Required profile fields.

[AbsoluteApril]

and Rich responded to some questions in a manner that suggested that using a defined geographical area would be good enough.

Haven't read the last few posts yet but just to make sure I am 100% clear - does this mean my location of 'Bay Area, CA' isn't going to cut it anymore?


Guess I better stop procrastinating getting security cameras. heck, I don't even tell local people I could consider good acquaintances exactly where I live. Yes, I may be paranoid, but I feel it's a legitamte concern (theft).

 

[DAND]

Haven't read the last few posts yet but just to make sure I am 100% clear - does this mean my location of 'Bay Area, CA' isn't going to cut it anymore?

If you check the section where you can make the changes it says City and State are now required.

 

[Southern Wolf]

Haven't read the last few posts yet but just to make sure I am 100% clear - does this mean my location of 'Bay Area, CA' isn't going to cut it anymore?


Guess I better stop procrastinating getting security cameras. heck, I don't even tell local people I could consider good acquaintances exactly where I live. Yes, I may be paranoid, but I feel it's a legitamte concern (theft).

Join the club April... but on top of Theft... I also have to worry about ex-cons or their aquantances having an easier time of finding me now. Do a search on my name and reptiles and the number 3 site that pops up is Fauna. Number 1 and 2 are my site... and I dont list a location on my site.

At what point is the general public going to take responsiblilty for themselves and say enough is enough. How much privacy are we willing to give up in the so called name of safety.

It's real simple folks.... buy everything online with a CREDIT CARD... and if you get scammed do a charge back. I have had to do that before and once I provided my CC company with all the info they initiated the chargeback in under a week.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Join the club April... but on top of Theft... I also have to worry about ex-cons or their aquantances having an easier time of finding me now. Do a search on my name and reptiles and the number 3 site that pops up is Fauna. Number 1 and 2 are my site... and I dont list a location on my site.

At what point is the general public going to take responsiblilty for themselves and say enough is enough. How much privacy are we willing to give up in the so called name of safety.

It's real simple folks.... buy everything online with a CREDIT CARD... and if you get scammed do a charge back. I have had to do that before and once I provided my CC company with all the info they initiated the chargeback in under a week.

That's also a way for scammers to scam. They buy with a credit card, get the merchandise and then lie to their credit card companies leaving the seller SOL.....

Honestly, if we plan to make this a real business later, the location would have to be listed.

On the humorous side...TOP TEN REASONS NOT TO LIST A LOCATION:

10. Behind in child support
9. A "baby mama" looking for you
8. Hiding from the IRS
7. Illegal Alien
6. Practice Pologamy
5. Hiding from an "Ex"
4. In the Witness Protection Program
3. Fugitive
2. Head of the KKK
1. Pedophile

 

[JudyC]

At what point is the general public going to take responsiblilty for themselves and say enough is enough. How much privacy are we willing to give up in the so called name of safety.

Hmmmmmm... There are many times when I see someone complain about a site's policy, and I'm happy to tell them "If you don't like it, then just leave." But that is SO NOT the case here. I have a great deal of respect for Kevin and would NOT want to see him leave. But having said that, I can't let this comment go without a reply...

Why is it the "general public's" responsibility to decide when YOU've had enough privacy taken from you? In this particular case, the "general public" has nothing to do with the issue at all. It's a private site owned by one guy who can make whatever rules he wishes. In THIS case...YOU are the only one who can decide if enough is enough. If you feel like you have to give up too much to participate here...if you truly feel like doing so puts you or your family in danger...then you DON'T HAVE to do so. No one is forcing or twisting your arm to stay. (Although a few might beg. )

If YOU don't stand up and take action when you feel your own privacy has been too deeply compromised...why should the "general public" do so? Arguing about it might be a first step...but when it becomes clear that the argument bears no weight of change....then what? If all one does is complain and comply...then it shows that they don't take their own complaints very seriously. Yes, it's unfortunate that someone MIGHT one day track you down through this site that otherwise would never have been able to find you any other way....but if you seriously felt threatened by that possibility, then should you continue to complain? Or remove your location from your profile and cease to participate in such a compromising situation?

