Rob Trenor @ RK Reptiles (Inquiry)

[KelliH]

I would be upset in this situation as well. At myself! You should always, ALWAYS double and triple check sexes on animals you purchase, whether it be from Bob Clark, NERD, Rob, whoever. That's one of the first things I do when I receive an animal.

It's an unfortunate situation, and a hard lesson learned, and I think it is totally up to Rob to decide what he is going to do here. Sounds like he has offered some compensation to you, which is more than some would do. Good luck.

 

[E2MacPets]

I'll go against the grain on this one. If Rob stated that they were 0.4 then I don't care how much time passes...if they are not 0.4 then he should stand behind what he said and compensate for his mistake. If you are selling an animal you need to be 100% sure of gender...if you mess up...back it up.
Katie Kennedy

I think under most circumstances had the buyer contacted Rob privately, Rob would have been more than accomodating, as should any reputable seller.


However the buyer came straight to the BOI before allowing Rob time to respond privately, with the intention of "getting his attention" and with the threat of "If it's not resolved, I'll post more here."

Even if Rob did make a mistake, I think he is within rights to refuse to accomodate someone who uses such tactics as this to get what they want.

 

[screamdreams]

KelliH said it best -

I would be upset in this situation as well. At myself! You should always, ALWAYS double and triple check sexes on animals you purchase, whether it be from Bob Clark, NERD, Rob, whoever. That's one of the first things I do when I receive an animal.

This is an invaluable lesson learned, worth well over the $200+ you sent Rob via Paypal. I can almost guarantee you each and every one of us have experienced something very similiar. About 8 years ago, I put close to 4 years into an animal from a big very well known breeder, and come to find out - it was a male. I knew it wasn't intentional - and if I had said something to him about it, he probrably would have tried to do something, no matter how big or small, but I chose not to do so, I chaulked it up as a lesson learned, and I take it upon myself if I've not done so before putting the time in on an acquired animal. I studied the art of probing/popping and wasn't afraid to ask any of the experienced breeders I ran into for a quick tutorial. My vet even mis-sexed 3 of my animals so I always check, double check sexes of newly acquired animals when adding to or starting new projects.

It sucks that it happened, but join the club, and I'm sure it wasn't intentional. I'm certain both sides feel bad, but 9 months is 9 months. If you are 100% serious about your hobby, trust that things like this can and will happen to everyone, and you have to take it upon yourself to make sure all is what it seems within a reasonable amount of time, and always handle the matter privately at first - you may be surprised just how far alot of us will go to keep you as a customer, and to make things right....

 

[dwedeking]

Dustin,

I don't think people came to their conclusion based on your time on this site. There was a discussion of this very issue in the general business section a while back.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38182

Since the thread talks about no one in particular and came to pretty much the same conclusion that is found here.

As to this particular incident, I'd also have a hard time working with somone that threw this to a public forum without giving me the chance to "fix" the issue. The threat implied by your first post was uncalled for, especially since Rob had a history of being willing to take care of your previous issue with no hassle.

 

[NEWReptiles]

I think under most circumstances had the buyer contacted Rob privately, Rob would have been more than accomodating, as should any reputable seller.

I do agree, The initial post lead me to believe that it was alot more serious than it was.

I think you handled the situation perfectly.
9 months is a long time when you deal with that many animals Rob. It may be easier for me to keep pics of animals I sell for a few years as I don't sell anywhere near that many.


Like many others have stated, if sex makes a difference, CHECK THEM RIGHT AWAY. I imagine not every seller would go as far as Rob to make things right, especially after this much time has passed.

 

[necoris]

Thanks everyone.

I guess I did sound pretty harsh at the beginning, but I can't change it. Just got to take it and suck it up. I guess you could call this a form of blackmail but I had no intention of that; I wish I would have seen what was going to happen before posting publicly on this thread. All I wanted to do was get peoples' opinions, not to have it blow up in my face. I'm not the kind of person who would leave a bad feedback for something that happened this long ago. I originally was going to contact Rob and let him know what happened and sell them myself, but I got to thinking and I thought it would be only fair to have them replaced but <font color=red>[**censored**]</font> happens.

Rob, that sounds fair, but I think I'd rather sell them myself. Boy do I look stupid... I also found out that my "female blood" is a male which I have no need for so I will sell it too.

Anyway, I'll take this as a lesson learned and before "going public" I'll contact the seller privately.

Best Regards,
Dustin J. Cox
Diapsid

 

[HerpVenue]

If you bought an animal from Bob Clark, would you probe it?

I definately would. Not because I do or do not trust him. But because mistakes can happen.

Just like Rob I pop AND I probe. Then animals are separated.
Then when I post them for sale I pop and probe again.

Then before they are shipped I pop and probe again.

