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Ripped off by Patrick Renwick

ROb If the chams ended up dead your the first and only one to know this
He has never said anything from me
He says in his e-mails above that he will send them all back so I do not think there dead
even if they are he should have contacted me but he never did
 
He is now saying that he will send the truck and is trying to do what is right
he claims that one of the chams is not looking good and has been that way since he opened the box. Today is the first I have herd this from him. I gave him some suggestions and I also said I would replace it if it dies even though my 48hr ran out sunday and he never said BOO HOO about it I am trying to be fare with him, if I get my end of the deal
 
As ubelievably aggrivating as Neil can be spouting off time and again about "never shipping first," I have to admit that he is absolutely right! NONE of this would have been a problem for you, Jim, if you had stuck to your guns and refused to ship first.

I understand the logic of shipping herps versus non-living items, but the fact remains that what you are actually doing is trading property worth equal sums of money. When it's looked at in this light (which is hard to do, because we think of our animals differently than just "property"), there is NEVER a reason to ship first when the other person instigated the trade offer.

I, for one never will ship first in a trade. Threads like this one do nothing but ever-increasingly reinforce that conviction in my mind!

:eek3:
 
isn't it illegal to ship USPS?

I could be wrong (Wouldn't be the first time) but isn't it illegal to ship anything live through US Postal System? Illegal, like as in Federal offense illegal, (USPS is Federal isn't it?) not just against the rules? And isn't it okay to ship lizards VIA Airborne but your not supposed to ship Snakes? But even if you do, it's not "Illegal" just against the rules?

I may have this all confused, but the guy hollering about legalities while threatening to ship LIVE lizards VIA ground USPS with inadequete (SP?) heat supply may want to cover his own butt before he starts hollering about someone elses exposed areas!
 
Ya know.... Jim.... you might have done a foolish thing, but.... when it somes right down to it, this Pat is a real SLIMEBALL!!.... Because you (Jim) posted this on here, he's going to make the Chams suffer because of it???.... Why doesn't he just keep the chams and drown them!.... It would be a lot more humane than having them freeze to death slowly with onl a lousy 12-hour hand warmer and sent USPS.... and you know damned well that he won't pay for Next Day!!.... This guy really makes my blood boil!.... Then to threaten with a slander suit?? (I know, Seamus.... it's LIBEL!, lol).... what the hell is HE out???.... YOU'RE the one out the babies!!.... If those chams are dead when you get them back, I wouldn't mind putting Pat in a freezer, myself!.... PAT, you ought to be ashamed of yourself!.... sure, pick on the poor, defenseless baby chams.... you're a real hero, huh??.... Gonna sue me, too??

....Neil
 
Cheryl,

USPS will take most live lizards as far as I know. They prohibit snakes of any kind, but you can send scorpions (even some of the most venomous types in the world!) with no problem at all.

Sounds too stupid to be true? Remember it is a government agency we're talking about, and it will all make sense to you in a minute!


:uzi:regulations
 
Ups will take live animals on exception basis only,
I can bring the book home and quote it tomorrow if you want
Oh PAAAATT..... hey expletive its against postal regulations to ship live animals
Oh PAAAATTT...hey expletive I ship oversized 2, additional handling, residental packages cross country everyday and they barely will hit $100 now packages the size your talking about[ I know my rc trucks and accessories] might hit 50 dollars and thats under 30 lbs. Got a 31 lb truck
Oh PAAAAATTT...gee expletive can you spell better [I thought for sure Neil would get you here]
Oh PAAAATT expletive expletive do the right thing and honor the original deal
 
You can ship live animals with usps but most places will not guarentee over night delivery, and airborne will take snakes as well, but it needs to be worked out with them first I think, just like me shipping chams their rules state they do not take live animals but they will ship them, but neither place will replace them if they die

And gee thanks neil rub it in. I give in 1 time and look what happens( LOL )

Pat says he is not going to send the chams back I think he was just venting HA HA
He seems to be working with me now.
I will post back when all has been cleared up

I do not think I would of had a chance if it was not for this board
thanks webmaster you may have saved another life.

Jim Scharphorn
www.coolcrittersbylj.com ( come check out some cool pictures )
 
Hate to tell you this guys but as of October 1st, 2001, USPS does not accept ANY live animal shipments of any sort. That's no ifs, ands or buts. They posted it for several months prior to it going intoo effect. It is a violation of Postal Regulations and you can be fined.

That said, I have a slightly different take on this situation than the majority.

I agree that Pats response of "I'll Sue" is a rather childish and pretty much an empty knee-jerk threat. But Jim... can you say jumped the gun? Your chams arrived on Friday. Shipping anything via a major carrier on Saturday is difficult to say the least. The drop off hours are usually till noon. Also, it was never promised. I would most assuredly not have expected a 30 pound package to be sent any method but ground so the Saturday shipping would only have changed the transit time form 4 or 5 days to 5 or 6.

Granted the lack of response to emails and calls was probably annoying but it could very possibly be legitamately explained. I would definitely consider that him shipping Monday when your animals arrived Friday to fall within the definition of "stat". I think your misreading the word Stat for meaning Saturday was the major contributing factor to this situation being blown way out of proportion, I'm sorry to say, mainly by you. Given the informative and pleasant tone of Pat's original Emails, my feeling is that your truck would have been shipped as planned on Monday.

Again, Pat's response was immature and way over the top and threatening to send the animals back without proper heat is unconscionable. However, I really do think that the problem here was, to a major degree, precipitated by you.
 
John, sorry to pop your bubble But if shipping meant monday then why did it not get shipped monday ?

