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Rick Sisco - Sisco Reptiles

No, but you apparently missed your user name being attached to it.

You still haven't answered how your example was relevant to this situation. I didn't ask what other examples could have been used.

Wonder away, because i can't divert attention from someone who isn't here to post in the first place.

The fact that your example was crummy and irrelevant, maybe?
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For crying out loud. What difference does it make that you don't like her example? It was just an example!! Do you think there some hidden meaning to her choice of Australia?? This has to be one of the most inane sidetracks to grace the BOI.
 
I KNEW there would be a good time to use this.....

train_wreck.jpg
 
Ok now several hundred posts later and a lot of information about tegus. Thank you to those that have provided it. I have a question.....


Has anyone been to Berts site and how does his "Argentine Giant Tegu" fit into this discussion of exclusive?

http://www.agamainternational.com/home.html

The said link takes you to a B and W rundown with some nice pics of animals that have some characteristics that I think I have seen on the thread.
 
I think Bert's article refers to all argentine black and white tegus as "Argentine Black and White Giant Tegus" because the arg B&W is the largest of the types. I don't think it's referring to a particular "brand" or "strain" of argentine B&W, from what I read. The articles on there are awesome, and the pictures!! Whew. Gorgeous pictures.
 
kmurphy said:
For crying out loud. What difference does it make that you don't like her example? It was just an example!! Do you think there some hidden meaning to her choice of Australia?? This has to be one of the most inane sidetracks to grace the BOI.
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I can see your point Kevin, but what gets me is that she's going on about how you can't prove a negative, when she hasn't proven some of the statements she's made as positive:


Wolfy-hound said:
You DID ask me to come to your site, you DID ask those others to come to your site, and you know it.
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That's not the only one either.
 
Any further off topic posting in this thread will from this point on be considered as "maliciously destructive".
 
So the thread has come full circle. Rick is once again a good guy that shipped a tegu wrong, and fixed the problem.
The name Chacoan has nothing to do with being from the Chaco plains, but is used to describe 2 phenotypes, one of which Rick has.
The term "Giant" is(or at least was) used by Bert to distinguish between the argentine black and white, and the colombian black and white.
This back fired bad, if the way I am interpreting it is correct.
It seems that Rick not only has Chacoans, but since "giant" applies to all black and whites, he has Chacoan Giants!
With all that said, they still aren't the same thing as Bobbys. Bobby has huge,awesome animals, but with the attitude he has shown here, I'll not see one in my collection any time soon.
 
Bobby purchased 2.2 Argentine Black & White Tegus from Ben Seigal. Bobby stated several times that Ben Seigal told him they are Ron's breeders. Bobby, knowing that Ron was getting out of breeding his Chacoan tegus at that time, made the logical jump that what he was purchasing from Ben, was Ron's breeding Chacoans.

The term Chacoan, is clearly defined by the breeder (Ron & Stella St Pierre) who coined the term. A 'Chacoan' is not from a wild caught tegu(s) in the Chaco region of Argentina, but rather a selectively bred normal large Argentina Black & White Tegu male obtained from Bert Langerwerf (Agama International) bred with other normal Argentine Black & White Females also obtained from Bert. There were selectively bred, and in the second year it was noticed they were not as dark as some of the 'standard' Argentine Black & White Tegus. Each year the best (larger ones with less black?) were kept back for future breeding. So, a Chacoan is just a selectively bred Argentine Black & White. It is not a morph or phase, as the results do not guarantee 100% results, just a higher likelihood of obtaining larger, less dark tegus.

Over time, some of the Chacoans were exceptionally high white, these were selectively bred even further for lighter colors. Again, these are not morphs or color phases, just selectively bred for "White Heads".

I am glad this has all been resolved. We have the facts and people can do with them as they see fit.

Personally, since none of them are actually from the Chaco region of Argentina, I feel it would be dishonest as worst, confusing at best, to keep the Chacoan name. I will still be dropping the term "Chacoan" and sticking with "White Heads", I will also rewrite my description to explain exactly what they are. Not regional morphs, not color phases.. just prettier or larger, high white headed Argentine Black & Whites.

Thank you all for the time you have invested into keeping up with this thread and trying to help clear this up.

Rick Sisco
 
Myself said:
There were selectively bred, and in the second year it was noticed they were not as dark as some of the 'standard' Argentine Black & White Tegus. Each year the best (larger ones with less black?) were kept back for future breeding. So, a Chacoan is just a selectively bred Argentine Black & White. It is not a morph or phase, as the results do not guarantee 100% results, just a higher likelihood of obtaining larger, less dark tegus.
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It should have read..

They were selectively bred, and in the second year it was noticed they were not as dark as some of the 'standard' Argentine Black & White Tegus. Each year the best (larger ones with less black?) were kept back for future breeding. So, a Chacoan is just a selectively bred Argentine Black & White. It is not a morph or phase, as the breedings do not guarantee 100% results, just a higher likelihood of obtaining larger, less dark tegus.

