Isn't this going a bit off topic? I hate to see us reptile folks fighting amongst ourselves. Even more so when it is going off topic.
I really don't see it as fighting among ourselves. More like debating. Debating on a topic that is at the very crux of RBM problem.
Both Mr. Burgener and Mr. White have made valid points.
I am going to try to take both sides, point out how they fit into the current issue.
Mr. White has pointed correctly out that with out importers, we would not have a lot of animals we enjoy today. And it is not only the reptile hobby. Horses, cows, cats, dogs, plants, grains, ect. The list is endless.
Mr. White is also correct that for some species, we do need to have more wild caught/imported brought in.
I think that Mr. Burgener would agree that it should not give us a carte de blanche for everything that can be grabbed off the forest floor. We should be responsible for what we collect, try to strike a balance between over collecting and what is needed in our collections.
Mr. Burgener has pointed out, correctly, that we really don't need any more ball pythons. We also don't need any more horses, cats, dogs, and ferrets. I think he would agree that we can sustain our current populations with what we have.
But imported does not always means wild caught. A lot of tarantulas are Captive Bred in Europe and imported to the United States. Bearded dragons, leopard geckos, ect... A small breeder in West Germany may have had 30 generations of captive breed animals that he sells to a exporter in Germany to be imported into the United States.
And, in my opinion, we should 100% support theses efforts. We really would not have enough of some species to keep the lines pure and breeding them.
Both sides have it correct. But they are debating over the same subject. Mr. White seems to be on the side of more imports are better. Mr. Burgener would like to see some reasonable limits on the imports and more animals bought from captive breeders. But that is the same subject, imports. And both are correct. We need responsible imports of some species. We also need to stop importing of other species. We can argue the details of that, but I think both sides would agree to that.
As for the fatal genetic flaws. That really has nothing to do with the conversation. Mr. Burgener is correct on that front. Just because we see the genes come out from some breeding does not mean there is a ticking time bomb in very line. Most rats come from a handful of individuals on one ship. Almost every animal that exist on Hawaii was from very small founder populations. The problem with captive breeding is snakes that would never survive in wild get forced fed in captivity.
But no Mr. White, because we have these genetic problems in captive populations does not mean we are all doomed. We don't need to import more of some species. The effects that we see from captive breeding is artificially created by us. When we decide to move away from breeding those traits that cause the problems, the problem will go away.
Now to Ms. Allinson, what the heck does this have to do with RBM?
Four things that effect importers that does not really effect private collections.
1.) Transmission of disease.
2.) Transportation injuries/stress.
3.) High volume of product.
4.) Specialized care.
Transmission of disease. To put it bluntly. When you have a large ever changing population animals, you will have disease. You can not properly screen for it, you can not properly contain it, and you may not even know you have it. There is a million things you can do to stop it, but you have to do those million things to thousands of animals coming into and leaving your property. It is very easy to get overwhelmed. And it is very easy for one disease to get your whole colony sick. Quarantine works, but you can not give 1 imported animal 1 storage area to themselves. It will happen. It happens in private collections under perfect care. When you add thousands of animals, it becomes worst.
Transportation injuries/stress. Any keeper and breeder knows this problem. The animal is perfectly fine until it is shipped then the best get injured and die. Anything that injuries the animal in shipping requires extra care when they get in. And that care can take time. Importing wild caught animals, the death rate is obscene to most rational keepers. 50%-100% death rates are completely common. Injuries of very sort is reported. It is some thing importers have to deal with. To be fair, a lot of these animals are bought off food markets. Where they are suppose to be killed and cooked. So they are not in the best care anyway. Private keepers, not so much.
High volume of product. This will nail every importer to the floor every once in a while. They get an order/s in, only to find that it contains thousands of animals. Each of them need to be checked, watered, housed, and cared for. The sick and wounded to need to be separated. You can have a perfect facility with just 10 people, toss in thousands of new animals and you will get overwhelmed very easily. And with that, everything above becomes more of a problem. If you get a shipment of bearded dragons in that came from a shipping truck that wrecked, you will have injuries. Private collections keep the numbers small.
Specialized care. You wonder why they have so many anoles running around. Because some wild caught animals will only eat anoles. They are masters of escaping. A large, wild caught or specialized import contains animals that are not eating frozen thaw mice. Specialized care means more time. More time means easier to get overwhelmed.
I know most of the people here understand all the above. But it is the crux of the problem.
To be a good importer, you need a lot of capital. Which means you need a lot of sales. Which means you need a lot of animals. And that means you end up getting the above problems.
Can we stop importing, no.So, both of them are right and wrong and completely on topic. In my opinion, importers are a necessary evil. They exist because we want to protect a species in a world that is trying to kill it. But we should not paint a rosy picture and go hog wild on it either.
The reason that RBM's video was soo graphic is simply because importing is graphic. You get sick and dying animals. You get overwhelm very easily. It happens. In the perfect world, you would have perfect outcomes. But when you take things out of context and place them in a carefully edited video, it making everything look worst.
Sorry for the long rant, just something that gets under my skin.
WHAT??? NOT REAL???
