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SELLERS BEWARE

B

BILL CAGLE

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CHRIS HENRICH OR CHRIS RED IS A BAD GUY. I SOLD HIM TWO BOAS AND HE LATER SAID ONE OF THEM DIED AND THE OTHER WAS SICK. I OFFERED HIM A REFUND OR REPLACEMENT BOAS AND HE WANTED REPLACEMENT BOAS, SO I SENT THEM TO HIM. I ASKED FOR THE DEAD BOA OR AT LEAST A PICTURE OF IT. I NEVER RECEIVED EITHER. HE SAID HE TOOK THE ANIMAL TO THE VET SO I ASKED HIM TO MAIL ME A HARD COPY OF THE VET REPORT. I ALSO NEVER RECEIVED THIS. I NOTICED IN ANOTHER POST WHERE HE STATES THAT ALL HIS BOAS ARE DOING GREAT. WELL 4 OF THOSE BOAS ARE MINE AND TWO OF THEM WERE SENT IN GOOD FAITH. I HAVE NEVER RECEIVED ANYTHING! NO DEAD BOA, NOT EVEN A PIC OF THE DEAD BOA, NO VET REPORT, NOTHING BUT LIES!
 
Hey Bill ... look what i found !! OMG its a bird .... its a plane .... its that IBD report you said you never saw!!!! Here ya go bill i think ya may have "overlooked it buddy" i can see why !
and i may be wrong but if you take time to go through all the threads you may see something there about  him sending you the snake back .. i think i saw he said it was in the freezer .. but i could be wrong  .. do a lil research  ... if ya had time to post this im sure you had time to look for the proof
 
Neil why dont you calm down and let him explain himself your not mr perfect yourself, "mental note dont do buisness with...." but now you are all on their side

Kim if you have anything worth while to ad please do so

Alan if you were in Bills shoes would you accept that for evidence to amke a sound judgement on? a scan version on this board or would you want an affical copy direct from the Vet so you could take it to a vet you know and trust with reptiles? I dont know what vet chris took the animal, does the guy have experiance with reptiles? maybe, mabye not, if he is not that experianced alot of what is in there could be wrong, and just like Neil read and agreed in another thread because of the problems in this hobby with reliable vets a seller is better taking the animal back and going to his/her reliable vet for a sound desicion I am going to show you a picture of what happens to aniamls that go to inexperianced "so called herp vets" the origanl surgery happened with a prior owner, the tort ate a brick, well common procedure with a vet that knows what they are doing on torts is to go through the bottom the shell as you will see he didnot, why is beyond all of us, the other vets told us learning to go through the bottom is in "herp 101", it heals better faster, and the tissue is easier to work with, the origanal vet that did this claimed to be experianced with all exotics, with exotics birds yes he is, he owns and runs a bird of prey rehab, in torts it is obvious that he is not experianced, however claimed to be so, so I will ask my question again, the link you have posted would you accept that as proof? or would you want an offical copy direct from the vet with the rest of the reports to make a sound judgement with a vet YOU KNOW is a good herp vet? this tort has suffered gone through $3000+ in several surgeries since and now is after two years is only starting to act and seem happy, he will never grow his shell back there, he'll get some kind of bony surface but not shell and Alan please take note I try to explain this to you all snide, smart a$$ comments and remarks aside, would you back up a call made by a vet you know nothing of that may know very little or nothing of reptiles or would you want your vet to see all the offical reports, files and documents so you could make a sound call???

<img src=http://www.printroom.com/_vti_bin/ViewImage.dll?userid=dumerils%2Dcom&album_id=52232&image_id=21&courtesy=1>
 
what now bill = what are you going to do about it bill?
or also could mean what are we to do about it bill?
thats my contribution.
take it or leave it - it was not directed to you jason
nor was it derogatory or ill intended.
please refrain from reading negativity into everything said jason. thats how you screwed it up for bill last time.
my question also is this..( jason please feel no need to speak for bill here ) how do we know that the report enclosed in halls herps post is for said snake that bill cagle sold him..or was it said snakes..plural. either way.
im not taking sides im just wondering as i would wonder if i were the seller how to determine the answer to that question.
 