I jumped when I emailed Pat, Friday , saturday, sunday, monday, with no responce 4 days can you count ? and as far as usps you need to come out of the wood work and get in with the year 2003 or 2002 back in 2001 they did stop taking animals but that has ended in 2002 if your postmaster tells you no, then he has not done his homework and has not followed up on this.
You can ship animals with usps but most places will not guarentee over night.
Not trying to be rude but you at least need to have the right info before posting.
 
I'll have to agree with John's statement. Things could have been handled a little different.

To fulfill his part of the deal Pat will have to either ship the truck (he should have shipped it already) or (according to his interpretation of the terms of the deal) return the chams. The fact is that he should return them in the same shape as he received them, 5 live veiled chamaleons. Thus, I don't believe it's Jim's responsibility to decide whether they should be shipped or not.
It is Pat's responsibility to make sure they make it back alive, whether he has to pay overnight, airborne or delta.

Having said this, I don't feel Pat should pay shipment both ways. Pat mentioned that if he was not satisfied with the chams he had the option of returning them. Jim never mentioned that Pat had to pay both ways if he decided to return the chams. Jim's silence on that issue could be interpreted as a tacit agreement with Pat's position.

At least that's the way I view it.


Best regards.
 
Hate to tell you this guys but as of October 1st, 2001, USPS does not accept ANY live animal shipments of any sort.
Click to expand...

Do you have a link or any documentation on this, because my PO does accept live shipments if the weather isn't extreme, and if you take the animals to the right PO. This was as of a couple of months ago. Are you certain that this wasn't a temporary thing?
 
John,

USPS will and does still accept Live Reptiles for shipments. They will not guarantee next day arrival any longer and will not allow shipments if the temps are over 90 degrees. Believe me, if they were not allowed to ship them anymore I would not be shipping with them at all. (I still use them for inside the state of Florida on most packages) My local Postmaster is a stickler when it comes to the rules and he and I have discussed this on many occasions specially before they made it where they will not guarantee next day for live animals. I would suggest you do a little more research and contact another person at your PO as the one that has told you that information was incorrect and obviously does not know the rules and regulations. Below is the exact term from USPS aboutthe acceptance of Live Reptiles for shipment.

Small Cold-Blooded
Animals
3.2
Small, harmless, cold-blooded animals (except snakes and turtles) that do not
require food or water or attention during handling in the mail and that do not create
sanitary problems or obnoxious odors are mailable (e.g., baby alligators and
caimans not more than 20 inches long, bloodworms, earthworms, mealworms,
salamanders, leeches, lizards, snails, and tadpoles).
 
Rob & Jim

I stand corrected on the issue of the USPS. I distinctly remember all of the advertising when the ban went into place. Apparently they did not go to any great lengths to let the public know when the ban was lifted. I did a little research after jim's last post and found the same passage that Rob posted on the USPS.com website. They still do not accept snakes or turtles (which eliminates a large portion of the reptile trade) but I was definitely misinformed on the general ban still being in force.

I know that this topic has been batted back and forth on numerous threads over the last year with the majority of the opinion that it WAS against Postal regs so it is good to finally have it set straight.

Now that the side issue has been addressed, Jim, in answer to your rather hostile response, yes i can count. Lets do a little counting.

1. You shipped for Friday delivery which means Pat did not receive the animals till sometime around Noon on Friday at the earliest

2. You did not receive any contact on Friday from Pat.

3. You said yourself you made numerous attempts at contact from Friday on through the weekend. These Emails over the weekend have been the only ones you have chosen not to post. If the header on this thread as well as the tone of your opening post are any indication, "What can I do to ruin his life ?" I am sure the tone of those Emails was probably somewhat hostile to say the least.

4. You had no way of knowing whether he had shipped the truck or not. You simply had not gotten a response to your attempts at contact. You misread one of his posts to read Saturday instead of Stat which was the reason you originally posted that he was supposed to ship Saturday.

5. In the very early morning hours on Monday (less than 3 full days from the time the animals arrived...see...I can count Jim) You posted this thread. Your first entry strongly led everyone reading this thread to believe that a substantial time period had elapsed since this transaction had taken place. "I sent some live animals first, and Patrick was suppose to send after and I never heard from him again." This definitely does not sound like it refers to a three day time period. It sounds more like weeks have elapsed.

Let's synopsize. basically your only reason for posting this thread was your mistake in thinking that the truck was being shipped on Saturday and the fact that you had not heard back from Pat over the weekend. For all you knew, the truck was on it's way and he was out of town over the weekend.

YOU JUMPED THE GUN!

Again I say that Pat's response to this situation has not been mature or proper. He has childishly threatened you and this Forum. His seeming disregard for the welfare of the chams on the return trip is completely unconscionable. He may be the dishonest person you have made him out to be but all evidence presented so far indicates someone who is simply indignant about being accused of something he strongly believes he did not do. I would be very curious to hear his side of this story. My guess is that it will differ substantially from yours.

Bottom line is that this thread was started prematurely before you had any reason, except a lack of response for a few days, to believe you had been wronged in any way. Your relationship had been very amicable up till then and all evidence posted so far points to the fact that this should have and easily could have been settled between the two of you without any need for this thread.

I don't consider this a victory for the BOI. I consider it a misuse of the BOI.
 
Perhaps if it hasn't already been addressed in the General Business Discussions forum, maybe we should think about some sort of guidelines as to what constitutes sufficient cause to post a 'bad guy' thread here on the BOI. If we could hammer out these guidelines, then I would incorporate them into the general rules of the BOI to help guide people (at least those that read the rules) on what is considered proper and fair to consider as sufficient cause to call someone to the mat on a transaction that appears to have gone sour.
 
John you started the attack so here I am attacking back, and if you are going by the clock and when I posted it says 12:05 am the 14th well daa that is tuesday morning once again you have failed to read between the lines.
and forgot how to count, go back and do your home work if you want to post here.
 
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