• Responding to email notices you receive.
    **************************************************
    In short, DON'T! Email notices are to ONLY alert you of a reply to your private message or your ad on this site. Replying to the email just wastes your time as it goes NOWHERE, and probably pisses off the person you thought you replied to when they think you just ignored them. So instead of complaining to me about your messages not being replied to from this site via email, please READ that email notice that plainly states what you need to do in order to reply to who you are trying to converse with.

  • IMPORTANT! PLEASE READ!! About the Google Adsense ads being displayed

    =====================
    Posted 08/15/2025
    =====================


    Yeah, I know. They are a pain in the butt. But they pay the bills to keep my server running. Just a fact of life, I am afraid.

    Want to get rid of them? Simple. Just become a Contributor level member or above and they will be gone. -> Please click HERE."

    Is that too much for me to ask of you to keep this site running? Well, sorry about that. I too wish I could get everything for free. But alas.....

    =====================
    Addendum: 01/10/2026
    =====================


    Google Adsense ad revenue for December, 2025 was just $30 over the cost of the lease for the server running this site. So, in effect, the money providing the incentive for me to continue running this site is coming SOLELY from the paid memberships and sponsorships here. Which honestly ain't much....

Info Reptiles By Mack (HORROR VIDEO!!)

Well, since it has been established that it was PETA taking the video at RBM, (certainly without permission and under circumstances of THEIR choosing) and most certainly doing it under the pretext of being hired there to do a job, what job do you think it was that put them in the position to get that video footage? Cleaning animal cages perhaps? Caring for the animals, perhaps? Which do you think had the highest priority on their list of things to do every day? Take care of the animals they were tasked with, or getting the juiciest video they could to further the agenda they were tasked with by PETA?

Quite honestly, I am not convinced that this is any sort of unbiased view at all. I've been to some wholesalers myself, and some were extraordinarily well maintained, and others I wanted to take a half dozen showers after leaving there and burn the clothes I had been wearing. The worst seemed to be importers, in my opinion. The best were ones that bred their own animals for the majority of the stock they offered for sale. But none were, nor ever could be, pristine and spotless by any stretch of the imagination. Animals just do not give you that sort of luxury.

I am sorry, but I am just not buying into anything that PETA tries to convince me of. Not when their obvious agenda means the complete destruction of the entire animal industry. If anyone else wants to buy into that agenda, then have at it. Watch that video and pay attention to the end of it concerning what PETA is promoting. When they get your support to divide and conquer the wholesale aspect of the pet trade do you seriously think that will be the end of their focus? YOU, even with your handful of animals, will be next.



As indicated above, this is nothing new as a tactical maneuver.... So go ahead, condemn someone else because their standards are not exactly the same as yours with the handful of animals you take care of. Nor can they be.





I couldn't agree more. I get so tired of hearing small-time hobby keepers/breeders making comments slamming wholesalers. Every. Stinking. Species. in this hobby that is captive-bred ORIGINALLY came from animals collected from the wild. It took MILLIONS of imported Ball Pythons to get us to the point where we don't "need" to import them any longer, and yet, we still do. EVERYONE who keeps animals -even 20th generation captive-bred animals- is guilty of benefiting from the wholesale industry.

OF COURSE it is better to buy captive-bred when possible- absolutely!- but with what seems like 90% of the breeders focusing on the same dozen or so species, it is going to be a long time before this hobby is free from a need for wholesalers and/or importers, and you are 110% correct that our collective frogs are being slowly boiled- thinking it "okay" to "ban" a species because YOU don't keep it or outlaw a certain segment of the industry because YOU don't work in that segment will eventually be then end of this hobby for us all.
 
I couldn't agree more. I get so tired of hearing small-time hobby keepers/breeders making comments slamming wholesalers. Every. Stinking. Species. in this hobby that is captive-bred ORIGINALLY came from animals collected from the wild. It took MILLIONS of imported Ball Pythons to get us to the point where we don't "need" to import them any longer, and yet, we still do. EVERYONE who keeps animals -even 20th generation captive-bred animals- is guilty of benefiting from the wholesale industry.

So that justifies mistreating animals? Not housing or feeding them properly because it would lower profit margins?

You don't think that someone who is extremely mindful about only buying captive bred animals makes a difference? So because 20 generations ago these animals were imported, I should continue to buy imported animals? That logic doesn't even make sense.

Also, I'm personally saying not to buy from wholesalers. At what point does someone stop being a hobby breeder and their opinion is of value to you? When they have 50 snakes? 100 snakes? What if I have 300? What if breeding snakes is my entire business, but I still say not to buy from wholesalers? Does my opinion suddenly hold more merit?

You're right, we don't need to import anymore. There are enough ball pythons out there to fill every single pet store 100 times over. Yet they're still imported because of people like you who think that if they buy a wild caught gravid female that they'll get to discover a new morph and make a name for themselves. As soon as people stop having the nonsensical opinion you just posted maybe things will start to change for the better.
 
Well, you can buy from wholesalers if you want, but this is the sort of thing it promotes. This is the reason I stick to private breeders.
 
So that justifies mistreating animals? Not housing or feeding them properly because it would lower profit margins?

