Info Seeking Advice on Dan Scolardo

[Uroboros]

I guess thats what these things are always about... Making wise decisions..

Yep. I have a favorite saying: "You cannot teach discression." It pretty much means that discression must be learned.

You can teach knowlege. You can't teach wisdom, that's one of those things you have to learn.

FORTUNATELY, the more painful the lesson, the easier it is to learn from.

Everyone is right with the "You don't have a leg to stand on here" statements, unfortunately. I don't like scolaro at all and will try to dissuade anyone from buying whenever I can.

Kind of funny. If scolaro hadn't been banned, this thread would be 100 pages long now with arguments going back and forth and scolaro would have turned out to be right. I'm so glad that's not the case.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

I am curious to know

if Karl Jordan is the actual person who purchased the Caiman or is this person representing someone else who was the actual buyer....

Since you are posting emails from Dan, how about any emails from you or whom ever you are representing when the Caiman first arrived in your possession ! I would like to see any tranmission on that request !


The reason why I asked is because, I personally contacted Dan to find that answer from him, and here is what he provided me with:

>>>>>>>In a message dated 6/16/2009 11:24:30 A..M. Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes:
>>>>>>>Hi there, I go there this morning she is doing good. Looking great. A little ball of Im gonna bite your head off XD type thing. I bet she is overly cranky from the trip. I got her in a holding tank right now till she gets adjusted a little, ya know gets over that jet lag lol. I will send some photos when I get her in her new enclosure tomorrow. =)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Stephanie Jordan
>>>>>>>>Chicks With Chicks,

Apparently the buyer was satisfied enough to send Dan an email acknowledging that the delivery obligation was fulfilled... I can safely assume that no one twisted Stehpanie Jordan from sending Dan this disclosed email, unless Dan has made this up ! Would appreciate some reply.

 

[rosebud945]

If the caiman does not eat after 4 days, yes there could be a problem, but that was NOT nor should it ever be as part of a sale.. It would be fool hardy to think that the animal is going to eat when you want it to.... I dont know how long it may take Caimans to acclimate themselves to new soundingness before they start eating, but to hold Dan respsponsible for that is ridiculous !

I disagree with this statement to some degree. A healthy lizard should be able to go without eating for 4 days and more, so if a healthy lizard was shipped and the buyer's husbandry is good, then the lizard would still be alive. If the seller sent an unhealthy lizard that died after four days in spite of good husbandry on the part of the buyer, then the seller IS at fault. The trouble is that we can't know the condition of the animal when it arrived if the buyer didn't think to take pics.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

Ridiculous!

We dont know why the animal died ! Whether it could have or should have eaten may have had no bearing on the death of the animal unless it could be determined what the cause of death was due from. Incidentally, that could also include stress.....

But that is not what is at issue here.. The animal arrived alive, and apparently from the email that was sent to Dan, the consignee was happy enough when it was received... Dans obligation ended there as his TOS was for live delivery ONLY.. It did not include any marriage to the buyer for any length of time beyond that... This is quite common in this business... The risk factor now puts the obligation on whoever is the caretaker....

So please dont give me this nonsense about a healthy lizards, etc... the animal died 4 days later ! It happens, its unfortunate, but its their loss.. No one twisted this person arm to buy from Dan.

 

[Uroboros]

The animal arrived alive, and apparently from the email that was sent to Dan, the consignee was happy enough when it was received... Dans obligation ended there as his TOS was for live delivery ONLY.. It did not include any marriage to the buyer for any length of time beyond that... This is quite common in this business... The risk factor now puts the obligation on whoever is the caretaker....

People that sell animals with a "Live Arrival" only guarantee won't ever get my business. I, personally, have not seen that many only offer "until you open the package to see it living" guarantee. There's plenty of times that a snake or reptile can have a RI and not show any signs or symptoms of it until it is stressed, like living in a box overnight.

So, the animal arrived alive. Sweet. So, it's sick as hell, or getting there. It's got mites and ticks and is completely WC right off the boat, but it arrived alive, TOS complete, have a nice day, good bye.

