or HELL for that matter) but it kept jumping back up in the leo forum. Things happen. So Rich again had to intervene and lock one thread make it known again to drop it on the leo forum, then on the 2nd thread he had to put up a warning and then on the 3rd he took action, what was he supposed to do, let people walk all over him and do whatever they please?

Rich fined a few people after the really 3rd warning. Oh well its Rich's site and Rich has things to do that do not involve baby sitting a bunch of grown adults. If you had to tell your children 3 and 4 times not do to something they would be punished in some way, grounded, time out, whatever and thats all Rich did, gave a few warnings then had to a time out with a little fine.

I feel bad for Alex, Ive known him a long time and never know him to get upset over anything and I think this was a situation that took a toll on him and others involved with the new Snows and he appeared to be upset, hurt, angry and had a right to be all of those things, but on the correct forum. I hope Alex comes back and I still have and always will have the upmost respect for him and his reptiles.

I really cannot understand why it could not have been discussed in the proper area? Do you drive on the wrong side of the road? No, you drive on the right side so you don't get a ticket or into an accident with a head on collision and thats what happened, the discussion was on the road side of the road and had a collision.

Don't think I didn't want to add and add to the topic but I didn't, it was hard to keep my mouth shut but sometimes things are hard and thats just a fact of life and now that 2 of the primary people involved are suspened and may not pay fines to come back it cannot be discussed and bickered about on the BOI and that sucks!

I feel it is a priviledge to be here not that it is owed to me in anyway and when I screw up I get points and if I were fined Id pay it and get over it.

sorry I rambled and for any typos, Im really tired and really torn about this hole issue and feel really bad for a lot of the people involved! Take is as what you will, jsut my opinion.

 

[Lucille]

Wendy, I liked your road example; and I too see the value of keeping certain conversations in certain arenas.

I think Fauna is a terrific place and I think as members of this community we owe it to ourselves and to Rich to try to do what we can not to cause inordinate headaches for him by following his guidelines which are actually pretty reasonable and clear.

Yes, I know I should not talk since I have a warning point and do in fact get involved in controversy every once in a while; but each day starts anew and I think each day we can all try to affirm that this is THE BEST REPTILE SITE IN THE WORLD.

My two cents.

 

[Chris@TSE]

Lucille, You forgot to shamelessly plug the auctions.......

 

[Lucille]

A public service message: visit the Fauna Fund, the Lonely Hearts Forum, and the Welcome Club; remember, THINK PINK !!!

 

[Chris@TSE]

There we go.......

 

[The BoidSmith]

I really cannot understand why it could not have been discussed in the proper area? Do you drive on the wrong side of the road? No, you drive on the right side so you don't get a ticket or into an accident with a head on collision and thats what happened, the discussion was on the road side of the road and had a collision.

Yes, I like that analogy too. The only problem is that some think they are constantly driving in the UK. "Lovelly" as the Brits use to say.

 

[Chris@TSE]

Nice analogy, but unfortunately it is not that "cut and dry". The topic of discussion started on Mack Snows and led to discussion involving a horrid pathetic individual and his previous antics, etc. etc. etc.... all of which still somewhat involved the mack snows. If you REALLY want to be anal about it, it was still on topic, but moving away fast........ It went from the morph to dealings that occured involving the morph, pricing, etc.

Either way it was better suited for the BOI.

 

[raiquee]

I actually have been avoiding the leo forum because of this. I am in no hot seat to give my opinion on the matter. I haven't even had a single egg hatch! Whos to care what i have to say.

But it is troubling to want to read about hatchlings and eggs and new morphs and see a thread with 385238535 pages on it about Dan Poe. He is getting more fame than he deserves people.

 

[dragonflyreptiles]

Nice analogy, but unfortunately it is not that "cut and dry". The topic of discussion started on Mack Snows and led to discussion involving a horrid pathetic individual and his previous antics, etc. etc. etc.... all of which still somewhat involved the mack snows. If you REALLY want to be anal about it, it was still on topic, but moving away fast........ It went from the morph to dealings that occured involving the morph, pricing, etc.

Either way it was better suited for the BOI.

Sorry but I do think it was that "cut and dry" because it was not just that 1 thread that Rich had to make it "plain and clear" of where to discuss the matter and as soon as it went off track on the 1st thread "we" were told very clearly where to hash it out then the 2nd time (& 3rd etc), when someone tells you where to discuss the situation its pretty simple.

I think the problem is that Dan Poe would not post on the BOI becaue he knew that there was little chance of someone doing a search on the leo forum and finding it so he avoided the BOI (he is not a paid member but he could have asked for the 30 day dispute time) and it should have been discussed here and there is alot of information that will now not come out because it was not discussed in the proper area.

 

[Chris@TSE]

That went straight over your head.........

I really cannot understand why it could not have been discussed in the proper area? Do you drive on the wrong side of the road? No, you drive on the right side so you don't get a ticket or into an accident with a head on collision and thats what happened, the discussion was on the road side of the road and had a collision.

THIS is what I was replying too. The situation was not as cut and dry as this analogy, nice attempt though.

The discussion itself was on topic technically, it had everything to do with the mack snows. It slowly turned into discussion involving individuals involved in certain dealings with the mack line as well as the "economics" of the trade. Perhaps not as "on topic" as Rich would have liked but alas, still on topic. But he was right, the way the discussion was going it certainly belonged in the BOI, the discussion regarding pricing however did not. Only the discussions "naming names" and the issues regarding those individuals.

Perhaps that may clarify things for you.......