I think we need to calm down and take this as a serious issue regarless of who started it!
Mr. Cagle I do not agree with a lot of what you have wrote on this board but I am not here to attack you.  
Neil and Alan...you know I have no "beef" with you guys!
The point here being is...When do you give a refund or replace the snake(s)?
I am in the process of building our website now and have had to give some serious thought as to how to word our "guarantee".  With the help of my better half (Tammy-The "BRAINS" of this outfit) we came up with a guarantee of a live arrival of a healthy, eating and disease free animal(s).  If the animal(s) do not arrive that way we require a picture as proof before replacing the animal(s) if what they ordered or something of comparable value is available.  The only way to get a cash refund is to provide photographic proof of the "health problem" or ship the snake back as proof.  If we can not replace it then you get your money back, minus shipping of course.
This is just my two cents on the basis if this issue.

Thanks,
Mike Pinkston
HISS THIS HERPS
 
Jason ,
ok heres what i saw in Bills post about chris being a bad guy.
1-. I ASKED FOR THE DEAD BOA OR AT LEAST A PICTURE OF IT. I NEVER RECEIVED EITHER.
( now thats seems very reasonable thing to want i would want the same in the case od a dead snake)

2-HE SAID HE TOOK THE ANIMAL TO THE VET SO I ASKED HIM TO MAIL ME A HARD COPY OF THE VET REPORT. I ALSO NEVER RECEIVED THIS.
( ok granted chris didnt or may have not snailmailed a copy of the vet reports to Bill but the scanned picture of the report to show him ) that there looks like from Bill wanting to see it would be suffiecient evidence as proof

3-I NOTICED IN ANOTHER POST WHERE HE STATES THAT ALL HIS BOAS ARE DOING GREATWELL 4 OF THOSE BOAS ARE MINE AND TWO OF THEM WERE SENT IN GOOD FAITH. I HAVE NEVER RECEIVED ANYTHING! NO DEAD BOA, NOT EVEN A PIC OF THE DEAD BOA, NO VET REPORT, NOTHING BUT LIES!
ok to this all i can think is its rather arrogant to think that From what Bill worded chris as sayingabout his snakes being "fine" is that he must think he is the only person that has snakes that are able to be sold? and that maybe chris didnt have any other snakes then Bills.

Now as far as what you said about the fact that chris's vet may not know what hes doing? well there you venture into a very GREY area , IMO cause as we all know you hvae to make  your vets you choose a good endeavor, now i will say there are lots of vets that know zilch about xotics but to ASSUME that ones vet is better then anothers vet ...without knowing either vet on a buisness basis is making a ASS out of U & ME so what would make chris so apyt to think that Bills vet is any more qualified to do this teszting then his vet? and also from what i have read chris does and did have other snakes before getting these from Cagle, so this would seem to lead to the fact that he must at onepoint or another been to this vet before and trusted the vet and or knew this vets reputation..
so basically what i was  showing  Bill in my reply was that chris did have a copy of A vets report.
Kim as you said theres no hard way to know what snake that may have come from  ... BUT also in defense of that where does one make the line in the sand that a vet report  on a snake/snakes is the actual report needed?
 
I agree with Rich this post was on it's way to "never never land".  
Thanks Alan for your attempt at bringing things back to the issue.
There is all in all a serious issue here that deserves discussion without prejudice.

Mike Pinkston
 
Bill...your out of your mind...you told me two keep the two sick snakes.....you did not even want them!!! You told me to kill them. The vet. report cost me 200 bucks...you want it pay for it, are get off line!!!
You called me a few weeks ago wanting it for your court case. Now a few months done the road you issue a warning about me...come on Bill get a life!!! The snakes you sent were sick no question you knew went you sent them in the beat up old box, not only that they were sexed wrong!!!  You told me your self  that you knew as soon as you mailed them I was not going to be happy...what's wrong with you Bill???  I have lied about nothing....when I found out it was IBD I wanted to sent them all back to you and you agreed, you said you would mail me a box to ship them in...well where's the box Bill....I don't have time to dick with you Bill your an IDIOT !!!
 I've bought snakes from many of people online and never had a problem at all....nice snakes  for real money not the like the crap you sent me!!!! So seller beware of my money it's hard earned and real!!!
 