It's not a marriage, Jerry, you are correct. But there is a relationship. If any seller wants to sell more than one thing to me, there will be some relationship, period. If any seller wants to sell to me at all, then there will be at least a one week health guarantee. You and I both know that an RI in a snake (if it got it after it arrived) won't show up in 7 days, but it just might if it had it already.

I'll also pay pretty close attention to seller's TOS. If it's a "it arrived alive, kthxbai" it's also a no-go, kthxbai. Unfortunately, Stephanie/Karl should have read more carefully, that sucks.

And, just because I can be an ass sometimes, does posting emails from scolaro count as posting third party quotes or information?

 

[rosebud945]

So please dont give me this nonsense about a healthy lizards, etc... the animal died 4 days later ! It happens, its unfortunate, but its their loss.. No one twisted this person arm to buy from Dan.

Yeah, unfortunately, ethical responsibility and legal responsibility can be two very different things. Unfortunately, no one did twist the naive buyer's arm, but if a seller takes advantage of that naivety, then he is a bad seller, IMO, whether the buyer has legal recourse or not.

I am with Erik. I won't buy from a seller that does not guarantee an animal's health, but I had to learn that the hard way. Fortunately, that lesson didn't cost me as much as it did this OP.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

I hate to say it, but Dan did no wrong on this one.
You paid for a caimen, it was shipped to you and arrived alive. I have no doubt he probably has the permits he's supposed to have. Caimen are not native to florida, so he's not "wild catching" them, so that doesn't apply to your sale. Paypal is normally interested only in whether you recieved the item, which you did.

The fact is, you bought an animal, recieved an animal, and it died 4 DAYS later. Since there is no health guarentee on caimens in the ad, or Dan's TOS, it's too bad for you, but you're not entitled to any refunds.

I don't like Dan, and don't like a lot of the things he's done, or posted, but in this sale, I don't see what your gripe is. If you didn't like the caimen, or it arrived unhealthy looking, then you should have returned it, or sent a complaint immediately.

Yep. Ill stand for what Theresa says here too, and that i agree. Which... is unfortunate, but i wont support something that is not true.

It sucks, but, you may just have to take it as a lesson learned and remember to check for the seller on the BOI here, and elsewhere.

 

[wes smith]

And, just because I can be an ass sometimes, does posting emails from scolaro count as posting third party quotes or information?

How about starting a BOI thread under false pretences (false name).....
The OP has yet to acknowledge who he/she really is. The name on the profile says Reeve, the posts are signed Karl and now an e-mail from "Stephanie", all using the same last name "Jordan". If the OP isn't using their real name, this thread can be locked and all their posts deleted (TOS of the BOI).
I don't want to come off as defending Scolaro, but the OP has been a member here since May 2008. Dan was only banned a few months ago (March 9 was his last post), so I find it hard to believe the OP has not come across a Scolaro thread since May 2008. David (DAND) made a VERY valid point on post #15, if the OP did read any of Dan's threads and still bought from him....

 

[NeoReptiliac]

Ok a question was asked about who I am since I got my name brought up to give someone something to talk about. I thought this thread was over once I was told how to handle the problem with him shipping to me illegally. Which is originally what the thread was about. I lost all hope of him refunding any money a long time ago to make up for what he did wrong in sending me an ill animal. But just cause it was brought up I will infact answer anything you have ask about my name.

Ok for 1 this animal was a gift. My wife was the person who it was a gift for. Its true that the caiman was partly both of ours since we share responsibility for every animal we have. Her name is Stephanie. She was the one keeping email contact with him but I was the one buying the caiman. So after me and her looking over lots of emails with dan (they were sent back and forth on her email account naturally) I decided to get some advise on the matter from this site.

No I dont read this site's threads much. I usually stick to the classifieds when I do happen to read anything from the site. I had heard a little here and there from various people about Dan. So I did know of his name. But I didnt know enough about him to feel worried. We discussed him behaving like a responsible business man prior to me and my wife buying the caiman. She found him talked to him and I just eaves dropped and gave my opinion to her on the matter.

