Recent issues in the Leo Forum brought to the BOI

[Jim O]

What about the second fine? Does that stand too?

 

[nicolai]

oh ok...

, and regardless of whether Steven ignored, forgot, didn't notice, or thought that his joke was not a violation, it WAS a violation after all. .

Sorta like when lucille posted a off topic thread on the BOI and knew it was a violation yet she received nothing.And she even admitted to it and asked for the point. Come on Rich, you have gotta see the way this looks from other peoples perspective.
A person posts a harmless joke that may or may not be a violation depending on how you read it and gets points, a fine and a suspension and another person knowingly breaks the rules and gets nothing.

, My reasons for this are that I did draw the line in the sand.

You drew a line in the sand but you are going to let some people jump over it and stay in your oasis??

Rich, you know from our many converstions that I love what you have done here with this site and the reptile community and I hope you keep it going for years to come, and maybe even make a little money from it down the road. But i think your setting a terrible precedence here. What are all the people new to fauna going to think??
Even the laws that we live by are subject to the judges discretion when we go to court. Just because you drew the line in the sand doesn't mean that you have to make an example out of him for the others to see.

I know that people are going to jump on here and tell me to "stop complaining" and its "Rich's site and He can do whatever he wants", and " if you don't like it you can leave" and numerous other things. But I would like to think that I am part of the family you created here and we are sitting at the dinner table trying to decide whats best for the familys future. ( you can be Grandpa Rich the patriarch of the family) and the only way for you to understand how other family members feel is for them to let you know, which is what i am doing here.
Heres an Idea, Put StevesReinstatement up on fauna Fund Auction. You will see just how people feel about this. I bet he not only gets reinstated but enough is raised to move him toa higher level, maybe even endowment level. But instead of people bidding against each other let it be a fauna fund raiser where everyone can put in what they want for Steves reinstatement. This would be a fair resilution to this problem and you would get your money from the fine, Steve would get re-instated, you get extra money to help the site,and nobody loses anything, how can you go wrong?

 

[MGReptiles]

Now that is a good idea, just put it on the fauna fund and see what happens.. I have went over the posts and see what this is in refrence to.. I am a voyure(sp) on most threads but this is crazy.. It is your site but we all pay to post here and should have a say in the matter.. Its a membership and memberships come with "perks" one of them is posting on the BOI and the classified section, but we also should have a voice in what happens here.. Just my thoughts..
-Matt Graybeal

 

[shrap]

( you can be Grandpa Rich the patriarch of the family)

Can I be the barefoot, 6 toothed, overalls wearing cousin that lives in a one room shack on the back 40?

 

[nicolai]

huh??

I thought you already are!!!!! except you only have 5 teeth.

 

[shrap]

I thought you already are!!!!! except you only have 5 teeth.

Yeah but I had a false ONE put in.....

 

[Lucille]

Heres an Idea, Put StevesReinstatement up on fauna Fund Auction. You will see just how people feel about this. I bet he not only gets reinstated but enough is raised to move him toa higher level, maybe even endowment level. But instead of people bidding against each other let it be a fauna fund raiser where everyone can put in what they want for Steves reinstatement. This would be a fair resilution to this problem and you would get your money from the fine, Steve would get re-instated, you get extra money to help the site,and nobody loses anything, how can you go wrong?

My two cents: It has sort of a surface appeal to it; but think: the next time someone gets a fine it will be on the Fund, and I will be overwhelmed with coping with Fauna politics from everyone who wants to buy off his sentence.

By the way, it has been tried already, someone tried to auction off their warning point and made some nice money for Fauna, too; but kept the point (and was happy to do so, lol).

I think this smacks of the early days of some religions when dispensations were sold. People who have poor friends will have to suffer, those who have wealthy buddies will go free.

Just my two cents.

 

[Rebel Dragons]

My two cents: It has sort of a surface appeal to it; but think: the next time someone gets a fine it will be on the Fund, and I will be overwhelmed with coping with Fauna politics from everyone who wants to buy off his sentence.

Do you really think the politics would be that bad, Lucille? His idea does have appeal. My only fear would be, everytime someone got fined someone else would start an auction for them. That could lead to some confusion.

 

[nicolai]

Lucille..