Oh Bill I see what you think all my snakes means the four I got for you...lol  please Bill use your head there are more snakes out there then ones from your barn!!! You know that snake is dead I asked you about when you called me a few weeks ago and you said you knew it was true.....please get your lies in some order!!
 
To Chris...
 I do appreciate your situation and hope you and Bill get things resolved.
 Bill, if the man's snakes are dead get the proof you need and give him the money you owe him.
 I do have to say I have not done business with Bill Cagle so I have no informed opinion on his business practices.

Mike Pinkston
 
alan

what i said was..or was trying to say was...
do you have a picture of the first dead snake..assuming that the first dead snake was the one that the autopsy was done on.
correct me if the autopsy was done on something other than the first dead snake.
thats all i was asking.
is there any documentation that can assist chris in his argument?
can we identify that cagle sent to chris the first snake that died of ibd? other than the written report of why it died?
that was my question.
( i hope this doesnt sound too remedial was just trying to make the question as clear as possible )
 
Here is a few Bill emails...make of it what you will


HEY CHRIS, I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND. I WILL SHIP YOU ONE OF MY FEMALES ON
THURSDAY FOR FRIDAY MORNING DELIVERY. SHE IS A VERY NICE ONE AND I THINK YOU
WILL BE VERY HAPPY WITH HER. I AM SORRY ABOUT THE OTHER ONE. I SHOULD HAVE
KEPT HER LONGER AND MADE 100% SURE SHE WAS OK BEFORE SELLING. I HAVE BEEN
TRYING TO GET HOLD OF DALE PICOLA (SAN DIEGO VIVARIUM) BUT HE IS AVOIDING MY
CALLS. HE IS REAL PIECE OF WORK! I WILL NOT BE BUYING ANYMORE ANIMALS FROM
HIM NEEDLESS TO SAY. WELL ANYWAY, PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHEN SHE ARRIVES ON
FRIDAY. IF YOU AND YOUR VET CAN NURSE THE OTHER FEMALE BACK TO HEALTH, JUST
GO AHEAD AND KEEP HER TOO. I WOULD KEEP HER ISOLATED FROM THE OTHERS THOUGH.

THANKS, BILL


HEY CHRIS, NO I DON'T HATE YOU IN THE LEAST. I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND AND LIKE I
SAID YESTERDAY, I WISH I HAD NEVER SHIPPED THOSE 2 ANIMALS OUT. THEY WERE
SOLD TO ME AS A PAIR AND I WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED IF THAT WAS WRONG TOO. I
HATE TO SOUND LIKE I AM BLAMING THIS ON DALE AS WELL, BUT I GUESS I AM. THIS
WHOLE EPISODE HAS GONE FROM BAD TO WORSE. I AM VERY SORRY THAT YOU HAVE 3
FEMALES, BUT AT THIS POINT, ALL I CAN DO IS GIVE YOU A DISCOUNT TOWARDS A
MALE. I WILL ONLY SELL YOU ANIMALS FROM MY PERSONAL COLLECTION. PLEASE LET ME
KNOW IF I CAN HELP.

YOUR FRIEND AND FELLOW HERPER, BILL


THANKS FOR THE KIND WORDS CHRIS, BUT AT THIS POINT I AM THE ONE THAT NEEDS TO
BE SAYING THEM TO YOU. I AM VERY SORRY FOR CREATING STRESS IN YOUR LIFE OVER
THE PAST SEVERAL DAYS. I HOPE YOU ACCEPT MY APOLOGIES AND I HAVE LEARNED
ANOTHER VALUABLE LESSON IN LIFE. THIS HAS MADE ME A LITTLE SMARTER AND IF
NOTHING ELSE I HAVE THAT. I HOPE YOU ENJOY THE TWO NEW SURINAMES AND THANKS
AGAIN.......

