Selective Breeding - Pastels

[DJSlurp1200]

I'm not sure what you are agreeing with, but I don't think breeding ANY Ball Python female at a year and a half old and 1100g is something to be bragging about. They are not mature enough, it is very hard on their bodies, and can take a toll in the long term if not right away.

It's kind of like an 11 year old human having a baby....just because they CAN doesn't mean that they SHOULD.

There is NOTHING wrong with breeding a 1100g female that is a year and a half old...

Here's a female that was 1100g's and literally 1.5yrs old when she was paired together with a couple differen't males... She bred, laid her eggs, we even let her maternally incubate them for the entire period 57-60 days...

She ate right away as soon as she was offered food and is now back up to size as if she never laid not even a month-month and a half after hatching out her eggs... The photo below was taken just the other day... She's looking great and we plan to pair her up again around jan-feb. Whether or not she takes again is one thing but she's looking great either way!

 

[Cat_72]

First of all I dont think you can compare any animal to a human. Certainly not a snake. You cant tell me that under the right conditions out in the wild that this this snake would not breed. Where humans have no control over it.I also have yet to see any proof of this being harmful to a perfectly healthy snake. Yet I am sur you have no problem with breeding Albinos or spiders, and everyone knows and there is proof that they breed issues such as spinning, kinked tails. We all know these snakes are not found like this in the wild since they would not live long. Yet people possible even you seem to have no problem breeding them. Any animal under the right conditions that is healthy with plenty of good quality food will grow faster and larger and produce sooner in the wild. That is natural!

First of all....I was not comparing them morally, or however you want to take it. I was speaking of body maturity. Instead of using human, use a 6 month old female dog if you want to, I don't care. The idea is the same - just because they CAN, doesn't mean that it is healthy for them to do so. Basic physiology, no matter what kind of animal it is, doesn't change.

As far as you having seen no "proof" of this being detrimental to their health....well, your obviously extensive research shows, since you don't even know that albinos do not have issues with spinning or kinked tails (or spinning kinked tails lol). Do some REAL research, ask some reputable breeders at what weight and age they recommend breeding a female. Any of them who values their animals themselves will tell you that 1100 g and a year and a half old is NOT the answer. We don't put our human "wants" in front of their physical well-being. And nope, I haven't bred any spiders specifically because of the "spinning" issue.

As far as your whole "in the wild" arguement....it's utterly ridiculous ....not to mention, as Bryon already said...where do you think these morphs originally came from, if not the wild?

 

[hhmoore]

I was hesitant to do this - in part because I am less than thrilled, overall, with the way my pastels are turning out. Don't get me wrong, they're okay...but they aren't knockouts. Frankly, I think they look better as adults than some of the babies I've seen advertised, which is pretty sad. These are all a minimum of 1000g, with the biggest girl being close to 1700g. I'll put the females in this post - in this order: blonde1, blonde2, bell, graziani.

 

[hhmoore]

The males are a lemon line (definitely not a lemon), and a "generic" pastel produced by Evan... both at, or over, 1000g

 

[hhmoore]

Now, I didn't mess around with trying to get the best shots, it was pretty much pull and snap, but the color is relatively close. A couple are better than they look. I'll admit that I was hoping for brighter, more yellow animals...but I am not going to discard my bumblebee project (such as it is, lol) and start over. If I find myself tolerant enough of the idea, I'll try to refine the pastels a bit...maybe do some supers, and breed those with one of the other pastels, or the one normal I will be keeping just because I like her. If I produce bees, and they look as bad as some of the ones I've seen available this year, I'll probably bail.

 

[norsmis]

Ron , for a pastel breeding you want to find females with as much yellow as possible. In a lot of cases the yellow will darken but not turn a dark brown. Orange is not your friend in Pastels as that is the color that turns the dark brown.

For older females look at the spinal color , if it is stark yellow that's a good sign combined with yellow at the belly. If the side colors aren't brown then its a fair sign that there is little to no orange. Some females will stay yellow all their lives but those getting to be few & far between to find.

Part of what darkens any normal is a wash of melanin. If you look close at the sides you see the black laid over the color. The less of the melanin wash the better.

Thanks Bry. I am new to the ball pythons and may not even breed the little guy. I got him because I liked the look of him, not for future breeding plans. I just wanted some info in case I do decide to breed him later.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Now, I didn't mess around with trying to get the best shots, it was pretty much pull and snap, but the color is relatively close. A couple are better than they look. I'll admit that I was hoping for brighter, more yellow animals...but I am not going to discard my bumblebee project (such as it is, lol) and start over. If I find myself tolerant enough of the idea, I'll try to refine the pastels a bit...maybe do some supers, and breed those with one of the other pastels, or the one normal I will be keeping just because I like her. If I produce bees, and they look as bad as some of the ones I've seen available this year, I'll probably bail.