 

[DAND]

I'm sorry but putting your city down only makes it easier for someone to find you but it is not like someone couldn't have found you if they really wanted to. The internet has pretty much made it almost impossible to retain your privacy anymore.

I understand wanting your privacy. I want my privacy just as much if not more then the next person. But, if you want to do business it is difficult to keep your privacy. I tired it for a long time meeting people in parking lots and to tell you the truth, it has been a lot easier just to have people meet me at my home.

While I do not allow anyone into my home (mainly due to my dog not liking anyone, see animals do start taking on their master's likenesses ) I have my customers pretty much trained to call me before coming over.

I certainly hope this requirement does not cause the loss of some members here. I can understand why someone would stand their ground and not comply but is it really worth not being here and the loss of potential sales from this site? How much is one's privacy worth? How much is someone willing to lose to retain their privacy? I guess time will tell.

 

[WebSlave]

Join the club April... but on top of Theft... I also have to worry about ex-cons or their aquantances having an easier time of finding me now. Do a search on my name and reptiles and the number 3 site that pops up is Fauna. Number 1 and 2 are my site... and I dont list a location on my site.

At what point is the general public going to take responsiblilty for themselves and say enough is enough. How much privacy are we willing to give up in the so called name of safety.

It's real simple folks.... buy everything online with a CREDIT CARD... and if you get scammed do a charge back. I have had to do that before and once I provided my CC company with all the info they initiated the chargeback in under a week.

I kinda like my privacy. I dont let folks come to my house... and if I do local business.... its done two towns over.

Seems to me the solution is simple, then. Simply get a post office box in that town. If your privacy is that important to you, the inconvenience and cost of the post office box should be negligible. Since that is really where you do business anyway, then no harm, no foul.

The point of this is to give prospective buyers and sellers a reference point to go by in their dealings. If someone lists a bogus location (or full name) HERE, that doesn't correspond to the place and/or person they are asked to send funds or merchandise to, THAT should raise a red flag. But without that reference, then they have absolutely nothing to go on to help save them from a potential scam.

That's what I am trying to do here, gang. Not strip you all down naked in public...

 

[Southern Wolf]

Hmmmmmm... There are many times when I see someone complain about a site's policy, and I'm happy to tell them "If you don't like it, then just leave." But that is SO NOT the case here. I have a great deal of respect for Kevin and would NOT want to see him leave. But having said that, I can't let this comment go without a reply...

Why is it the "general public's" responsibility to decide when YOU've had enough privacy taken from you? In this particular case, the "general public" has nothing to do with the issue at all. It's a private site owned by one guy who can make whatever rules he wishes. In THIS case...YOU are the only one who can decide if enough is enough. If you feel like you have to give up too much to participate here...if you truly feel like doing so puts you or your family in danger...then you DON'T HAVE to do so. No one is forcing or twisting your arm to stay. (Although a few might beg. )

If YOU don't stand up and take action when you feel your own privacy has been too deeply compromised...why should the "general public" do so? Arguing about it might be a first step...but when it becomes clear that the argument bears no weight of change....then what? If all one does is complain and comply...then it shows that they don't take their own complaints very seriously. Yes, it's unfortunate that someone MIGHT one day track you down through this site that otherwise would never have been able to find you any other way....but if you seriously felt threatened by that possibility, then should you continue to complain? Or remove your location from your profile and cease to participate in such a compromising situation?

Judy you missed my point. When I said 'general public' I didnt mean that they should decide for me... I meant they should decide for themsleves.

I'll give a couple of examples.

Rich's location rule puts everyone of us here in danger of theft. Some of the members have very nice collections... why make it easier for someone to track you down...especially if thier motives are just to break in. Yes I do understand his reasonings behind it as I have talked to him via PM about this. But at what point does the general public say enough is enough. We are no longer willing to give up our privacy in the name of so called protection.

Another example... take the airport body scanners.... your going thru a digital strip search that leaves nothing to the imagination. Some will say its to keep you safe.... but once again.... when will people say enough is enough. How much privacy do we have to give up in the name of safety. I'll tell you how much Im willing to give up. They can kiss my !!! I refuse to go thru one of those. I am not a criminal and I will not be treated as such!

At what point do we say..... I dont need you to protect me anymore.