YOUR FRIEND AND FELLOW HERPER, BILL


HEY CHRIS, I DO NOT KEEP MONEY IN MY PAYPAL ACCOUNT. IT WOULD TAKE AT LEAST 3
DAYS TO TRANSFER IT FROM MY BANK TO SEND IT TO YOU. THE ONLY WAY I WILL SEND
YOU A DIME, IS IF YOU RECTIFY THE SITUATION YOU HAVE CREATED ON THE BOA
FORUM. I WOULD LIKE FOR YOU TO STATE EXACTLY WHERE THE ANIMALS CAME FROM AND
THAT YOU VERIFIED IT WITH DALE PICOLA HIMSELF. YOU SAID THAT YOU DID THIS, SO
IT SHOULD BE NO PROBLEM TO POST IT AND TELL EVERYONE. IF YOU DO THIS, I WILL
SEND YOU A CHECK, ASAP. I'VE TRIED MY BEST TO FIX THINGS ON MY END, NOW IT IS
YOUR TURN.

THANKS, BILL


NO CHRIS, IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO RIGHT YOUR WRONGS. I HAVE DONE EVERYTHING IN
MY POWER TO MAKE THIS SITUATION RIGHT, AND NOW LIKE I SAID EARLIER, IT IS
YOUR TURN. WHEN I HEAR FROM MY FRIEND THAT YOU HAVE POSTED A TOTAL
EXPLANATION OF WHERE THE ANIMALS CAME FROM, I WILL PAY YOU AT THAT TIME. YOU
KNOW THE AMIMALS WERE NOT FROM MY COLLECTION, DALE TOLD YOU HIMSELF. YOU ALSO
KNOW YOU GOT TWO PERFECT ANIMALS FROM MY PERSONAL COLLECTION. AS YOU TOLD ME
IN AN EARLIER EMAIL, IT'S TIME TO CLEAR THIS WHOLE DEAL UP. YOU MUST START BY
SIMPLY POSTING THE FACTS ON THE FORUM. I DON'T THINK THIS IS MUCH TO ASK
CONSIDERING ALL I HAVE DONE TO MAKE THINGS RIGHT. I HOPE WE CAN BE FRIENDS
WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE.

THANKS, BILL



HEY CHRIS, YOU ARE ASKING ME TO KEEP ON GIVING, AND YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO
GIVE ANY AT ALL. I WILL NOT PAY OR DO ANYTHING IN REGARDS TO THIS MATTER,
UNTIL YOU HAVE TOLD THE WHOLE STORY. AT THIS POINT, THIS IS WAY MORE
IMPORTANT THAN THE MONEY TO ME. I AM NOT ASKING YOU TO DO SOMETHING
IRRATIONAL, I'M ONLY ASKING YOU TO TELL THE TRUTH. WHEN YOU POST, I WILL
PAYPAL. NOT UNTIL.

THANKS AGAIN, BILL
 
im starting to wonder if im retarded.
by reading the emails i still cant see if it is clearly determined other than the word of chris that it was cagles snakes that died . can someone more enlightened please explain to me where other than an assumption on cagles part we can verify that cagles snakes were the ones that died?
<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'> please help pea brain here in california to get it!
thanks
 
Ok .. well Chris the only way you can resolve this entire ordeal IMo is this .

When you bought the these snakes from Cagle , Do you have pictures of the snakes ?

When this snake / snakes died did you get pictures of the dead snakes ?

When you sent this snake/snakes to the vet for the Necropsy did you get pictures of the snake?

When your vet did the Necropsy did he happen to document it with pictures of the snake?

If the answers are yes to more then one of the above questions i think it would be wise on your part to post it if its available , this would help make your claims clear to all of us .

and last thing i will ask about this and i will be completely finsihed with all of the IBD , Cagle this n that post that ever arise again on the BOI or anywhere in the herp world.
If you still have the snake/snakes that were IBD postive ... however hard it may be to do  due to you wanting to have him pay or send you a box to ship itto him in , just go out get a box ship him the eveidence so he can see it for hiself and then there should be NO DOUBT in his mind or anyones mind of these findings.