To the best of my knowledge this is the first tme that someone getting suspended has been so contraversial . Ususally when someone gets fined and suspended they knew they had it coming because they knowingly broke one or more of the rules. This is not the case here. The was no harm intended or malice on anyones part. This is like saying a person that gets a parking ticket gets the same punishment as the guy that committed vehicular homicide.
Even Rich wasnt sure about his decision to suspend Steve and is why he asked for everyones opinion on the subject, So we wont have to worry about this sort of thing in the future unless he intends to ask everyones opinion on each suspension he doles out.
There is always that case that comes up that is the exception to the rule and this is one of those cases. You dont think there re any people in prison that actually are innocent?? I do !! IAnd in this case I would like to help post the bail of a innocent man so that he doesnt waste away in the prison outside of fauna!!!

 

[Jim O]

While the idea of having auctions might be appealing I believe that the reason for the fine and for insisting that a person pay their own is that Fauna should be for people who see value in it. If everytime someone runs their mouth they get a free pass because their so called friends want them back then what has been accomplished?

 

[nicolai]

well...

While the idea of having auctions might be appealing I believe that the reason for the fine and for insisting that a person pay their own is that Fauna should be for people who see value in it. If everytime someone runs their mouth they get a free pass because their so called friends want them back then what has been accomplished?

Whats to stop thier friends from paypaling them the money to get reinstated, or paying rich in thier name without his knowledge. There are many ways around the fines, this is an open way to resolve an issue. I dont like to think that we may loose a valued member of fauna over stubberness and the inability to be flexable when it is justified.
The whole issue here is the "no Name Calling" rule that he supposedly broke. Does anybody that read the entire thread actually think that he broke that rule rather then just making a joke on a dicussion forum to lighten things up???

 

[shrap]

The whole issue here is the "no Name Calling" rule that he supposedly broke. Does anybody that read the entire thread actually think that he broke that rule rather then just making a joke on a dicussion forum to lighten things up???

Actually what triggered the fines and suspensions had nothing to do with name calling. It was the fact that people could not keep the whole Poe/Lubinsky/Johnson/Hues/Mack Snow controversey out of the Leo discussion forums.

Rich gave a warning long ago about it, then in the couple of days leading up to the suspensions he had to close a thread because of it along with a warning. Then in another thread he another warning that anymore AT ALL about that incident inside the discussion forums was going to lead to suspensions. We have forums for that stuff, we did not need to turn the Leo discussion area into a battle zone. There were lots of warnings given.

Now with that being said, I understand that Steve was joking. It is a tough call considering the circumstances. Really it was just bad timing on Steves part.

 

[nicolai]

I have to disagree

Actually what triggered the fines and suspensions had nothing to do with name calling.
.

WebSlave 05-02-2005
$10 fine suspension (first offense)
[ View Post] "You too Alex. That quip about Lubinsky and Poe tripped the wire."


As you see Alex was suspended for name calling. and it was the statement where he uses the name DAN in general, he did not use any last names.Please read the thread again .

 

[nicolai]

sorry about that..

I grabbed the wrong user/suspension log lets try this again.

E2MacPets
Suspended - fine due
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: LI, NY
Posts: 1,328
Name : Steven Beckerman
WebSlave 05-02-2005
$10 fine suspension (first offense)
[ View Post] I was NOT joking! http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?p=261744#post261744

Dan is a bad name to have in the leopard gecko business....

Is that worth having to get suspended and fined???

 

[shrap]

Like I said, I felt it was just bad timing considering the events leading up to that point. I felt it was a joke from the first time I seen it, not an attempt to instigate the situation. So no I do not feel Steve warranted a suspension, but I can see the argument for it considering the events leading up to it.

And like I said, none of the suspensions had anything to do with name calling. It was exactly to do with what I posted above. If you choose to believe otherwise that is your choice. I have no desire to debate that.

 

[Jim O]

Whats to stop thier friends from paypaling them the money to get reinstated, or paying rich in thier name without his knowledge

Nothing at all could stop anyone from sending anyone money. But Rich can insist that monies sent via PayPal come from the e-mail address of record for a particular User ID. This would at least force the suspended individual to go through the process of sending the money. Again, I don't think the amount is a deterrent. The person has to want to come back.

There are many ways around the fines

Yes there are indeed. Let's not make it easier. *Most* of the time we can all agree that fines and suspensions are well deserved. Let the person involved pay it from their account, whether it is financed by someone else or not. If Rich makes an exception for Steve, then that opens the door for everyone else.

JMHO of course.

 

[Monte]

My heaven's - it's a whole $10.00.

If somebody doesn't want to pay a $10.00 fine - then it smells like it's more of a case of pride, than anything else.

