Rick Sisco - Sisco Reptiles

[DaveyFig]

Davey, your kidding right? I expained before, Chacoan means Giant. I think he expained it, unless you are trying to over look it.

You can explain that til you are blue in the face. Chacoan means Chaco, or the Chaco plains. If Chacoan means Giant why call them Giants too? Why call them "Giant Giants"?

 

[Gecko_Den]

Nope...just saying that I don't think Bert would be interested in coming here to explain something he explained perfectly well in his (for lack of a better term, since it's a picture and an explanation) article, next to Bobby Hill's tegu. I don't recall saying anything about ONLY this or ONLY that.

Thanks, I was obviously confused by your emphasis on the fact that the tegu pictured was one of Bobby's. As if you were using it to validate some point that you may or may not have been trying to subtly make...

 

[varnyard]

So every tegu in that 280,000 square miles is a giant?

No, hell there can be, and are Argentines there. But these are one of the Chacoans, are there Colombian tegus in that range, yes there are. I never called my tegus Chacoan "White Heads", I called and will continue to call them Chacoan "Giants". And I will not sell normal Argentines with higher white Chacoan "White Heads" when they are normal Argentines with a little higher white.

 

[Tere Salazar]

Thanks, I was obviously confused by your emphasis on the fact that the tegu pictured was one of Bobby's. As if you were using it to validate some point that you may or may not have been trying to subtly make...

Again, nope. I'm not so good at trying to be subtle. If I've got something to say, I usually just come out and say it. But thanks for checking.

 

[Gecko_Den]

No, hell there can be, and are Argentines there. But these are one of the Chacoans, are there Colombian tegus in that range, yes there are. I never called my tegus Chacoan "White Heads", I called and will continue to call them Chacoan "Giants". And I will not sell normal Argentines with higher white Chacoan "White Heads" when they are normal Argentines with a little higher white.

And this is where you are losing me as a few posts up you stated "Chacoan=Giant", but you just admitted that not all animals from the Chaco plains are giants....

 

[varnyard]

And this is where you are losing me as a few posts up you stated "Chacoan=Giant", but you just admitted that not all animals from the Chaco plains are giants....

Yea all of the species of tegu in the US are found in the Chaco plains. There was an old thread on KS where Ron and Stella explained they were Giants, and not the normals with higher white heads, or bodies. That has long ago been deleted on there and I wish I could still get that info.

 

[Laura Fopiano]

Chuga, chuga, chuga, woo woo. Chuga, chuga, chuga, WOO WOO...oh god, no one can hear the the horn a blowin..oh no, oh nooo....uh oh whoopsie! Let's hope that there are survivors!

 

[Gecko_Den]

No, hell there can be, and are Argentines there. But these are one of the Chacoans, are there Colombian tegus in that range, yes there are. I never called my tegus Chacoan "White Heads", I called and will continue to call them Chacoan "Giants". And I will not sell normal Argentines with higher white Chacoan "White Heads" when they are normal Argentines with a little higher white.

I'm not trying to bust your balls Bobby, just trying to understand what you are saying, minus the personal stuff. Correct me if I am wrong:

1) Your issue (one of them at least) is that Sisco is calling his Tegus "Chacoan White Heads". Your basing this on your opinion that they aren't from Chaco Plains and that their excessive white is just a color anomaly. You claim he shouldn't be calling them anything other than Argentine B&W's because he hasn't proven that the "white head" can be genetically reproduced on a consistent basis?

2) You feel you should be able to call yours "Chacoan Giants", even though there is no way to prove they are from Chaco plains, and you said yourself that them being "giants" doesn't prove it as all Chacoans are not necessarily giants?

3) Have you bred your "giants" long enough that you have 3 year old offspring (you mentioned earlier that they are mature at 3 yrs) that prove that "Giant" is a trait that is passed on consistently? If not, than is calling the offspring "giants" any different than Sisco calling his "white heads"?

Thanks

 

[DaveyFig]

I'm pretty sure Bert has no interest in coming here and explaining something he explains perfectly well in the print next to the picture of Bobby Hill's tegu.

Ok,There is a picture there of what Bobby calls Extreme Giants. They were formerly known as Chacoan White Giants.
Bobby has sense dropped Chacoan, and calls them simply Extreme Giants.
The picture is of one of Bobby's animals, and is in this months magazine, with PART of an obsolete name. Simply Chacoan. No mention of being white, or Giant. I think you and I have different ideas on perfect explanations.

 

[Chameleon Company]

First off, an absolutely friggin great picture Laura ! I can't give karma, but if I could, you just got a heap !