I like numbers 1 and 3 of the females and number 1 of the males. But they are all beautiful. This is what people are talking about when they say it's not all about color..it's not all about striving for perfection.

Me, I love the blushing on Pastels and the green eyes. Even if a Pastel is "browned out," they still have those fabulous GREEN EYES!

I love BPs (actually LOVE them) I haven't seen a "butt ugly" pastel

 

[hhmoore]

Thanks, Deborah...the second blonde female actually looks better in person. I like the blushing on the other blonde, but that one's crisp banded pattern made buying her a no brainer as soon as I saw her. Both the Bell and the Graziani are slightly more yellow than they appear in the pictures, as well.
For me to work with pastels, I'll have to feel like I am improving on what I have. I don't dislike mine; but if I can't make the babies look better, there's really no reason for me to use them to produce more. But since my plans don't include much (if anything) in the way of pastel x normal breedings, I'm hopeful that the improvements will come.

If you can seriously say you have never seen a butt ugly pastel, I'm guessing you haven't been paying attention, lol. Bet I can find one to show you tomorrow ....but that might mean I have to give more than a cursory look to the BPs. The things I don't do for friends

 

[rabernet]

Thanks for sharing your pictures, Harald, it's always nice to see adults and how they mature. I've been interested in the blonde lines as well! I can't wait to see how the little girl I produced matures into an adult, I'm hopeful that she'll be as nice, if not nicer than her father.

 

[arcticsnowfx]

your post shows that you are not up on the morphs...spiders do the spinning if you havent seen it you can on youtube. as far as the albinos they can be born without an eye and tend to have feeding problems. I didnt say I cared about it. Just thought it was funny how people will bitch about breeding to soon, but have no problem breeding neuro problems or deformities. I would like to know if you have have been to africa. Was wondering how you know just how much the wild snakes are eating, and at what age they are breeding at. Do you follow them around to make sure they dont breed before age 3. I think NOT. You are just another hypocrite

 

[deborahbroadus]

Thanks, Deborah...the second blonde female actually looks better in person. I like the blushing on the other blonde, but that one's crisp banded pattern made buying her a no brainer as soon as I saw her. Both the Bell and the Graziani are slightly more yellow than they appear in the pictures, as well.
For me to work with pastels, I'll have to feel like I am improving on what I have. I don't dislike mine; but if I can't make the babies look better, there's really no reason for me to use them to produce more. But since my plans don't include much (if anything) in the way of pastel x normal breedings, I'm hopeful that the improvements will come.

If you can seriously say you have never seen a butt ugly pastel, I'm guessing you haven't been paying attention, lol. Bet I can find one to show you tomorrow ....but that might mean I have to give more than a cursory look to the BPs. The things I don't do for friends

You not going to do it, right? Otherwise it would be, "The things I do for friends!"

It's not always about external beauty Harald (not for me)..and not all the time.

For example:

I like this girl (below), she's beautiful, but she will be bred to a substandard animal this season because she REJECTS all the beautiful males!!

Sorry for the crappy pics..but since she got her spirit back..she doesn't sit still...I haven't had her very long.

One thing I have noticed about breeding..you can't always select the best male if the female won't take any but her own choice.

I have Nick's male here (albino) He is gorgeous!! I put him to my girl Galadriel, and she rejects him EVERY TIME. I have done EVERYTHING. SO...I separate them to show that it's nothing that I am doing and put him with a fat black female...BAM!! He's on it like rice on white....Soooo I put him back with Galadriel later..sheeeesh..the temp dropped in the freaking tub (she gave him the cold shoulder again!!

Soooo to prove again it's not me...that I am doing everything right, I put a black male with her..BAM..she couldn't open her vents fast enough. After he is done, I put the Albino back...shhhheeeeeeeesh!! (time is passing between these events)

Sooo, I put a Spider on her..and wouldn't you know it..the SLUT! But nothing doing with the male Albino.

In a nutshell, we can talk about breeding and selecting all we want, IMO..but if the female doesn't cooperate...it's all over.

 

[LakesideBoas]

your post shows that you are not up on the morphs...spiders do the spinning if you havent seen it you can on youtube. as far as the albinos they can be born without an eye and tend to have feeding problems. I didnt say I cared about it. Just thought it was funny how people will bitch about breeding to soon, but have no problem breeding neuro problems or deformities. I would like to know if you have have been to africa. Was wondering how you know just how much the wild snakes are eating, and at what age they are breeding at. Do you follow them around to make sure they dont breed before age 3. I think NOT. You are just another hypocrite

I have a big problem breeding neurolocial problems and deformities therefore I do not purchase animals exhibiting such traits. Don't paint everyone with the same paintbrush, thank you.