IF you want to sand on principle - or hurt feelings - or whatever - for 10 bucks - more power to ya.

It's 10 bucks, people.

 

[Rebel Dragons]

My heaven's - it's a whole $10.00.

If somebody doesn't want to pay a $10.00 fine - then it smells like it's more of a case of pride, than anything else.

IF you want to sand on principle - or hurt feelings - or whatever - for 10 bucks - more power to ya.

It's 10 bucks, people.

I think pride may be the biggest issue surrounding this thread. JMHO

 

[nicolai]

Its actually 30.00

My heaven's - it's a whole $10.00.

If somebody doesn't want to pay a $10.00 fine - then it smells like it's more of a case of pride, than anything else.

IF you want to sand on principle - or hurt feelings - or whatever - for 10 bucks - more power to ya.

It's 10 bucks, people.

He got fined 10.00 for the joke about "DANS" in the leopard gecko business, then he got fined 20.00 for posting a reply about without realizing he couldnt do it before he paid the first fine. When he logged on to fauna hit avatar didnt say "suspended fine owed" anymore and he thought rich had waived his fine so he posted on the BOI and got fined again.
so 10.00 + 20.00 = 30.00.
So in my opinion he got fined twice for nothing. once for a joke he made and once for posting when he thought his suspension had been lifted, wouldnt you think yours had been lifted as well if it didnt say "suspended fine owed" anymore. Why would he think otherwise. Can you see the logic in all this.
How is this whole episode going to do fauna any good in the long run, it has left a bitter taste in the mouths of a lot of people already.
People are going to be afraid to joke about anything in the forums, a place that is supposed to be lighthearted and amusing where people can go to talk about reptiles and enjoy themselves.

OK, an honest mistake on your part, but no the suspension has NOT been lifted at all. It is not lifted until you pay your fine.

Or does anyone else feel my suspension in this particular case was out of line, under the circumstances?

Webslave even said it was an honest mistake he made by poting on the BOI., but the 20.00 second fine is still there??And if he was so sure that it wasnt a joke why would he ask for opinions. This whole thing is in the "grey" zone. I am begining to think that someone wants to prove that people will pay the fine to come back no matter what the reasoning for it was. I know i probably would because i like the site and spend a lot of time here.

 

[WebSlave]

He got fined 10.00 for the joke about "DANS" in the leopard gecko business, then he got fined 20.00 for posting a reply about without realizing he couldnt do it before he paid the first fine. When he logged on to fauna hit avatar didnt say "suspended fine owed" anymore and he thought rich had waived his fine so he posted on the BOI and got fined again.
so 10.00 + 20.00 = 30.00.
So in my opinion he got fined twice for nothing. once for a joke he made and once for posting when he thought his suspension had been lifted, wouldnt you think yours had been lifted as well if it didnt say "suspended fine owed" anymore. Why would he think otherwise. Can you see the logic in all this.
How is this whole episode going to do fauna any good in the long run, it has left a bitter taste in the mouths of a lot of people already.
People are going to be afraid to joke about anything in the forums, a place that is supposed to be lighthearted and amusing where people can go to talk about reptiles and enjoy themselves.



Webslave even said it was an honest mistake he made by poting on the BOI., but the 20.00 second fine is still there??And if he was so sure that it wasnt a joke why would he ask for opinions. This whole thing is in the "grey" zone. I am begining to think that someone wants to prove that people will pay the fine to come back no matter what the reasoning for it was. I know i probably would because i like the site and spend a lot of time here.

Why don't you just LOOK in the suspended members log file before you post? That second fine was removed as soon as I realized that Steven had made a mistake based on how I set up the "soft" suspension, allowing him to be able to post.

As for the rest of the flak, I asked people's opinion and took what was given under consideration. If MOST or ALL of the people bothering to respond had stated that they felt I had made a mistake in judgement, then I would have gone along with that assessment. THAT did not happen. Fifty percent, or thereabouts, of opinions going one way or the other is NOT a mandate.

Quite simply, I placed a warning that included a penalty of a fine and suspension. This was in black and white and not subject to any misinterpretation. Does THIS appear to indicate I was joking about it:

Anyone trying to turn this leopard gecko forum into a sideline Board of Inquiry will be suspended and fined. Period. No, "I didn't realize you meant ME!" No, "I didn't understand what you meant!" No "But this is IMPORTANT!"

If it is important enough for you to talk ABOUT someone else then it either goes in the BOI, or button your lip.

There, is that to the point enough?