Sam, I can't say as I have memorized every post in this thread to know exactly who said what when, but in the hypothetical, and based on your query, I would agree that everyone has the right to trot out a brand name, and it then becomes a question of just how unique or distinctive what they have really is, and that will be debated. If the distinction, in this case, "white head" or "giant", doesn't hold up, or is shown to have been described by another earlier and labeled differently, then it will likely lose its niche quickly. Which then brings us back to Laura's picture ! Classic !

 

[Seamus Haley]

Davey, your kidding right? I expained before, Chacoan means Giant. I think he expained it, unless you are trying to over look it.

That's just it Bobby, you have posted a few conflicting statements- I suspect it's a situation where you know what you intended to say but the typed words simply didn't end up accurately explaining it.

1) It's been established using regional maps posted in this thread that Chaco is the term applied to a large chunk of South America, crossing several borders and covering a space that has wildly divergent microhabitats.

2) Due to the questionable standards inherent in accurate labeling for wild caught south american species, nobody- especially not those working with captive bloodlines- in the US is going to be likely to verify with 100% certainty which region their animals originated from. The best that can be applied is some solid guesswork and evidence; such as physical similarities to characteristics described in wild populations.

3) Bobby has animals that display traits that he believes to be identical to those displayed by animals in the Chacoan area. I would, genuinely be interested in seeing some hard basis for this determination, some kind of description or analysis that led to that conclusion since it has been established that collection data is absent. Bobby continues to use the locale label despite being unable to verify beyond all doubt the origin of his animals.

4) Rick has animals that display traits which he believes to be identical to those displayed by animals in the Chacoan area. I would, genuinely be interested in seeing some hard basis for this determination, some kind of description or analysis that led to that conclusion since it has been established that collection data is absent. Rick has acknowledged that the traits, while bearing such a similarity that they led him to his previous determination, are not conclusively verifiable and stopped using the label some time ago.

5) The part I am having a somewhat difficult time wrapping my head around- and if I am reading it correctly, the same thing Davey is questioning- is the inherent hipocrasy of either party claiming the other's animals are definitely not Chacoan. Given the area involved, it seems perfectly reasonable to me that populations from different microhabitats within Chaco would display divergent traits, each subtly evolving to meet the pressures of the local environment.

6) The reverse of a conclusion is not always accurate. It's a square/rectangle situation. If one assumes that whatever evidence the individual parties collected is sufficient to convince them of the origin of their animals, it doesn't exclude the other from being so. All giant tegus may be from Chaco, it does not follow that all Chacoan tegus must be giants. The same can be said for the white head trait, which it seems Rick understands. All squares are rectanlges, not all rectangles are squares.

7) As far as I know, and please correct me if I am wrong, neither of these guys has been professionally educated in zoology or personally participated in south american feild work. At least, not to the point where they could be said to be authorities on the subject of anything other than keeping the species in captivity. Anything either of them has to say should be taken with a massive grain of salt and understood to be the personal and antecdotal observations of extremely dedicated and invested hobbiests- they're not "doing" science, they're supplying animals for the pet trade and there is a world of difference between the two situations. At least the way these guys approach it.

I'm more familiar with and inclined to take the word of Bobby, through these forums such as it may be... but so far, with regards to the locality aspect of this clusterf@#$ of an argument, Rick has said fewer things that were self-contradicting. I don't like Rick's TOS when shipping, but I'm not obligated to buy from him so that's as far as that goes. The personal stuff with regards to Daytona... well, most of it seems to have been explained and characterized heavily in retrospect past the point where the two had a falling out and I frankly don't really think it's entirely relevant to business dealings. This time anyway.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Ask any Uruguayan or Brazilian what's an Argentine tegu and they would more than likely laugh in your face. In both countries the "lagarto" is T. merianae and not "Argentine", which is a named coined in the U.S. just to market the animals.

Those that are interested in expanding their knowledge about tegus should get in touch with David Fabius in Uruguay http://dfabius.tripod.com/tupimerianae.htm . Not a very fancy web page but at least he knows what he is talking about. David lives and breeds reptiles in Uruguay, we have known each other for over 30 years, and we have been herping together on countless ocassions in the past (including capturing wild tegus). I visited his breeding facilities there twice last year, and I'm going to be in the Chaco this next August. You can even ask Bert who David is or you can visit with him in person in Daytona as he is there every year.

Best

 

[varnyard]

Well see the problem is, Ron has not called White heads Chacoan tegus for a very long time, Rick broke out a Screen shot for 1999 to claim he does. However his website now in 2008 says White heads. It was a couple years ago that Ron and Stella claimed the Chacoan were the giants.

Rick says:

Color nor size dictate what a "chacoan" is, though they do typically tend to be lighter. It's the region from which they are collected that makes them 'chacoan'.