You don't think that someone who is extremely mindful about only buying captive bred animals makes a difference? So because 20 generations ago these animals were imported, I should continue to buy imported animals? That logic doesn't even make sense.

Also, I'm personally saying not to buy from wholesalers. At what point does someone stop being a hobby breeder and their opinion is of value to you? When they have 50 snakes? 100 snakes? What if I have 300? What if breeding snakes is my entire business, but I still say not to buy from wholesalers? Does my opinion suddenly hold more merit?

You're right, we don't need to import anymore. There are enough ball pythons out there to fill every single pet store 100 times over. Yet they're still imported because of people like you who think that if they buy a wild caught gravid female that they'll get to discover a new morph and make a name for themselves. As soon as people stop having the nonsensical opinion you just posted maybe things will start to change for the better.


You are extrapolating incorrectly, and putting words in my mouth that I didn't say. Perhaps your defensiveness arises from your realization that yes, you have in fact benefited from cheap imports in the past-? At any rate, your logical fallacies are your own- not mine.

To begin with, as many others have pointed out, we can't even know if this "mistreatment" is legitimately recorded or not. Video "evidence" is not "evidence" if it was edited/produced in such a way as to give an impression of something that isn't accurate. Anyone can find a freshly-injured animal and photograph/film it as if it had been that way for a long time. Also, recording someone saying something isn't necessarily "proof", either- both the person quoted and the person filming could have it out for the wholesaler. We just don't know.

What we DO know is, every single captive-bred reptile or amphibian in the trade descended from animals imported by importers. The vast majority of those were sold by wholesalers. To slam them is to slam yourselves. No, your opinion is not invalid because of the number of snakes you keep. Your opinion is invalid because of your lack of logic and your self-righteous attitude.
 
We are already witnessing signs of in-breeding depression in too many captive-bred reptiles. When/if the importers/wholesalers are gone, so too will be the fresh bloodlines that keep our hobby viable.
 
I could breed my ball pythons for the next 15 years and never cross lines once. I buy a few snakes from people across the country and can go another 10. Why do we need to keep importing ball pythons again?
 
As evidenced by what exactly?


I don't currently work with ball pythons, but I'm pretty sure all of those morphs didn't just fall out of the sky. They were bred, then in-bred from wild-collected animals.

Bug-eyed Leucistic Texas Ratsnakes, neurological problems in Ball and Carpet Pythons, scaleless-ness in numerous species are just a few examples of the evidence of inbreeding depressions and negative mutations fixed through inbreeding that I need. Sorry that you can't handle opinions that differ from yours.
 
I could breed my ball pythons for the next 15 years and never cross lines once. I buy a few snakes from people across the country and can go another 10. Why do we need to keep importing ball pythons again?


No one is talking about your precious "balls" but you. I am arguing for a need for importers in general. I know this is difficult for you to imagine since you are a "ball" guy, but there are THOUSANDS of interesting species which are not yet fixed into perpetual morph-dom. When the day comes that the entirety of the reptile hobby is less than a dozen captive-bred only species, it will be a sad day for many, even if not for you.
 
Bug-eyed Leucistic Texas Ratsnakes, neurological problems in Ball and Carpet Pythons, scaleless-ness in numerous species are just a few examples of the evidence of inbreeding depressions and negative mutations fixed through inbreeding that I need. Sorry that you can't handle opinions that differ from yours.

I was waiting for this. So to be clear, neurological issues like we see in spider ball pythons and jaguar carpets are a result of inbreeding (is your claim). So the fact that these morphs have been outbred for the last 20 years but still have the neurological issues inherent ONLY to those genes (siblings of jag carpets and spider balls are perfectly fine) leads you to still conclude it's a result of inbreeding?

I'm not sure you understand how genetics work.
 
Let's play a game. You said earlier that I extrapolated incorrectly and that my logic was flawed, so let me try again.

Your claim, and correct me if I'm wrong:

Because importers got us to where we are today, we should continue to support importers even now.

Is that your claim or am I still misunderstanding you?
 
Let's play a game. You said earlier that I extrapolated incorrectly and that my logic was flawed, so let me try again.

Your claim, and correct me if I'm wrong:

Because importers got us to where we are today, we should continue to support importers even now.

Is that your claim or am I still misunderstanding you?


I'm late for work, but WILL reply in depth later. I do think it's funny how you agreed with webslave, but when I agreed with him you took issue presumably because of my "hobby breeder" remark. LOL

Reply pointing our your logical fallacies to follow...
 
I do think it's funny how you agreed with webslave, but when I agreed with him you took issue presumably because of my "hobby breeder" remark. LOL

I think you need to brush up on your reading comprehension. I agreed that PETA has ulterior motives and nothing else. Not sure how you translated that to promoting importers but if it fits your argument...
 
I don't currently work with ball pythons, but I'm pretty sure all of those morphs didn't just fall out of the sky. They were bred, then in-bred from wild-collected animals.

Bug-eyed Leucistic Texas Ratsnakes, neurological problems in Ball and Carpet Pythons, scaleless-ness in numerous species are just a few examples of the evidence of inbreeding depressions and negative mutations fixed through inbreeding that I need. Sorry that you can't handle opinions that differ from yours.