Yes I am paranoid..... but unlike others who sell thousands of animals I only have several to sell at a time...so I do have time to sex resex and resex and resex again.

I think you should have waited for Rob's answer before posting here.

Also I saw somewhere that you or someone was insinuating people's decisions were based on how long you have been on this forum. I must tell you....whether you have 0 posts or 1,000,000,000 posts......right is right and wrong is wrong. Your number of posts don't matter.....at least not to me.


And Rob.
You are smart
that is a good solution.
Maybe someday when I am a real business I could come up with good smart solutions like that.
Good Job.
But D@mn that is gonna be a total of four shippings.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

DUSTIN, somewhere within the 9

months you must burden the responsibility of ownership.
I dont know the TOS that Rob uses when he makes a sale, but their is a limit to his liability and that should include the proper sex of the snake. If it turns out within a reasonable period of time that the snake in question is not the sex that was ordered, then some form of a swap is in order. But how long do you feel someone should wait before probing to insure that what you received is what you paid for. The answer for me is quite simple. ASAP, not 9 months.

As others have mentioned this is a common occurrence in geckos and especially snakes. You were obligated if to no one else other than to yourself to know what you are buying not based on anything other than your own knowledge upon receipt of the animal. ROB, owes you nothing, and if he has decided out of his good business wisdom to accommodate you, consider yourself very fortunate, as you know others would not be so kind. JERRY

 

[DominicAnthony]

Alright I hate posting here but I can't help myself......First off, Dustin if all these snakes you have are probing a diff. sex than they r supposed to be, are you sure u r probing right??? .....Just wondering... Secondly, I just went and probed all my ball pythons and got what I was hoping I had 0.7 females....I never really thought to probe any of them cuz I have bought from people that I trusted...I have stuff coming in from Morph king and never thought to check.....Third, u pretty much have to bite the bullet on this cuz at the most I expected u to get was a refund or ch '04's and that's what he has offered you...I know you r probably crying though cuz if those were females they would be $250 each and not $60 normal males and those 9 months of feeding and all the rodents didn't go to the cause...Someone asked why Dustin was so mad when the males were nice and he could sell them...Well he's upset cuz he was prepping those females for a male pastel he has coming in and now either has to dish out $500 to replace them or wait another yr. to raise up '04's......Well it just goes to show that mistakes do happen and now I will always double and triple check the sex of my snakes..

 

[screamdreams]

Dustin -

That's funny that you stated your Blood was supposed to be a female but turned out to be a male, because that's the exact animal that I was talking about earlier. I'd like to add to that, I concentrated solely on Bloods for a few years, and found them to be a very rewarding snake to keep and breed, but it's my understanding after speaking with many other experienced keepers that they can be very hard to sex - unless you get a male that likes to "prove himself" whenever handled After keeping them for some time I was confident on sexing them properly, but that is certainly a species that could easily mislead a less experienced keeper/seller. Well best of luck to you, and I hope you know most of us were only giving you our opinions in this matter. The lesson learned is invaluable, "trust me"
Take care!!

 

[necoris]

I know I should just drop it, but...

The reason why I probed all of my snakes is because I found a dried up sperm plug in a females enclosure. I found this awkward because I've never introduced a male to her since I've had her. I then tried to pop a sperm plug out of "her" and I did; two of them actually. And when I probed both of them some, I did get a sperm plug on the end of the probe. I am uncertain about the blood python, but I have been researching and keeping ball pythons for a year and am certain that these are males. They also stopped eating recently which I also found odd. The original male purchased from Rob, I call him "Caesar," acts the same way. As a matter of fact, I want to show you all the male I purchased from Rob. I'm oh so happy that I did! Everyone is envious of him... And Dominic, you can't be more right. All the time and effort I put into them. Well you know what? I think it was worth it. Even though they are males, I love them just as much.

Jennifer held him while she snapped a picture; here he is!

Thanks everyone.

Regards,
Dustin J. Cox
Diapsid

 

[SPJ]

Here's my take and I'll use today as an example.

I just got some childrens pythons delivered today.
I ordered all females.
I probed and popped them immediately after looking them over.
One was a male. Not only did he probe male but he stuck out both hemis as he relieved himself all over me.
I have since contacted the seller explaining that the one of the females is a male and that I did not order or have any use for a male.
Since I emailed him within a few hours of receiving them I feel I am entitled have the snake swapped for a female. He agreed to swap it for a female.
If I waited 9 months to sex them and then emailed him about it, I would expect to get the "tough luck" answer (which would be justified)
Personally, I think your stuck with them not only because of how long you waited but also because you never gave Rob a chance to work with you.

 

[ajc]

Dustin,

This happened to me a couple of years ago with another dealer. I paid $275 for a standout female that turned out (8 weeks later) to be a male. And, of course, the dealer refused to do anything about it and since he was a BOI regular, the herd backed him up. I learned three lessons that day.