I figured none of these details were important as it didnt change anything that happened. My wife didnt ask me to come make this thread either. She said to him she would write a good guy thread for him if everything turned out alright cause she is soft hearted and thought despite what I was told once or twice from some reptile keeping friends about him being a smart ass (which is all I was told) that she would give him a chance to prove someone that talked gossip to me wrong. Well its safe to say she was disappointed in the end with the way he behaved towards her once she realized he ripped us off.

She really had her heart set on getting this caiman for 2 major reasons. She loves them for one. Ever since she was 12 she told me she wanted one. We went this year to visit one of her past school friends who moved before school was over to Florida. Her friend works now at the St. Augustine Alligator Farm and so we spent a week there getting to know more about these reptiles first hand. After that she just couldnt wait any more and begged me to buy her one when we got home. So with the knowledge she learned from her friend in Florida we sat up 2 enclosures. A temporary one for while its small and then a large one for when its an adult.
The other reason why she wanted this caiman was for first hand experience in keeping something of the croc family, learning what all to notice behavioral wise and all cause she is pursuing her degrees in Vet care for exotics this fall.

Oh one last thing I almost forgot. My name is Karl Reeve Jordan. I forgot when I made this account I used Reeve instead of Karl cause I hate the name Karl. I hardly use it even in real life. Friends and family all call me by it. But when I was making this thread I noticed it was posted as Reeve so I made sure to add Karl in my post since the rules of the TOS say so. I was not trying to disillusion anyone I was acctually trying to clear things up.

Now if anyone has any more questions please PM them to me. I think this matter was solved a while back 2 or 3 pages ago. Anything now is just repeating what everyone knows over and over again. Which is the fact that a simple mistake of assuming someone would be a respectable business man and not doing any research on the seller - could get you ripped off.

I've done everything that should be done. FedEx has been contacted (days ago) and I was told that the hubs in his location will be alerted of him and his membership on FedEx will be terminated for him shipping against FedEx's rules and regulations. As well as contacted the Florida FWC where an investigation on Dan is being done now.
Thats enough for me to feel satisfied in the fact that I might possibly been able to help someone else not make the mistakes me and my wife did with buying from Dan in the future.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

NeoReptilac

So now you have shot your load. Made all your necessary notifications and you can sit back and congratulate yourself for loosing $ 175.00.. Personally, I feel you are at fault. But thats just my opinion and its not based on the fact that the purchase came from Dan.. I think you or your wife incriminated yourself with the email that you sent Dan..

Once things began to sour, the very things that were not important when you received the Caiman now have become your focal point for some kind of retribution... PayPal, Fish & Wildlife, FedEx, and whoever else you can conjure up... I think had you handled it a bit more diplomatically, you probably would have received a more favorable response from Dan.. I am only guessing here, but no animal should die in 4 days..

I understand that, but the answer is not the approach you seem to feel is your moral obligation... to tell the world now that Dan should not have shipped the Caiman, that live delivery should continue to extend for an unknown period of time, that the permits were not there, etc. , when in fact the purchase probably should never have been made in the first place....

and when you actually received the Caiman, you seemed satisfied enough to email Dan and tell him so..... Meanwhile you did not argue the point that the email that I posted from your wife was bogus, when in fact it was most definitely sent the day she received the box !

 

[Wolfy-hound]

Actually it was pointed out earlier in the thread that it is NOT illegilt o ship caimens in the method described by you. FedEx does not prohibit shipping caimens specifically, as long as you are cerified to ship. Shipping caimens out of state from florida is not illegil either, as I understand the laws. Keeping and selling caimens in Florida is not illegil as long as you have the proper permits.

So what exactly is it that was illegil? I missed something somewhere.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Actually it was pointed out earlier in the thread that it is NOT illegilt o ship caimens in the method described by you. FedEx does not prohibit shipping caimens specifically, as long as you are cerified to ship. Shipping caimens out of state from florida is not illegil either, as I understand the laws. Keeping and selling caimens in Florida is not illegil as long as you have the proper permits.

So what exactly is it that was illegil? I missed something somewhere.