Me:

And Rick, do show the juvy/sub-adults you have like mine, you claim yours are the same, show the proof. Lets see those creamy silver babies.

Rick:

If I didn't sell out of them a month after producing them, if I still had one here, I would indeed take a picture for you to place under your pillow too.

Thus claiming to produce the same exact Giants as mine, well he has none of these and does not want to admit to that fact. His video of his adult breeders show that his tegus are much, much smaller than mine and are not the same animals as he claims, they are not even close, but then calls me a fraud.

As for the Color of the Argentine tegus, the tegus found farther south are darker to soak up sun, the live in a cooler region. The lighter tegus like my giants are farther north and are lighter to reflect heat. The climate is much warmer in the northern region as it is closer to the equator.

 

[varnyard]

Quote:

Posted by Rollin on March 18, 2003 at 20:27:19:

In Reply to: Are all whiteheads Chacoans? (NP) posted by bast on March 18, 2003 at 12:48:12:

Here's a E-mail I got from Bert when I asked for a chacoan.
> > > > You mean : With white heads.
> > > > Plenty of the babies have white heads.
> > > > I have ARGENTINE origin tegus and they have much
> > > > more white then the ones
> > > > from Paraguay.
> > > > Chaco is the most southern part of Paraguay and
> > > > stretches further into
> > > > northern Argentina.
> > > > I was there a few years ago.

So I guess the answer is no not all tegus with white heads are chacoan.

http://forum.kingsnake.com/tegu/messages/13036.html

http://www.ecommerce-ceeduu.com/www...u-Albino-Teg_bf54f768782afaebb0961bc8f7a318a8

http://www.geckosunlimited.com/community/other-herps/25355-my-tegu.html

 

[kmurphy]

Thus claiming to produce the same exact Giants as mine

Bobby, you've been asked several times to show where Rick made this claim. You seem to be claiming that since Rick called his "chacoan white heads" and "chacoan=giants" then the logical progression is that Rick is calling his giants. But you've stated yourself that not all tegus from the Chaco Plains are giants, so where's the logic? Can you show that Rick ever used the description of "Chacoan Giants", or even giants, to describe his tegus?

 

[snake5007]

Bobby, you've been asked several times to show where Rick made this claim. You seem to be claiming that since Rick called his "chacoan white heads" and "chacoan=giants" then the logical progression is that Rick is calling his giants. But you've stated yourself that not all tegus from the Chaco Plains are giants, so where's the logic? Can you show that Rick ever used the description of "Chacoan Giants", or even giants, to describe his tegus?

In the screenshot Rick has Argentine, white heads and Chacoans all listed seperately. What other Chacoans are there? the white heads and Argentines could be called Chacoans, but seeing as they are listed seperately only the giants are left.

 

[kmurphy]

In the screenshot Rick has Argentine, white heads and Chacoans all listed seperately. What other Chacoans are there? the white heads and Argentines could be called Chacoans, but seeing as they are listed seperately only the giants are left.

I believe the screen shot you're referring to is Ron's not Rick's.

 

[scotty77327]

If you look it was uploaded by Rick to his site .

 

[snake5007]

I believe the screen shot you're referring to is Ron's not Rick's.

Oops. That serves me right for not paying attention.

 

[RJK890]

.02

Rick,
You said you purchased your tegu's as "Chacoan White Heads," and that you believe that they are from Chaco, right.
Who did you purchase them as "Chacoan White Heads" from, Was it Ron?

From what I have read in this thread it sounds like Ron was the first one to use the "Chacoan" title for marketing his "White Heads," and that Rick's tegu's fit the description to also be "Chacoan White Heads." Rick also believes that his tegu's are from the Chaco region. So IMO,whether it was a marketing name or a local name he was not wrong to use it.

Ron and Rick have decided to stop using "Chacoan" and just call their tegu's "White Heads" because they can not prove the origin of them, and don't want to misrepresent animals. Doesn't sound like fraud to me.

Bobby still calls his tegu's "Chacoan Giants," even though he can not prove that they are from the Chaco region either. Although Bobby can not prove that his tegu's are Chacoan he thinks that he has the right to call his tegu's "the only true Chacoans" and that anyone else claiming to have Chacoan tegu's is a fraud .

If Rick and Ron are not calling their tegu's Chacoan anymore (even though they may actually have the true Chacoans,) then what is the big deal? They were both calling theirs "Chacoan White Heads," and although nobody can prove that their tegu's are not from the Chaco region they have dropped the local name "Chacoan" because they can not prove where the tegu's were actually collected from. Bobby, IMO, if you can't prove where your tegu's were collected either then you should also stop using the name "Chacoan" and just call your tegu's "True Giants." Nobody is claiming that they have the same animal as you or calling their tegu's "Giants."