As to the 'complain and comply'.... I am working really hard to make my business one that can support me. And to do that... I have to advertise. There are two MAIN classifieds on the web and Fauna is one of them. Why would I want to cut my potential buyers in half? I know exactly how many visitors I get from each site per month... and if it wasnt for that fact.... I may have very well walked away.

 

[Southern Wolf]

I'm sorry but putting your city down only makes it easier for someone to find you but it is not like someone couldn't have found you if they really wanted to. The internet has pretty much made it almost impossible to retain your privacy anymore.

I understand wanting your privacy. I want my privacy just as much if not more then the next person. But, if you want to do business it is difficult to keep your privacy. I tired it for a long time meeting people in parking lots and to tell you the truth, it has been a lot easier just to have people meet me at my home.

While I do not allow anyone into my home (mainly due to my dog not liking anyone, see animals do start taking on their master's likenesses ) I have my customers pretty much trained to call me before coming over.

I certainly hope this requirement does not cause the loss of some members here. I can understand why someone would stand their ground and not comply but is it really worth not being here and the loss of potential sales from this site? How much is one's privacy worth? How much is someone willing to lose to retain their privacy? I guess time will tell.

And if what they have on their mind is either theft or worse..... why make it easier. IF I want someone to find me for a deal..... I WILL TELL THEM!

At work we have to go thru a massive background check.... Im to the point now that I dont let anyone come over.... not even the people I work with. I dont do much local sales... and if I happen to get one. Then I am meeting them somewhere else.

I post more information on my site about my animals than probably 99% of the rest of the breeders out there. I do this for customer service. Now when the multitudes of folks ask for parent photos... I just send a link. Wanna see other babies from the clutch... I just send a link.

Yes.... we give up some pirvacy to be in business.... but I will never have someone come to my location for a pick up. Its just not gonna happen. So far I have turned away 4 people that I work with that wanted to check out my animals... and these guys have been thru more of a background check than anything Rich could put into play or enforce here.

 

[deborahbroadus]

I have a very good Motion Detector Monitored Alarm system. If a window is even broken or opened..alarms sound and lights flash.

I also have a cheapie camera system (that I am going to replace) and pictures of every single animal in my collection.

...and I have rifles and attack parrots.... My neighbors also look out for my house and I have a policeman living next door.

We do what we can to protect ourselves.....

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Just to prove a point about how easy it is to find an address despite everyone's best efforts...Kevin, I located your full address and phone number in 2 minutes. The city is different then what you have in your profile, but I take it you used Rich's advice and used a PO rather then your home.

Their really is no point in arguing about this. It's Rich's decision and the complaints being made really have no substance. 95% of people's personal information can be found online.

 

[Southern Wolf]

Seems to me the solution is simple, then. Simply get a post office box in that town. If your privacy is that important to you, the inconvenience and cost of the post office box should be negligible. Since that is really where you do business anyway, then no harm, no foul.

But legally that is incorrect. Im out in the county and therefore not subject to city ordances or other city rules. Why in the world would I want to make it so my business has an address in a town that has laws and ordances against reptiles? That is just opening yourself up for trouble.

The point of this is to give prospective buyers and sellers a reference point to go by in their dealings. If someone lists a bogus location (or full name) HERE, that doesn't correspond to the place and/or person they are asked to send funds or merchandise to, THAT should raise a red flag. But without that reference, then they have absolutely nothing to go on to help save them from a potential scam.

That's what I am trying to do here, gang. Not strip you all down naked in public...

Rich I respect what your trying to do... and I understand what your trying to do. I did however have an honest location listed. Originally I had Arkansas listed. When someone was dealing with me no red flags were ever raised because of the location field. I even went so far as to change it to NorthEast Arkanasas (thus narrowing down my location).... and still no red flags would have been brought up.

I'll use Harald as an example (sorry Harald).... he had NY's capital district (or something like that).... if someone did a search on an address that he had sent them.... then no red flags would have popped up because a google search would show it could be located in the geographic area. But now he risks folks that only have bad intentions finding him.... and for what. He wasn't raising any red flags with his location. He was being honest.... just like I was being honest with Arkansas or NE Arkansas. IF someone got my address and then compaired to my profiles.... a quick google search would reveal that I was indeed in my location.

