sandfire dragon ranch

[puppytoes72]

also they didnt return my other calls,i had to keep calling them.

 

[varnyard]

also they didnt return my other calls,i had to keep calling them.

Give me his #, if what you say is true, I will be the first to say so. But this does not sound like Kevin Dunn I know.

 

[puppytoes72]

jojo came from sandfire via petco.what difference does this make anyways?kevin says that ALL beardies have it!they believe this and they are still breeding and selling.thats discusting

 

[puppytoes72]

its right on the website

 

[varnyard]

jojo came from sandfire via petco.what difference does this make anyways?kevin says that ALL beardies have it!they believe this and they are still breeding and selling.thats discusting

It makes a big difference, a breeder cannot control how a wholesaler or retailer cares for the animals after they get them.

You said eairler in the other thread that:

well i just got off the phone with sandfire.i spoke to kevin,their specialist.he basically said`that all beardies have the virus in them and it is only brought out by stress or poor husbandry!!!

Did you do the reasearch before you made these threads to see if what he was telling you was true?

 

[puppytoes72]

ummmm,yes,if you considering speaking to the actual EXPERTS,the ppl that are doing the studies!there are NEGATIVE dragons.are you taking his side because you are a breeder yourself and you dont want to do testing?

 

[varnyard]

ummmm,yes,if you considering speaking to the actual EXPERTS,the ppl that are doing the studies!there are NEGATIVE dragons.are you taking his side because you are a breeder yourself and you dont want to do testing?

Michele, I am a breeder, but not of beardies. I am a tegu breeder, I will also add that tegus do not carry this virus. However, I do know Kevin and respect him very highly.

Now when you say (ummmm,yes) are you admitting that almost all beardies have this and that it is very wide spread?

I also talked to Kevin, he will be addressing this thread.

 

[dden]

I spoke with Michelle about 1 1/2 hours ago and alot of what has been posted was taken out of context. I told her that it is my understanding that a dragon can test negative for Adenovirus several times only to test positive the next time. I compared it to coccidia in the way that coccidia can be evident in a dragon, but not show up in an exam unless it is being shed at that time (I'm not a vet so forgive me if my terms are incorrect)...I also told her that we produced over 9,000 bearded dragons last year and that there is no way we could test everything before it is shipped. In addition to that, we purchase another few thousand dragons from breeders throughout the US for distribution to a couple of major pet store chains. If a dragon appears to be sick, we don't ship it...as sad as it sounds, the dragon is euthanized. Michelle purchased her dragon 6 months ago from Petco and, by her statemants, the dragon appears healthy. A lot of things could have happened in six months to expose that dragon to Adenovirus. I did not blame anything on her husbandry. I mearly stated that, if a dragon has Adenovirus it can still test negative and then test positive at a later date, and that it is my belief that stress is a major factor in whether or not a dragon is affected by many various types of sickness, including Adenovirus. I have spoken to vets who feel the same way...
Lets face it: All of the Bearded Dragons in captivity today are decendants of a very small number of animals. That means they all share the same ancestors...it is very likely that all bearded dragons have been exposed to Adenovirus, at some point, long before we even knew what it was. Am I saying that every bearded dragon in the country has Adenovirus? No. I am saying that, just because a dragon has a negative test on one day, that does not mean it will not test positive on another day.

 

[dden]

I spoke with Michelle about 1 1/2 hours ago and alot of what has been posted was taken out of context. I told her that it is my understanding that a dragon can test negative for Adenovirus several times only to test positive the next time. I compared it to coccidia in the way that coccidia can be evident in a dragon, but not show up in an exam unless it is being shed at that time (I'm not a vet so forgive me if my terms are incorrect)...I also told her that we produced over 9,000 bearded dragons last year and that there is no way we could test everything before it is shipped. In addition to that, we purchase another few thousand dragons from breeders throughout the US for distribution to a couple of major pet store chains. If a dragon appears to be sick, we don't ship it...as sad as it sounds, the dragon is euthanized. Michelle purchased her dragon 6 months ago from Petco and, by her statemants, the dragon appears healthy. A lot of things could have happened in six months to expose that dragon to Adenovirus. I did not blame anything on her husbandry. I mearly stated that, if a dragon has Adenovirus it can still test negative and then test positive at a later date, and that it is my belief that stress is a major factor in whether or not a dragon is affected by many various types of sickness, including Adenovirus. I have spoken to vets who feel the same way...
Lets face it: All of the Bearded Dragons in captivity today are decendants of a very small number of animals. That means they all share the same ancestors...it is very likely that all bearded dragons have been exposed to Adenovirus, at some point, long before we even knew what it was. Am I saying that every bearded dragon in the country has Adenovirus? No. I am saying that, just because a dragon has a negative test on one day, that does not mean it will not test positive on another day.