Doesn't it behoove us as their keepers to do the best things possible for them while they are in our care.

You argue that they may breed in the wild at that age and you're not sure how much they eat either, but you're not following them around either, so pin that "hypocrite" button on your own chest while you are at it.

Did you ever stop to think that the exporters in Africa might just pass on a little info to the people who buy and sometimes hand-pick their own exports?

Edit: any animal that should manifest any deformity or neurological problem will be retired from the breeding pool.

 

[BryonsBoas]

Who are these " people" ? I keep seeing this pop up. For the love of God , say what you mean to who you mean it to about what you mean.

I for one would like to see something proving that its not long term detrimental to breed females so young. I won't say small since anyone who has ever done the research knows food gets scarce in the wild so weight can & does go on slower than in captivity.

your post shows that you are not up on the morphs...spiders do the spinning if you havent seen it you can on youtube. as far as the albinos they can be born without an eye and tend to have feeding problems. I didnt say I cared about it. Just thought it was funny how people will bitch about breeding to soon, but have no problem breeding neuro problems or deformities. I would like to know if you have have been to africa. Was wondering how you know just how much the wild snakes are eating, and at what age they are breeding at. Do you follow them around to make sure they dont breed before age 3. I think NOT. You are just another hypocrite

Your post show you to be lacking in the ability of grown up conversation or the ability to back up anything you post with anything of validity.

As far as the female being the key to breeding , males are a key also. A male not ready to go or not wanting to go is going to do nothing to gain interest by the female. Saying " I like this girl (below), she's beautiful, but she will be bred to a substandard animal this season because she REJECTS all the beautiful males!! " isn't something I agree with. To me , that's nothing more than excuse to breed just to produce eggs. Before anyone starts , I have projects too but I hold to my standards and if they don't go , they just don't go. I'm not going to swap males just to produce babies, especially substandard ones.

Harald , your animals are quite standard for ADULTS. Its the piss poor planing and breeding substandard animals that look like that or worse at hatching that got this thread started.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Bryon..the animal would probably be substandard by your standards...that was a play on words...because actually none of my animals are "substandard" in my opinion (I thought I made that clear). I am breeding her because I WANT to breed...because I am fascinated by the species and I am letting HER have a choice of mate; also this is a business, but I'll do the best I can with what I have.

Do I want to improve the species, sure..but I do not have a "drive" for perfection that would make me cull any animal that didn't meet my specifications or force my girls to breed with someone that they rejected. Besides, she might give off some spectacular animals even with my "substandard" animal.

 

[BryonsBoas]

This is Tater , Nerd Lemon Line. I got him from a breeder loan , the last I have done and heres why.

His father as an adult was a screaming yellow without a single brown scale on him. I sent my female to whom at the time , had a very substantial reputation. My female was to be bred to this Lemon male. What I found out by visiting after I Tater was he took in breeding loans from 3 - 5 people a year and used the best females to breed his High End Morphs and the lower standard females that were left were bred by his Lemon.

I found this out when my friend ( who had a breeder loan going on to with him ) & I were shown his snake room. All the best females had stickers showing his Lesser , Pin , Butter etc had been run thru them and the rack of browner females had only one sticker showing the Lemon. It was easy to figure out since he had a dry erase board listing his males with the various colored stickers next to each of the males listed.

Now I love Tater and I think he's badass even tho he could've been better if the female I sent had been bred by the Lemon instead. So , knowing what I know about pastels and what I keep learning , I'm in the process of handpicking females just for him. They either make the grade or don't. He is also the epitome of something I said in my last post. HE decides which females he'll breed. It doesn't matter if the females are ready or receptive , if he don't like them , he don't touch them. Its NOT just on the female. So knowing this it means I need a number of select females for him. I also have plans for a couple special girls to come in next year for him & Samhocks.

 

[BryonsBoas]

Bryon..the animal would probably be substandard by your standards...that was a play on words...because actually none of my animals are "substandard" in my opinion (I thought I made that clear). I am breeding her because I WANT to breed...because I am fascinated by the species and I am letting HER have a choice of mate; also this is a business, but I'll do the best I can with what I have.

Do I want to improve the species, sure..but I do not have a "drive" for perfection that would make me cull any animal that didn't meet my specifications or force my girls to breed with someone that they rejected. Besides, she might give off some spectacular animals even with my "substandard" animal.

The bolded section tells it all.