I'll use your example Rich... lets say I get a PO box somewhere (it wont be in that town thats not reptile friendly).... and now I buy a snake from someone here. I ask them to ship them to my home address.... now you have forced me to raise red flags... because the town with the PO Box (which is listed in my profile)...is completely different from where I am requesting the snake to be sent. Whereas before absolutely NO FLAGS would have ever been raised.

 

[Southern Wolf]

I have a very good Motion Detector Monitored Alarm system. If a window is even broken or opened..alarms sound and lights flash.

I also have a cheapie camera system (that I am going to replace) and pictures of every single animal in my collection.

...and I have rifles and attack parrots.... My neighbors also look out for my house and I have a policeman living next door.

We do what we can to protect ourselves.....

Im happy for you Deb.... but I'd like to try and stop them before they get that far. An ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure.

Thats all I am trying to do... is protect myself by not putting in a town in the location field. Baltimore (I think thats your location) is a very big place compaird to where some of us live. Its harder to find someone in the big city vs a small town where everyone knows everyone.

 

[Southern Wolf]

Just to prove a point about how easy it is to find an address despite everyone's best efforts...Kevin, I located your full address and phone number in 2 minutes. The city is different then what you have in your profile, but I take it you used Rich's advice and used a PO rather then your home.

Their really is no point in arguing about this. It's Rich's decision and the complaints being made really have no substance. 95% of people's personal information can be found online.

I never said I couldnt be found... I said.. .why make it easier!!!

And Steff.... you are incorrect. I dont have a phone number (only a cell)... so why dont ya PM me that info. I honestly think you are wrong

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I didn't check if it was a cell versus landline when I posted. Just ran it through a reverse phone number look up and it's coming back as a private landline. The information is from 2008, but I was still able to find it with 2 minutes and if I spent a bit of time, I could follow it. I'll PM you the information.

The point is, putting your City/State on Fauna doesn't "make it easier." Information is already available if you know where to look.

 

[Southern Wolf]

And the point is.... criminals are not very smart. I have to deal with them on a daily basis.... this I know for a fact. If they were smart....they wouldnt be in prision.

This is why I dont tell follk (on here or at work) how I bust someone.... I dont need to give them the info to make them smarter.

 

[AbsoluteApril]

fine, not happy about it, but fine.
I put a location, it's where I ship from and where I get deliveries, so that should work.

There are two MAIN classifieds on the web and Fauna is one of them. Why would I want to cut my potential buyers in half? I know exactly how many visitors I get from each site per month... and if it wasnt for that fact.... I may have very well walked away.

Exactly my thoughts as well.

It's not like I really have any high-end stuff but all it takes is for me (*anyone) to post a pic of a nice snake and some stupid tweeker in the same area sees it and thinks 'easy target for a quick buck on CL' or something.

I know the info is out there and can be found with some digging, I'm just with Kevin on this issue and see no need to make it any easier for some criminal that isn't smart enough to figure it out otherwise. Like I said, call me paranoid, but well, I am.

 

[Lucille]

Their really is no point in arguing about this.

We are discussing it. And, there is GREAT point. Rich has never been one to not permit discussion, and interweaved in this new policy are concepts of personal privacy which could, in this day and age, very much stand to be reviewed.

I personally think the policy is overbroad, and do not care for it the way it has been applied. That does not mean I do not care for Fauna of for Rich, I do care, it means that I think, as applied, this policy is not good.

It may not alter the bottom line, but exchanging ideas and opinions has great value here, IMHO.

 

[Wraith]

Have you even read the reasons why it wouldn't work to separate the rules in this matter between two huge halves of the site? First off, this site is about its classifieds. The discussion forums are a bonus for you to enjoy...not some inalienable right.

This site started with the BOI and is/was about people providing a public service to one another in regards to outing scammers/bad guys.. it was not about the classifieds....the discussion forms, classifieds and money solicitations was a secondary development that came later..people wanted an alternative to KS and their so-called nazi-mods/censorship. If anything in some respects over the years this site has become just as censored as KS has (and people fall over themselves to thank Rich for the privilege of being censored more and more each year but cursed the hell out of jeff when he told his mods to enforce his rules). But at least jeff doesn't force people to give up their personal information unless they purchase an account service and then that information is between him and the person who purchased whatever service from him....it is not announced to the world at large UNLESS the account owner chooses to provide their personal information in their ads/posts.