1. ALWAYS sex an animal upon arrival.

2. Never buy from that guy again

3. Bringing it up on the BOI gets you nowhere unless you carry more clout than the guy in the wrong.


Now I'm just going to put my two cents in.

Before I start, I want to say that I've now (as of today) bought from you and I've also bought from Rob (a juvenile chondro about a year ago who is doing superb). I like both of you guys and have no issues with either of you.

Here's what I think...

1. Unless his terms section has a provision in it that says all transactions complete after X number of days, I'd say Rob should send you two females in exchange for the two males...provided you can prove that those two males are in fact two of the ones you got from him as females. This is not necessarily because he HAS to, but because it's the right thing to do to keep a customer happy. Considering these are most likely farmed (CH) baby balls we're talking about (meaning they probably cost him about $7 each) I don't think this is unreasonable. Had they been something of limited availability that he produced, it might be a different story.

2. The 9 month thing is no excuse. These animals did not sprout hemipenes overnight. If they're males now, they were males when you bought them. The passing of nine months doesn't change the fact that Rob made a mistake.

3. It's not Rob's fault that you waited 9 months to sex them. That's on you. That said, he shouldn't necessarily owe you two females of the same size.

4. Rob, if you haven't already, you should put something in your terms section to prevent situations like this from coming back to bite you later.

Because of things like this happening and because I don't produce enough animals to always be able to provide a replacement of the correct sex, I've actually got a provision in the terms section of my website. This serves as a reminder to the buyer that they should always sex animals (or have the animals sexed) upon arrival. Here it is verbatim...

Sex When an animal is sold as sexed, I offer a 100% guarantee to that effect. I do, however expect for you to double check the sex of the animal and to notify me within 48 hours if it appears to be the wrong sex. If I have not heard from you within 48 hours, I will consider our transaction complete.

 

[reptnotics]

9 months later

First I would like to say that you should have checked the animals the minute you got them no matter the who they are. To come nine months later and say you probed them now and they are males I think is a little to late. I would like to know when did you learn to probe animals? I am not saying you are wrong but many people make mistake and probe wrong on animals and think they are males because they broke the insides. If you don’t think it happens I will go to back in the days for any one that has been a old school in this industry! One time long ago a lot of real diamond pythons came in the country and everyone was probing them as males because they broke the insides of the animals. This was done by what you would call the best in the industry! So it can happen! I am not saying you did it but it can happen. As for Rob at rkreptiles I have purchased many animals from him and sold just as many! He has a family just like most of us and makes his living by selling reptiles. I can say Rob has been here longer than many people give him credit for! I can remember having tables right next to his in 1998! I think you should have waited at least a day for him to respond to you so you guys could talk on the phone. The next thing is I do think that sometimes things get out of hand here on faunaclassifieds.com! Sometime you will see postings (a.k.a. kids) posting some crap about a person and saying his stuff is garbage and so on! But what really happened is the kid wanted to trade his leopard gecko trio for your ALBINO BALL! Anyone who has sold reptiles for sometime now has seen this before. This a free site that give you a chance to learn about scams and rip offs before they happen to you! If this was here when REPTILESONLINE.COM and that was the only real selling site on the internet. You are always going to have those few people that will screw things up! As for sticking up for yourself on this site due what you want to due. Post what you want! What I mean if you think its worth your time or if it’s a lie about you STAND UP!

RULES TO INTERNET SALES:
1. IF YOU SELL A ANIMALS PRINT ALL E-MAILS WITH THE CUSTOMER OR SAVE ON A DISK FOR BACK UP IN CASE SOMETHING HAPPENS!

2. BACK ALL ANIMALS YOU SELL WITH A PICTURE OF IT THAT YOU KEEP ON RECORD FOR YOUR RECORDS.

3. ALWAYS GIVE YOUR CUSTOMER A RECITE FOR HIS PURCHASE SO HE HAS PROOF YOU MADE A DEAL WITH YOU! I GIVE 2 RECITES ONE ON MY COMPUTER AND ONE I WRITE BY HAND.


THERE ARE MORE BUT YOU GET THE IDEA IF ANYONE WOULD LIKE TO ADD ON TO THIS PLEASE DUE BECAUSE I AM ALWAYS OPEN TO NEW IDEAS! THANKS FOR READING THIS AND HAVE A NICE DAY! THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I POSTED ON THIS SITE BUT WONT BE MY LAST.

REPTNOTICS

“NO DAY IS LIKE YESTERDAY”

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Jason

Great post but, according to the rules of this forum, you have to include your full name on every post. the easiest way to do it is to enter it into the signature on your profile.