I know Neil has some nice boxes he could offer to you for shipping  & if need be I will even pay shipping to get the proof to Cagle so his needs will be satisfied and he can then  come here and post what you claimed and showed were held up
 
ALL ME AND MY ATORNEY AND VET WANTED WAS SOME PROOF. THE DEAD SNAKE OR AT LEAST A PICTURE OF IT TO VERIFY THAT IT WAS INDEED THE ANIMAL CHRIS PURCHASED. WE ALSO ASKED FOR A HARD COPY OF THE VET REPORT TO REVIEW. I RECEIVED NOTHING AND THIS WHOLE IBD ISSUE WAS FORMED WITH NO PROFF. I HIRED AN ATTORNEY TO INVESTIGATE DALE AND WE FOUND OUT MORE THAN WE EVER EXPECTED. PLEASE PUT YOURSELF IN MY SHOES FOR A MINUTE AND THEN DECIDE HOW YOU WOULD FEEL AT THIS POINT. I DID THE HERP WORLD A FAVOR AT MY EXPENSE WHEN I HIRED A LAWER TO STOP A MAN FROM SELLING SICK ANIMALS TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC. WHAT DID I GET FROM SOME OF YOU GUYS FOR DOING THIS? NOTHING BUT A HARD TIME. HOW AM I SUPOSED TO ACT? SHOULD I BE NICE AND APOLOGIZE FOR GETTING MAD? IF ANYONE THINKS SO PLEASE EXPLAIN.
 
OK...the snake that died was sent away...but I asked my vet and he said he kept the skin.....as for as the other one I gave it to some people because I did not want to kill it...Cagle is not going to pay any money to me are he would have already in the agreement we made in the above email...When he called a few weeks ago he told me himself that he believed me about the snakes....he said there was no question in his mind about it, that's why he wanted me to go  to court for him.(but he was not willing to pay any more money) The only reason he brings it up now is he knows it would be very hard to obtain a snake from three months ago!!! Screw him and anyone that doesn't want to deal with me because of lame A$$ word!!! I don't want his money I want him to go away....worste deal in my life!!!!

The two new snakes do look nice...I never said they didn't....IBD was just somthing I didn't want to deal with at this point I'll keep the snakes and wish nothing but bad luck to him from here on out!!!! That's right I said it....that's what all of you want to say anyway!!!!
 If I could get the dead snake from three months ago I'm not willing to... when he  told me not to worry about it!!! The day it died he didn't ask for the dead snake back, why now... The man has problems and I'm not willing to work with him......so take as you will...stick a fork in me I'm done!!!!
 
Oh Bill...the victim.....so I'm a bad  guy for getting some sick snakes....you sent the replacements and I'm a thief and I lie!!!
I feel I did the favor you never would have brought it out of the bag if I would not have....
 
first off.
i dont like some of the things cagle has said. i sure dont appreciate being called an idiot and fool. but it doesnt affect me to the point of vengence either.
second off
we are sitting here like judge and jury of cagle. at that we have the responsibility to get the facts..a little less drama would be nice but hey..it goes with the territory i presume.
so..facts being what cases are made out of one fact seems to be that chris red or whatever his last name really is doesnt have a picture of the dead snake..therefore the fact that it was from cagles indoor or outdoor or whatever collection is merely an assumption cagle made not a fact.
does anyone want to proceed? the fact that we cant prove it was from cagles collection doesnt indemnify him in my opinion but it does start to bring forth some fragment of doubt ....
what frustrates me about this whole incident is the fact that someone clever and sneaky enough could have conceivably done this to set cagle up. whether that was done or not done is still a pending question in my mind. ....
again..sometimes i am retarded so id love it if anyone would care to enlighten me but what i wont do is crucify someone that im not 100 percent sure committed the crime.
not trying to beat a dead horse but cagle opened the door of this subject again and i took it upon myself to try to see what might be inside the door versus just falling back on overall public opinion.
hope everyone still wants to be my friend now..not trying to start a hyper drama by doing what im doing here..
 
one more thing..
chris on your behalf..get the snakes skin!!!!!
geez-us man what are you waiting for?
if you really want to do the herp world a favor get everything you can get to justify your cause and stop making excuses of laziness...its not acceptable .
<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':angry:'>
 
You know what as soon as I can get the time I'll hook up with my Vet. and get a picture of the skin....I'm not mailing it...I'm not touching it!!!  I also do have a picture of the snake form the K.S. ad.......so when I get a chance and when the vet is free of some time I'll take a picture of the skin and Cagle's lawyer can match it to the picture like some Matlock genius and this Scobby Doo Mystery will be solved!!! Then Cagle will be able to set his mind free of any responsablity of this whole matter and pass it on to Dale and his snake lawyer!!!
 
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