The blue section is an alien concept for me. I give everything or nothing. The animals I produce are as much a signature of my efforts as making sure the customer gets a healthy & problem free animal that leaves them satisfied at the least. As much as I love the breeding & baby seasons , unless I had a back up male or female of equal standard for that project to fall back on , I'd rather they didn't breed than to swap up to what ever would go just to get babies. This is a hobby & a business for me but I have far different standards for what I produce and am willing to put my name to. But whatever gets you through the day.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Who are these " people" ? I keep seeing this pop up. For the love of God , say what you mean to who you mean it to about what you mean.

I for one would like to see something proving that its not long term detrimental to breed females so young. I won't say small since anyone who has ever done the research knows food gets scarce in the wild so weight can & does go on slower than in captivity.



Your post show you to be lacking in the ability of grown up conversation or the ability to back up anything you post with anything of validity.

As far as the female being the key to breeding , males are a key also. A male not ready to go or not wanting to go is going to do nothing to gain interest by the female. Saying " I like this girl (below), she's beautiful, but she will be bred to a substandard animal this season because she REJECTS all the beautiful males!! " isn't something I agree with. To me , that's nothing more than excuse to breed just to produce eggs. Before anyone starts , I have projects too but I hold to my standards and if they don't go , they just don't go. I'm not going to swap males just to produce babies, especially substandard ones.

Harald , your animals are quite standard for ADULTS. Its the piss poor planing and breeding substandard animals that look like that or worse at hatching that got this thread started.

Bryon, I want to make it clear that I am not disagreeing with you. We need more people that strive for perfection. However, your standard of perfection may not be anothers? As we have seen, people buy BPs according to what appeals to them. The world is big enough for the imperfect too imo, if every animal had one standard and any animal that didn't meet that standard was culled..the world would be a crappy place because there would be few animals.

But like I said, I agree with you. So you hold back your animals and don't breed them until you find an animal that meets your exacting specifications, and I'll probably be one of the first ones to buy from you when you achieve that!

 

[deborahbroadus]

This is Tater , Nerd Lemon Line. I got him from a breeder loan , the last I have done and heres why.

His father as an adult was a screaming yellow without a single brown scale on him. I sent my female to whom at the time , had a very substantial reputation. My female was to be bred to this Lemon male. What I found out by visiting after I Tater was he took in breeding loans from 3 - 5 people a year and used the best females to breed his High End Morphs and the lower standard females that were left were bred by his Lemon.

I found this out when my friend ( who had a breeder loan going on to with him ) & I were shown his snake room. All the best females had stickers showing his Lesser , Pin , Butter etc had been run thru them and the rack of browner females had only one sticker showing the Lemon. It was easy to figure out since he had a dry erase board listing his males with the various colored stickers next to each of the males listed.

Now I love Tater and I think he's badass even tho he could've been better if the female I sent had been bred by the Lemon instead. So , knowing what I know about pastels and what I keep learning , I'm in the process of handpicking females just for him. They either make the grade or don't. He is also the epitome of something I said in my last post. HE decides which females he'll breed. It doesn't matter if the females are ready or receptive , if he don't like them , he don't touch them. Its NOT just on the female. So knowing this it means I need a number of select females for him. I also have plans for a couple special girls to come in next year for him & Samhocks.

Misunderstood a word. reposting.

 

[BryonsBoas]

I find the way that he is quite acceptable. Where did you get that I didn't? I never said I didn't find him acceptable. I chose that particular breeder after seeing his male and researching his standing in the reptile community. I stated simply he would be even better if he was bred to the female I sent. What part of that didn't you get?

Is there a wide spread lack of reading comprehension?

 

[deborahbroadus]

This is Tater , Nerd Lemon Line. I got him from a breeder loan , the last I have done and heres why.

His father as an adult was a screaming yellow without a single brown scale on him. I sent my female to whom at the time , had a very substantial reputation. My female was to be bred to this Lemon male. What I found out by visiting after I Tater was he took in breeding loans from 3 - 5 people a year and used the best females to breed his High End Morphs and the lower standard females that were left were bred by his Lemon.
I found this out when my friend ( who had a breeder loan going on to with him ) & I were shown his snake room. All the best females had stickers showing his Lesser , Pin , Butter etc had been run thru them and the rack of browner females had only one sticker showing the Lemon. It was easy to figure out since he had a dry erase board listing his males with the various colored stickers next to each of the males listed.

Now I love Tater and I think he's badass even tho he could've been better if the female I sent had been bred by the Lemon instead. So , knowing what I know about pastels and what I keep learning , I'm in the process of handpicking females just for him. They either make the grade or don't. He is also the epitome of something I said in my last post. HE decides which females he'll breed. It doesn't matter if the females are ready or receptive , if he don't like them , he don't touch them. Its NOT just on the female. So knowing this it means I need a number of select females for him. I also have plans for a couple special girls to come in next year for him & Samhocks.

Isn't it possible that he was trying to "improve" the stock? Browner to the lemon and the more bright to other animals?