Second off, the original full-name compliance for the BOI was a single element enforced in a single forum. Still a rather huge job for the mods to keep up with, but they managed well enough. To add in a full name AND location requirement for both the BOI and the classifieds requires a different sort of tool for enforcement...which is having that information included in the permanent profile fields of each member. THAT can not be separated from the discussion forums, no matter how much you might wish it to be.

As pointed out above, it existed in a much smaller degree than the new rulings. To make sure that each and every post in the classifieds included a full name and accurate location the same way they check for names on the BOI would be overwhelming and ridiculously work-intensive.

The BOI is not 1 forum, it is currently 8 forums.

And with the way everyone is going on it sounds like you all agree that it would be LESS time consuming for the mods to check every post made across 114 forums to make sure all posts are in FULL compliance of the new rule than it would be to check posts made on the classified forums... which is about 38 forums (40 if you count the member-to-member flea market forum and the adoptions forum)... 114 versus 38(40)....and there are a number of classifieds that are not busy.. a couple ads a month if that.

Who can say who it would have stopped? You don't know. And there are MANY MANY more small-time scammers that are just as guilty of stealing money as the "well known" people. Most of those small timers are not particularly smart and will either be stymied by having to include their location, or will get caught lying about it. Of course, no tool will catch EVERYONE intent on being dishonest...but if Rich wants to put one more layer of protection on top of the ones he already offers, what is so wrong with that?

The majority of the scammers/bad guys outed on this site are those who gave their victims their locations from the beginning. Look at all the SMART people who were taken in by Chris Johnson and who stood up for him when a few people questioned his validity.... they stood up for him and slammed the people who tried to warn them until those folks finally had to learn their lesson the hard way when it was proven he was without a doubt a scammer. Look at all the SMART people who were taken in by the Wise's...they didn't try to hide where they were from. Look at the people who did not want to believe that High End Herps was not who he said he was and did nothing but slam the people who tried to warn them about what kind of deal they were walking into when dealing with him...calling it a proverbial "witch hunt" on an upstanding breeder. ....years of work by a few people trying to warn people about Damon Heynen/David/Josh/and however many other alias'... and the sad thing is it took a little DOG owner to finally bring his ass down this time when the Herp community stood by all these years looking the other way.

The number of scammers who try to pretend to be from some place other than where they say are few and far between in comparison to the bulk of the scammers who DO NOT HIDE. HEH is one of the few scammers who does try to hide his real identity but again even if the new rule had it existed before now it would have DONE NOTHING to have stopped him. He lies about who he is but gave his actual location. He's pulled this stunt as he's moved across the country getting busted and arrested and skipping town to start all over again....and looking at the latest developments.. he's on the run again.. skipped out on his bond just like the last time. You can be sure he'll show up again under a new name but a valid location and people will be scammed by him all over again.

This new rule isn't going to do a damn thing to help this site other than put legit users at risk and leave the door standing open to the scammers who don't bother to hide in the first place.

 

[Wraith]

Another example... take the airport body scanners.... your going thru a digital strip search that leaves nothing to the imagination. Some will say its to keep you safe.... but once again.... when will people say enough is enough. How much privacy do we have to give up in the name of safety. I'll tell you how much Im willing to give up. They can kiss my !!! I refuse to go thru one of those. I am not a criminal and I will not be treated as such!

At what point do we say..... I dont need you to protect me anymore.

And to take that example further... the Feds PROMISED ....PROMISED that the pornographic "images" their scanners take of you and your children could NOT be saved/recorded... that they were erased shortly after being examined... guess what...THEY LIED. The feds were forced to admit that those images can be saved/recorded and thousands upon thousands have been saved/recorded and stored already.

So.. if we want to keep using this site in any shape/form then those of us being forced to provide personal information under duress (outside of business transactions in the classifieds) is Rich going to promise that we are NOT being put at risk? I think for legal reasons he's not going to make such a promise.