We know that wobble in balls and stargazer are corns have been linked to other mutations. However, while, to my knowledge, wobble remains in spiders, stargazer has, in fact, been unlinked from its original morph (or may not have been linked originally, but had a commonality). To the best of my knowledge, wobble in inherent in spider ball pythons and all of them will have it to some degree, but the stargazer trait, which is similar, is not inherently attached to any particular corn morph, though it was more common in some morphs than in others. They are both neurological problems that effect the animal without impeding feeding or breeding.

Stargazer in corns has continuing breeding trials and testing to try and weed this condition out. New blood from wild caught animals will not necessarily be what we need to create stargazer-free animals, good lines without stargazer to cross into our projects is sufficient. It's still a hereditary trait, and animals can be heterozygous for stargazer without their owners knowing this, and again, WC will not make that go away if that het continues to get passed around.

I am not personally certain that scalelessness constitutes immune system depression. I find those snakes kinda weird looking, yes, and think a snake without scales is just plain odd. But, as far as I am currently aware, they are not inherently less healthy than their scaled counterparts. If you are trying to make the point that a scaleless animal would be less likely to thrive, or to survive at all in its natural habitat, well, my snow corn would probably die in the wild because of his color. My red (2 amel, and 1 hypo) snakes would have a tougher time surviving. Not because they are less healthy, but because they are less fit.

I am not certain that scalelessness creates a less fit animal, but I do think it is possible.


While not wholly a discussion relevant to the BOI, since it was being used as a defense for wholesalers selling wild caught animals, I wanted to put in my comment. Then the connection between importers/wholesalers and warehousing for the animals, and the necessary husbandry to keep them healthy and so on blah blah blah.

Whether we actually need wild caught animals or not to keep our stock genetically diverse, the importers and wholesalers still have an obligation to those animals to treat them well, feed and water them, and give them proper care. The animals didn't choose to be there, we chose to take them and use them for our own purposes.
 
The reason that inbreeding is genetically bad is that it is much more likely for a recessive deleterious gene to present itself when you breed between siblings or between parent and offspring. By outcrossing, you have much greater odds of not only NOT having a detrimental recessive gene express but not passing that recessive part along at all. By consistently outbreeding, you potentially remove these "bad genes" from the gene pool entirely.

That being said, the spider ball python is a dominant gene. It has nothing to do with inbreeding. Same with the jaguar carpet, they're both genetic mutations that popped up randomly, they aren't recessive and so inbreeding has nothing to do with it.

I'm not arguing that inbreeding is good and I do everything I can to avoid it in my own collection, but to argue that we still need importers and use that as your basis is simply ridiculous.
 
Isn't this going a bit off topic? I hate to see us reptile folks fighting amongst ourselves. Even more so when it is going off topic.

As to this video, we just don't have all the facts yet. Please reserve judgements for a time when there is more information.

Then to see members of the reptile community going at each other, it saddens me a lot. Seems like this video has done its job, and among us of all things! And no I'm not advocating blind loyalty to any and all members of the reptile community, but just to wait and gather more information before coming to conclusions.

Every day each of us has a responsibility to our animals whether we have 1 or 1000. Please start with yourself. Use this as an opportunity to make sure your own husbandry is beyond reproach while we are waiting for more facts to come out.
 
I guess I should correct myself, technically they're both codom but the super is lethal...which is why people generally don't breed spider to spider or jag to jag (in other words, they don't inbreed them because they know the babies will die). The argument remains exactly the same except in this case we can visually see the "detrimental recessive gene" and easily avoid doubling up on it.
 
As to this video, we just don't have all the facts yet. Please reserve judgements for a time when there is more information.

I've actually been to a different wholesaler/importer's facility and can say that this video didn't surprise me at all. Whether it's accurate as far as who it's attacking I don't know, I only know what I've seen firsthand.

When someone argues that we need people to import animals and treat them this way because it's good for the industry as a whole, I have a problem with it. That's all it is.
 
The reason that inbreeding is genetically bad is that it is much more likely for a recessive deleterious gene to present itself when you breed between siblings or between parent and offspring. By outcrossing, you have much greater odds of not only NOT having a detrimental recessive gene express but not passing that recessive part along at all. By consistently outbreeding, you potentially remove these "bad genes" from the gene pool entirely.

That being said, the spider ball python is a dominant gene. It has nothing to do with inbreeding. Same with the jaguar carpet, they're both genetic mutations that popped up randomly, they aren't recessive and so inbreeding has nothing to do with it.

I'm not arguing that inbreeding is good and I do everything I can to avoid it in my own collection, but to argue that we still need importers and use that as your basis is simply ridiculous.

I was actually agreeing with you. I'm sorry if it came across like I wasn't. My knowledge is in corns, and I only know a little bit about ball pythons. I knew that the wobble was a part of the spider gene, but that was it really. In corns, it is, fortunately, a recessive trait and there are people doing trials to understand it more.

I don't think it should matter where the animals came from, import or wild caught, we should still expect a certain level of care. It shouldn't just be acceptable because it's a big operation.
 
Back
Top