Bad Guy Reptidoc Dr. Darryl G. Walker

[crotalis40741]

Yeah i know.

 

[crotalis40741]

I'm not trying to make light of this situation, but something else that seems to be forgotten is that there were hundreds of 2010 babies sold by Doc that have not gotten sick or died. 13 of those are in my possession and are doing very well. I don't know what the answer is, but hopefully when the results come back from the test on the sick snake, they'll be more conclusive. One thing that these first test results seem to prove is that Doc did not intentionally sell sick animals as he was accused of earlier in this thread. I'm sure he wants to get to the bottom of this too.

I have not said he did anything with intention.

 

[Vinman]

You got to go by the level of pathogen in the animal to tell whether it was the culprit. It would be nice to see that other animal that is still alive get tested too

 

[melrad_61000]

Sorry Bob, I submitted my post before seeing your last post. I think you've handled this whole matter very responsibly (which is more than I can say for others) and I never got the impression that you were bashing anyone. I hope my post didn't give you the impression that I did.

 

[crotalis40741]

You got to go by the level of pathogen in the animal to tell whether it was the culprit. It would be nice to see that other animal that is still alive get tested too

Yes he will be getting tested next week at the University of Ky Animal disease lab. I will post the results here. I just want to know what is going on and if my collection is safe is all I have wanted during this.

 

[Vinman]

you need to get a acid wash test for crypto

 

[vetusvates]

The test results don't tell us too much. Just that there is some sort of infection, and that salmonella is potentially one of the culprits.


Is there any chance all you folks with issues get your snake's food from the same source?

No I breed my own feeders and every snake here is fed out of the colony of rodents I have.
I have had the rodents since I got the first snakes last year. No it is not the same original ones for they have been replaced by offspring as they got older.

my feeder got from Rodent Pro so far I didn't hear any complaint about there feeder.

All of my feeders come from Big Cheese Rodent Factory in Fort Worth Texas. I pick them up to save on the shipping and possible problems that could occur during shipping. All my snakes eat them and I have had no other problems.

Todd

Mine come from Ms. Edna at The Mouse Factory in Alpine, Texas.

And.....I don't have 100% death rate from any other source of origin of my snakes.

 

[vetusvates]

I received the final results of the necropsies. The "light red" specimen was the amel (second of Bob's snakes to die) and the "dark red" specimen was the Sunkissed (3rd to die) (I figured it would be easier for the pathologist to identify each one easier that way). As I figured, the freezing caused a great deal of damage. I can't stress enough the importance of getting bodies necropsied, or at least properly preserved, ASAP. Due to these results, I would recommend a culture and sensitivity (esophageal/stomach wash) on any live, but sick snakes, to properly identify the bacterial infection and come up with a proper treatment.

Ditto on what Susan says here (in blue). Gastric lavage with culture and sensitivities on a live, but ailing snake, would be paramount and ideal. To rule out, or not rule out, a number of things. Cryptosporidium species are protozoan intracellular parasites. I would think freezing may or may not leave any traceable evidence to rule it out, or not rule it out.
And....some microorganisms may not have cell walls of substantial enough integrity to remain perfectly intact in the presence of formalin, usually used in the fixation and examination of 'native' pathological tissues. At a glance, in this link, I cannot see formalin used in what have come to be modern techniques for diagnosing cryptosporidium.

Before I leave the subject of cryptosporidium, here is a far more erudite account than my generalities. There are some very very interesting studies here regarding species and strains of crypto. For example a protracted study in the St. Louis Zoo.

As for salmonella, there are legion subspecies, and serotypes. And like Cryptosporidium species, they are more or less species-specific.
Some are normal flora.
Some are harbingers of sure death.

See : Kauffman-White classification.
This would certainly be a healthy starting point for a dilettante microbiologist to read up on the intricacies of the genus Salmonella.

As is, IMHO, we are off to an excellent start in solving this mystery of many dead snakes, one common denominator.
However, the first step is often only slightly less difficult than the remaining steps to meticulously pursue a problem to a sound, satisfactory resolution.

 

[vetusvates]

(Can't edit.)
Note, Salmonella species, like many other bacteria, can and do cause a disease state by toxins. Exotoxins and endotoxins. So 'number of pathogens' present does not always have a direct relationship to degree of resulting disease state or outcome (death).

 

[Vinman]

Hello everyone But there was no acid wash test. It could be Crypto. If you did not test for it how do you know that they did not die of Crypto.

If it was the other 2 pathogens was the culprit there would have been high number count of those 2 pathogens. I highly doubt that the 2 pathogens found killed the snakes the test results would have said that they were in high number count.

Being no Crypto tests were done you still have no answer. They still might have a tissue samples at the lab to do a acid wash test for Crypto.

Everything you people have been saying sounds like the sines of crypto. it could not be affecting the snakes till after the stress of shipping and a new home. crypto can lie dormant for years before their are any sines of the infestation.

Snakes have a high resistance to Salmonella and Ecoli. Remember people they eat live animals in nature and both of these are common in the prey items. The rectum and the intestines carry Ecoli as a natural fauna. . Both of these pathogens in normal levels will not harm the snakes. I know I have kept many wild caught corns and in captivity. They pass most pathogens out of the system or keep them at low levels. At the low levels both of these pathogens were found with good husbandry would have not affected the young corns. So they are not your culprit.