Rick Sisco
 
RIck, I can certainly understand why you are choosing to leave "Chacoan" off of the description.
I also have to say, I am impressed with the way you carried yourself throught this whole mess. It would have been easy to resort to name calling and back lashing, but you kept your composure, and were here answering questions you knew the answers to.
 
Personally, since none of them are actually from the Chaco region of Argentina, I feel it would be dishonest as worst, confusing at best, to keep the Chacoan name. I will still be dropping the term "Chacoan" and sticking with "White Heads", I will also rewrite my description to explain exactly what they are. Not regional morphs, not color phases.. just prettier or larger, high white headed Argentine Black & Whites.
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The original denomination of Chacoan was not meant to be deceptive, it was just a "fancy" name (just as Mojave ball pythons cannot be found in the Mojave desert!). Deceptive? Only if the seller claims his animals actually originated in the Chaco when he doesn't have a clue where they are from. Although the original tegus imported in the U.S. are likely from Argentina (and maybe quite a few from the Chaco itself), they could have also originated in Paraguay, Brazil or Uruguay. The point is that Argentinian black and white tegus is also just a denomination, and NOT a locale.
 
Dan,
Just a minor disagreement. I think the use of the label "Chacoan" in this case, even if innocent, is at least a far poorer choice than the use of the word "Mojave" in ball pythons, for two reasons important to the argument here:

1) As you note, the Chacoan Plain is a specific geographic designation, where tegu's are found. It is therefore grossly misleading to potential buyers to label a tegu "Chacoan" which is not from that region. In the extreme, use of the term "Chacoan" would be of dubious integrity in a legal review if someone claimed they paid for a tegu of "Chacoan origins", based solely on the implications of the name, in that the buyer would have a case, and the seller a liability. I do not think the seller needed to actually "claim" it was from Chaco in order for it to be viewed as deceptive, whether intended or not, and on that point, I disagree with your take. An explanation would be required to keep it from being deceptive, intentions not mattering.

2) Secondly, and more importantly here, since it meant nothing to all the sellers regarding the actual origin of the "morph", if it is even that, in a peer sense it was fair game for anyone to pretty much use it as they saw fit. Bobby's argument was rooted in some sort of claim to the word "Chacoan" as he defined it, and he owned no such definition in any review, as others had applied it differently, and geographically incorrectly, before him. Which gets me back to my first point. Once the legal veracity of the term "Chacoan" became moot to all involved, they had no basis on which to claim any new meaning as proprietary.

For differing portions of both of the above arguments, it seems all parties have dropped it.

I think we're in 99% agreement on all things here anyway :).
 
Chameleon Company said:
Dan,
Just a minor disagreement. I think the use of the label "Chacoan" in this case, even if innocent, is at least a far poorer choice than the use of the word "Mojave" in ball pythons, for two reasons important to the argument here:

1) As you note, the Chacoan Plain is a specific geographic designation, where tegu's are found. It is therefore grossly misleading to potential buyers to label a tegu "Chacoan" which is not from that region. In the extreme, use of the term "Chacoan" would be of dubious integrity in a legal review if someone claimed they paid for a tegu of "Chacoan origins", based solely on the implications of the name, in that the buyer would have a case, and the seller a liability. I do not think the seller needed to actually "claim" it was from Chaco in order for it to be viewed as deceptive, whether intended or not, and on that point, I disagree with your take. An explanation would be required to keep it from being deceptive, intentions not mattering.

2) Secondly, and more importantly here, since it meant nothing to all the sellers regarding the actual origin of the "morph", if it is even that, in a peer sense it was fair game for anyone to pretty much use it as they saw fit. Bobby's argument was rooted in some sort of claim to the word "Chacoan" as he defined it, and he owned no such definition in any review, as others had applied it differently, and geographically incorrectly, before him. Which gets me back to my first point. Once the legal veracity of the term "Chacoan" became moot to all involved, they had no basis on which to claim any new meaning as proprietary.

For differing portions of both of the above arguments, it seems all parties have dropped it.

I think we're in 99% agreement on all things here anyway :).
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Jim,

I hear you, and as Rick stated it's "confusing at best". This is true and would probably require from the seller to be constantly disclaiming the true origin of the animals. What happens is that recently we have all grown increasingly sensitive to the names used to describe the animals. When labeled as "Chacoans" by the original breeders/keepers, I'm almost certain none of them even thought about future implications. Different times, and probably a different contexts if you will. The "Congo" ball python is such an example. But I hear what you are saying. It's easier to avoid misunderstandings and drop the name altogether than having to be constantly explaining where they are from.

Regards.
 
I don't know where this post went wrong, but I'm still going to stick with my first post on this thread.

Even though Rick and I have had our disputes, I'm still standing by my word when I said that his business transaction was extremely professional and the quality of his tegus were exceptionally high. Just because we've had problems in the past doesn't mean its going to change my answer.

Back to the topic guys.
 
Considering that everything was wrapped up nicely over a month ago, I would say everyone has been on topic for at least 30 days, lol. If you read the entire thread you would see that Rick came out pretty good on this one.
 
Ah, didnt see that. I just happened to see this thread on the side of the website on fauna's main page.
 
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