 

[puppytoes72]

i was sayin"ummm,yes" to your question if i had done research before posting this thread.hours every night to be exact.you say that "most"beardies have it,and yeah its really looking that way,BUT kevin says"ALL beardies have it".i do not believe this.there are many breeders that have tested multiple times and have come out with negatives.ya know,im not here to debate,im just here to notify the public that sandfire has adeno,since they arent taking it upon themselves to notify ppl on their website.ive stated the facts here and what ppl choose to do with this info is their choice.either support the breeders that care enough to test,or support the breeders that dont give a damn .thats all i have to say about it.

 

[varnyard]

Thank you Kevin for coming here and shedding some light on this. I do not breed beardies and did not know about this problem with them.

Michele, I do feel bad for your beardie as well. I wish you the best with it.

 

[puppytoes72]

i agree with you that a beardie should be tested more than once to be sure its negative,i never denied that.but you said 5-6x can come up negative and then the next one can be positive.most ppl that are testing are using both types of tests,fecal and pcr.if both of these tests are negative then its safe to say you have a negative beardie.of course sandfire might not want to test 9000 beardies but cant you start testing the breeders?but as you say"all" beardies have the virus so why not post that on the website?just notify the potential buyers and let them make the choice,thats all im trying to do.

 

[varnyard]

Michele, like Kevin said: All of the Bearded Dragons in captivity today are decendants of a very small number of animals.

With this being the case I would tend to think this virus would be in them all. These are some of the bad things about having a small gene pool for breeding. It tends to make animals less strong against viruses like these.

 

[puppytoes72]

kevin,i agree with you that a beardie should be tested more than once to be sure its negative,i never denied that.but you said 5-6x can come up negative and then the next one can be positive.most ppl that are testing are using both types of tests,fecal and pcr.if both of these tests are negative then its safe to say you have a negative beardie.of course sandfire might not want to test 9000 beardies but cant you start testing the breeders?but as you say"all" beardies have the virus so why not post that on the website?just notify the potential buyers and let them make the choice,thats all im trying to do.

 

[varnyard]

Michele, like Kevin said: All of the Bearded Dragons in captivity today are decendants of a very small number of animals.

With this being the case I would tend to think this virus would be in them all. These are some of the bad things about having a small gene pool for breeding. It tends to make animals less strong against viruses like these.

 

[boybronco]

Not to be negative here but you really don't have any PROOF that the dragon even came from Sandfire. You have a petco employee who is making minimum wage tell you that s/he could not find any paperwork from their other supplier? I hardly consider this to make your claim factual. Regardless I'm sorry for your beardie, I dont have any experiance with beardies or even knwo what Adenovirus is but thought that I'd comment about the source of the dragon.

Lastly I'd like to say that I'm dealing with Kevin in a current transaction and he's been very helpful and knowledgeable and I'd trust his judgement.

Bill Bowers

 

[puppytoes72]

i saw the paperwork myself and the manager said there wasnt a shipment for quite awhile prior to that.when i spoke to kevein he seemed pretty sure jojo came from there too.anything else??

 

[whiskersmom]

I don't think puppytoes is saying she knows without a doubt that the Adeno in her dragon came from Sandfire, correct me if I'm wrong Michele, I just think that she believes (like alot of us do) that if there is a chance that her dragon came to Petco with the virus, they need to know. To me, she did the company a service by letting then know, giving them the opportunity to test their breeders.

 

[puppytoes72]

I don't think puppytoes is saying she knows without a doubt that the Adeno in her dragon came from Sandfire, correct me if I'm wrong Michele, I just think that she believes (like alot of us do) that if there is a chance that her dragon came to Petco with the virus, they need to know. To me, she did the company a service by letting then know, giving them the opportunity to test their breeders.

actually im almost 100%sure she came from sandfire,i saw the paperwork myself and the manager said there were no shipments for quite awhile prior to that and when i spoke to kevin he didnt deny that she came from there.my main reason for posting this was to let ppl know and warn them to ask questions b4 buying.and my main reason for calling sandfire was to let them know if they didnt know already.i was very surprised my their nonchalant attitude about the virus though like its no big deal,they are not going to test and they are going to continue breedeing and selling.they should put a statement on their website.thanks whiskersmom

 

[varnyard]

actually im almost 100%sure she came from sandfire,i saw the paperwork myself and the manager said there were no shipments for quite awhile prior to that and when i spoke to kevin he didnt deny that she came from there.my main reason for posting this was to let ppl know and warn them to ask questions b4 buying.and my main reason for calling sandfire was to let them know if they didnt know already.i was very surprised my their nonchalant attitude about the virus though like its no big deal,they are not going to test and they are going to continue breedeing and selling.they should put a statement on their website.thanks whiskersmom

But you have had your beardie for six months, correct? Also you told Kevin your beardie seems healthy.