 

[crotalis40741]

I will have the remaining sick hatchling checked for crypto, the others did not show the normal signs of crypto that are described in the articles I have read. No swelling of the abdomen no mucoid diarreah the fecal matter was not foul smelling. It could have been that I don't know for sure but with being tested the sick male should prove it or rule it out.
But like you said it can lie dormant and the stress of shipping especially in say non insulated or heated boxes could bring on the stress enough to bring it out of dormancy. If that is the case they would have had to come here with it. Especially seeing as how most of my snakes have been here a while and I have not lost any of them in this fashion. I am not a microbiologist so is just speculation as would be any diagnosis made by a layperson as to cause of death of the hatchlings without clinical testing and diagnosis made in either direction of the hatchlings be it crypto or salmonella or ecoli. I am not laying blame on anyone in this I will say I have other 2010s from other sources that are doing great and are probably more than double the size of these hatchlings. I can take comparison pics as to prove this. I also have the original emails to prove when these said hatchlings were purchased. So until I have the sick male tested next week all we can do is speculate about what was the cause of death in the other hatchlings.

 

[Nanci]

Bob, here is some information on what procedure to follow before doing a gastric lavage for crypto:

Diagnosis of subclinical cryptosporidiosis in captive snakes based on stomach lavage and cloacal sampling
T. K. Graczyka, b, , , R. Owensc, b and M. R. Cranfieldd, b

a Department of Molecular Microbiology and Immunology, School of Hygiene and Public Health, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD 21205, USA

b Medical Department, The Baltimore Zoo, Druid Hill Park, Baltimore, Maryland, 21217, USA

c Glymont Veterinary Clinic, Indian Head, MD 20640, USA

d Division of Comparative Medicine, Department of Pathology, School of Medicine, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD 21205, USA

Received 6 February 1996; accepted 18 April 1996. ; Available online 5 December 1997.

Abstract
The applicability of stomach lavage and cloacal swab techniques for diagnosis of subclinical cryptosporidiosis were tested in eight captive snakes subclinically infected with Cryptosporidium serpentis. Two feeding regimes were employed. The snakes were first fed 7 days prior to stomach and cloaca sampling, and then 3 days prior to sampling, and the oocysts were detected by fluorescein labeled monoclonal antibody (mAb) and by acid-fast stained (AFS) direct wet smear (DWS). The overall sensitivity of AFS DWS was 95% for stomach samples and 57% for cloacal samples, with false-negativity of 5% and 43%, respectively. A significant relationship (P<0.01) was found between stomach and cloacal samples when mAb were used for oocyst detection. Stomach sampling was diagnostically superior to cloacal sampling for identifying snake subclinical cryptosporidiosis. Based on gastric aspirates, cryptosporidial infection was diagnosed in all eight animals, and only in two or four snakes when cloacal swab material was processed by AFS or by mAb, respectively. Feeding snakes 3 days prior to sampling facilitated diagnosis based on stomach samples; however, it did not improve diagnosis when cloacal samples were used. The fraction of oocyst-positive stomach samples was significantly higher (P<0.05) for snakes fed 3 days prior to gastric lavage when compared with the fraction of positive samples of snakes fed 7 days prior to lavage. If subclinical cryptosporidiosis is suspected in a non-eating snake patient, force-feeding and stomach lavage, 3 days after the meal, is recommended.

I can get the entire article for you if you need it, but if that is the test the vet is going to do, it is important to cause the crypto to "shed" prior to looking for it, and that is done by feeding the animal three days prior.

 

[crotalis40741]

Thank you Nanci, I will follow what it says there and feed him 3 days before testing. He will eat so that shouldn't be a problem. Unless he quits eating or passes away before then. I have been on the phone with the lab to arrange to take him in next week. He will probably go in on the 3rd or 4th.

 

[Vinman]

You can't rule it out unless it is tested for crypto

 

[crotalis40741]

No one is ruling it out. The tests will rule it out or prove it either way.

 

[Paige n' James]

Crotalis40741,
How long will it take to get the results? V/R Paige

 

[crotalis40741]

The last sick snake has a vet appointment Friday the 6th, I am hoping less than a week to get the results back. If he makes it till then, if he passes before then I will be taking him to the UK Lab for complete necropsie and testing. All results either good or bad will be posted on here.
bob brown

 

[crotalis40741]

Just a quick update, I took the male hatchling to the vet yesterday. The samples couldn't go out for testing yesterday so I have to take him back Monday morning to get the samples taken. The vet doesn't know if she can do a gastric lavage on the snake because he is so tiny. But we are going to try. As far as his shape and condition she noted he is very small and somewhat skinny (a month of regurges) but not emaciated and is not dehydrated. At 8 months old he weighed 11 grams with a split pinkie in him. At home he weighed 10 grams empty and 12 after the pinkie. As soon as the results for the crypto and cutlures come back I will post them here.
thank you
Bob Brown

 

[crotalis40741]

The last tests came back and as soon as I get hard copies I will post them here, the snake hatchling I had tested last is negative for crypto, they did a Polymerase Chain Reaction test on the samples sent to the lab. It is the last I can do, I was hoping for answers and some closure on this. Now that I know they are clear of crypto I am going to place the remaining hatchlings and one adult from the breeder into pet homes locally. There is nothing I can do now but take the losses on them and move on. At last weigh on the hatchlings they weighed 10,10,11,12 grams respectively at 8 months old and all are on a five day feeding schedule. The remaining ones are eating and three of them are not showing the same signs as the male hatchling that has been tested last. Doc did pay for the testing on the last hatchling and for the necropsies on the two that died last. I am not bashing him or anyone on this just wanted answers.

 

[Paige n' James]

Bob,
Thank you so much for sharing your information. I am still baffled as to what really happened and what kind of illness would cause such tragic losses.

Kudos to Doc for stepping up to pay for the testing. I would think he is as baffled as the rest of us are regarding this issue.

V/R Paige (fairly new to snakes and still learning every day)