Lack of labeling on an interstate shipment is a Lacey Act violation.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

The waiver from Fedex to ship reptiles states that the boxes must be properly labelled.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

FedEx or UPS and we use both

depending on how the boxes are handled and whom they are picked up by make a big difference when labeling comes into play.. Most of the boxes that we use say "perishable" and we do have labels that say "living materials" but we never describe reptiles or amphibians. Our experience basically shows a callousness when transporting these boxes.... Whereas the above labels seem to work without any difficulty reaching its destination ALIVE !

 

[NeoReptiliac]

Lack of labeling on an interstate shipment is a Lacey Act violation.

This is very true. I spoke to FedEx myself and they are handling it the way it should be handled. If he did nothing wrong then there wouldn't be a problem. But he did handle it wrong so there is a problem. I admit I was dumb in not making sure everything was perfectly clear but I don't see what the problem is with the email my wife sent him the day she got the caiman saying that she got it and that it was alive and looking fine. Dan himself even said "everything appeared to be well with the caiman" Appear is the key word there. He likely knew something was wrong with it. There is no telling how long it was not eating or ill in his care before he sent it to us.

But the fact of the matter is. Everything is taken care of. He is being investigated, FedEx is taking measures to insure he doesnt ship anything like this again with out letting them know. They told me that he did not sign any waver and that he did not even acknowledge that what was in the box was a live animal or perishable at all.

 

[Southern Wolf]

Actually it was pointed out earlier in the thread that it is NOT illegilt o ship caimens in the method described by you. FedEx does not prohibit shipping caimens specifically, as long as you are cerified to ship. Shipping caimens out of state from florida is not illegil either, as I understand the laws. Keeping and selling caimens in Florida is not illegil as long as you have the proper permits.

So what exactly is it that was illegil? I missed something somewhere.

Lack of labeling on an interstate shipment is a Lacey Act violation.

Yep!

The waiver from Fedex to ship reptiles states that the boxes must be properly labelled.

Yep Yep!


I stamp each and every box that leaves my place in red ink. It says:

Handle With Care
Live Harmless Reptiles

along with arrows pointing up.

None of my customers have contacted me and said the box looks like it was used in a soccer match. So I dont buy the.... shipper will try and destroy the box routine.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

Well, I think your kidding yourself !

and your missing the point.. Dan fulfilled his obligation by the animal arriving alive as provided for in the TOS. If you want to read into these things, which you seem to be doing, then so be it. You are right, there is nothing wrong in notifying the seller that the shipment arrived as agreed upon, but nothing was mentioned as to the condition of the animal that would arouse any suspicion of some kind of abnormality in the animal... For all intents and purposes, Dan sold you the animal, FedEx delivered it on time, and your wife indicated that as far as she was concerned, the transaction was satisfied....


Now what happens 4 days later, is another situation entirely.. We both will agree on that ! Where the liability belongs is also questionable ! But I think that your methods of attempting to get a refund by threatning all sorts of action through outside sources, does not sit well with my observations on this incident...

I think in the end, FedEx will continue to ship Dans herps. Dan will continue to advertise because he apparently does have the ncessary permits, Paypal will not even entertain a refund, so your options which should have been a more mature method would have been to assume some responsibility and maybe Dan would have had a change of heart and worked something out with you....


But I think anyone who would do business with you should really really reconsider because I think there is a lack of maturity in you understanding that this is not a risk free venture, and your shoulders will have to bear some weight in any activity that may result in dissatisfaction !

 

[NeoReptiliac]

I would like to just make it clear. That I never demanded a refund or else try to get him in trouble. I never claimed that if he didn't give me a refund I would try my best to get him in trouble with any athorities. I was just doing what a person should do when they find that someone is breaking the law. I'm sure its quite alright in your opinion to just let people slide on such matters. Turn the other cheek right? Look the other way? Well that's not me. And that's all I have to say about that.

 

[KelliH]

Yep!




Yep Yep!


I stamp each and every box that leaves my place in red ink. It says:

Handle With Care
Live Harmless Reptiles

along with arrows pointing up.

None of my customers have contacted me and said the box looks like it was used in a soccer match. So I dont buy the.... shipper will try and destroy the box routine.

Doesn't the Lacey Act require the scientific name of the species to be on the outside of the box?

 

[Twizted Paths]

The part of the Lacey Act Discussion with relevant government links is here .