 

[Tom C]

Time is Money.

I dont know either of these two men, so i feel this opinion is as un-biased as it can get.

This could swing both ways depending on who you purchased the snakes from.In this business a company reaches a status which can allow them to charge more(not that Rob did), because the buyer feels he is purchasing an animal with great confidence that the seller will back the product 100%.

Why should a person have to take an animal to the vet( its no guarantee that they will sex correctly) to make sure that the reptile they have purchased from a reliable breeder/seller is actually sexed correctly??Isnt that one of the main bonuses for purchasing from a well known reliable breeder??

I dont mind spending the extra cash ordering from an established well known breeder, but I sure as hell better get what I paid for, thats the main reason i went w/ them instead of some no namer on a classified.Purchasing from no namer on a classified is a gamble, especially if you dont know how to correctly sex a snake.
However, with Rob being in this business as long as he has, i feel that he is fully responsible for these two females regardless of the duration.

Time is Money, he is 9 months behind on his breeding projects w/ these two snakes, I think he is fully entitled to a refund or replacement of two females to fit the current price of such females @ this time.

Tom C

 

[E2MacPets]

Tom, I don't think anyone is arguing that if Rob made a mistake that as someone with his reputation he should make it right.

However we have two points to consider:

Rob asserts that he and another individual sexed these animals before shipping.

Dustin attempted to force Rob's hand by posting here on the BOI before allowing Rob the opportunity to make things right privately.



Yes, time is money. But, Dustin made a poor business decision by not verifying the sex of animals that he was depending on, regardless of who he purchased from.

The burden is on Dustin to provide proof, and I think it would be fully understandable given the way Dustin handled the situation if Rob was less than accomodating. Rob should be commended for handling the situation with restraint and respect.

 

[HerpVenue]

that they can be very hard to sex - unless you get a male that likes to "prove himself" whenever handled After keeping them for some time I was confident on sexing them properly, but that is certainly a species that could easily mislead a less experienced keeper/seller.

Good post.
I once bought a PROVEN pair of bloods.
I even got pictures sent to me of the female on her eggs and everything.
Well a bit later I had to sell them......or trade them.. I forgot which.
But the whole month before they went away they were mating.
Also I sexed them when they first got to me.

Anyway the pooint is after seeing pictures of the female on her eggs....
After sexing them myself.
After seeing them in "action"
I KNEW which one was male and which one was female.

But once they were sold or traded........
The person they went to told me that I had it backwards.
He said the male was really a female and the female was really a male............HUH?!?!?!?!

1. the guy who sold it to me sexed them.
2. I had pictures of the female on the eggs.
3. I sexed them myself.
4. I saw them in "action"
and oh yeah....forgot to mention.
5. The male always showed me his "manliness" when being handled. As if to say "I got two and you only have one."

Anyway I just said okay and apologized and he was stillhappy because he got a pair.

I do not know if I was wrong for apologizing.....
I just figured he would figure out which is what when the "male" started laying eggs.


okay....what was my point?


oh yeah mistakes happen (sometimes on the consumers end)

 

[Sasheena]

My first big purchase was three colubrids. I was a rank newbie, and the seller knew that. The babies sure LOOKED like they were the proper gender ratio... tapering tails on the female, manly tails on the males.

IF the seller had been misled and sold me the wrong ratio, my FIRST response would have been to email him, asking for a response. If I didn't get one within a week (because I KNOW not everyone lives on the internet like I do), I would have called him. (more expensive, but we both live in this century and DO own telephones). I would NEVER have gone to the BOI without at LEAST waiting to see what he had to say. ESPECIALLY if he had already worked out a previous problem.

Luckily the snakes I first bought met expectations.

 

[jmartin104]

Tom,

To date, I have been ripped off by one small nobody at a show - she actually became my best breeder though. I only lost time. The other time I was ripped off/slighted was by one of the Big 5. I paid extra and I paid a huge fee - in the thousands - for a male and two adult females. Only one female and the male were delivered. I mentioned the other adult female and was quickly brushed aside. To boot, the female was a problem feeder. I thought for sure this person would stand by their word. Nope.

As for Rob, I have done several deals with him in the past. He goes out of his way to make sure that everyone is happy with the deal. That's his character. He will work with you.

As for the purchaser. Time is money, I agree. But how long do you wait to claim foul? I mean, I bought a female 100% het albino adult 3 years ago that has yet to produce for me. She arrived smaller than specified (still large enough to breed) and is a problem feeder. If and when she throws eggs who's to say I haven't been producing eggs from her? But if this guy can't sex the females properly, how does that become the seller's fault? Vets?? I teach my local vets about my snakes. The only reason I go to them is to legally get my meds. Don't get me wrong there are some great vets that specialize in reptiles but they are in the minority.

Just my .02