Adenovirus in Reptiles

Per Juergen Schumacher, DVM, author of Viral Diseases, in Mader's Reptile Medicine & Surgery:

"Adenovirus has been reported in a bearded dragon (Pogona barbatus), Rankin's dragons (Pogona henrylawsonii), and a Savannah monitor (Varanus exanthematicus). The actual route of transmission was not known, but suspected to be direct (fecal-oral).
The bearded dragon exhibited recurring loss of appetite before dying. The Rankin's died soon after exhibiting limb paresis, loss of appetite, and lethargy. The monitor died suddenly with no prior signs of illness.'

'The post mortems found no gross abnormalities in the monitor and bearded; in the Rankin's, the lungs were congested and liver swollen and pale. Microscopic exam found multiple spots of necrotic tissue in the livers of all three species. Eosinophilic intranuclear bodies were found in the bearded's liver cells (hepatocytes). Basophilic inclusion bodies were found in the monitor's and Rankin's, and inclusion bodies were also found in the endothelial cells of the monitor. EM exam the viral particles were found in all the animals examined.

'Diagnosis is made post mortem.

'There is no treatment for the adenovirus; antimicrobials can be given for secondary bacterial infections."

In the following section, under general guidelines for the collection and handling of specimens, Dr. Schumacher goes on to say:

"In living reptiles, biopsies of skin, liver, oral mucosa, etc., can be collected and stored in formalin for histologic and electron microscopy exam. For direct viral detection, samples of urine, saliva or vesicular fluid (as from cysts or blisters) can be processed for negative staining EM. If the virus particles are present in sufficient number, these methods will work."

There have been reports of adenovirus in some bearded dragon breeders' collections. There has also recently been some discussion on the Pogona email list, with some members concerned about hatchlings who thrash and flail about when put in water for a bath or soak. Neurologic signs (loss of coordination, spasms, tremors, intention tremors, falling down, etc.) are generally not signs of adenovirus infection. In the lizards behaving this way in the bath, it is most likely that they are simply freaked out by the water. This is a common occurrence when green iguanas are introduced to baths for the first time, and it may take weeks or months for them to be completely comfortable in a bath. In the case of desert lizards such as bearded dragons, such a fear-related response is understandable. For information on bathing and how to help lizards acclimate, see the Bathing and Swimming - Not Just a Bathroom Activity article.

The most common cause of neuromotor problems in young bearded dragons can be caused by feeding them prey that is too large. For more information, see the following excerpt from the Feeding section in my Dragons Down Under: Inland Bearded Dragons article:

You must feed very small prey to baby bearded dragons. While the rule-of-thumb for feeding lizards says that it is generally safe to feed prey that is 2/3 the size of the lizard's head, this is not advisable with baby beardeds (0-4 months). When fed prey that is too large for them, serious physical problems often result: partial paralysis, seizures, ataxia (loss of motor control), inability to self-feed, gut impaction, even death. Start with feeding pin-head crickets and tiny, freshly molted worms, moving only slowly and gradually to larger sizes, phasing in day-old pinks when they are ready for them. Despite the fact that most stores sell animals that need them, most don't sell pin-heads, so you will have to order them directly from a cricket breeder; you can order meal worms from them at the same time.

Gut impactions, as from retained insect chitin, can cause loss of appetite, rapid weight loss, dehydration, lethargy, and ambulatory problems as the gut tries to move the mass along, food cannot be digested, the gut becomes infected and gassy from the food rotting, and pain and cramping set in. Loss of appetite, lethargy, dehydration are also the most common signs of a wide range of bacterial, parasitic, fungal, mycoplasmal, and viral illnesses. All avenues should be explored, and in the case of young bearded dragons (most of the survivors of which outgrow the neuromotor symptoms as they get older), great care must be taken when selecting the insects being fed out, making sure to feed small, newly molted ones.

Note that some viruses, such as the boid inclusion body disease, cause ataxia and stargazing, two neuromotor signs.

I also found this:

Detection and Analysis of Six Lizard Adenoviruses by the
Department of Small Animal Clinical Sciences,1 Department of Pathobiology, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Florida, Gainesville, Florida,4 Veterinary Medical Research Institute, Hungarian Academy of Sciences, Budapest, Hungary,2 Department of Pathology, Center for Reproduction of Endangered Species, Zoological Society of San Diego, San Diego, California,3 Northwest ZooPath, Monroe, Washington5

Received 29 May 2004/ Accepted 9 July 2004

A consensus nested-PCR method was designed for investigation of the DNA polymerase gene of adenoviruses. Gene fragments were amplified and sequenced from six novel adenoviruses from seven lizard species, including four species from which adenoviruses had not previously been reported. Host species included Gila monster, leopard gecko, fat-tail gecko, blue-tongued skink, Tokay gecko, bearded dragon, and mountain chameleon. This is the first sequence information from lizard adenoviruses. Phylogenetic analysis indicated that these viruses belong to the genus Atadenovirus, supporting the reptilian origin of atadenoviruses. This PCR method may be useful for obtaining templates for initial sequencing of novel adenoviruses.