Smoothies

[Valley Dragons]

inbreeding???

Um - ur...well, I'm not a genetics expert - but isn't it true that you DON'T have to use inbreeding to create the silkbacks in the first place? The leatherbacks imported from Italy are Co-doms. If you breed those Co-doms with a regular dragon, then you get 1/2 leatherbacks and 1/2 normals. Those leatherbacks are visible HETS for the super form - silkbacks. So basically you could have endless breeding lines (well, depending on how many regular dragons you have) going on for these leatherbacks. And then - you take take one of these Co-dom leatherbacks from ONE line and breed it with a Co-dom leatherback from ANOTHER line. And you get silkbacks. And look ma! No inbreeding!

So there you go. You can't make the argument for bad breeding anymore. If you do, then lets attack the ball python people with all their nasty pastels and super pastels, lol.

Jamie

 

[Valley Dragons]

It has been said to me a few times now that this is a natural occurence in the wild and while that may be so, these pitiful dragons aren't in the wild, so that arguement, in my book, is moot.
They are being put in a small enclosure and basically forced to mate. This is wrong.
I've been writing some different agencies about this and hopefully this can be stopped. I realize that the U.S. don't really have alot of regulations when it comes to reptiles, especially the care and ethical threatment of them but there may be something. Too bad we weren't more like Austria. In Austria - you, your animals and their enclosures are inspected yearly. If something isn't right, you are fined and then if still not fixed, the bearded dragon is removed from your care. I can't see a place like that allowing something like this.

Are you serious? I mean really? You're SERIOUS??? You are writing to people to try to ban the captive breeding of reptiles? Because that is what it SOUNDS like you said. Once we allow the government to start regulating when/how/ and what we breed, do you really think they will stop there? You are just ASKING for trouble. I don't want to be in one of those countries than decide to ban these animals all together just because there are too many percieved "problems" with their keeping and breeding.

As for being forced to mate...lets go ahead and ban dog breeding, horse breeding, fish breeding, cows, sheep, chickens, anything else than this countries allows "forced" breeding of. You're not by chance a democrat are you? Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Now as far as breeding businesses being inspected for quality and proper care, sure, I'd go for that. As far as the goverment going into people's homes - oh, I so don't even want to go down that path!

Jamie

 

[Valley Dragons]

If ANYONES colony, or even PET dragons have the adenovirus. THEY SHOULD NOT BE BREEDING.

Man, Us Ball Python people would be Strung up and Hung, then drawn and Quartered. Sewn back together, only to be dragged at 90mph across a freeway with somone squeezing Lemon Juice into the Wounds, if we were to continue Selling Animals that carried a virus. IBD anyone? Maybe not so drastic, but DANG. Enough is Enough!

Just like the Scaleless ball pythons, and how so many are against it, why on EARTH should people be breeding and selling Dragons with no scales? Its all wrong....

As long as we are going down the path or judging people, lets go ahead and judge ALL animal breeders. I'd like to kick the inventor of dachsunds in the butt. My poor little stumpy-legged dog has such a hard time going up stairs, and she looks like she is in the process of developing back problems. I mean, what kind of an existence is that? Who is the MONSTER that created this biological mess? It's just wrong, plain WRONG!!!

Jamie

 

[whiskersmom]

Are you serious? I mean really? You're SERIOUS??? You are writing to people to try to ban the captive breeding of reptiles? Because that is what it SOUNDS like you said. Once we allow the government to start regulating when/how/ and what we breed, do you really think they will stop there? You are just ASKING for trouble. I don't want to be in one of those countries than decide to ban these animals all together just because there are too many percieved "problems" with their keeping and breeding.

As for being forced to mate...lets go ahead and ban dog breeding, horse breeding, fish breeding, cows, sheep, chickens, anything else than this countries allows "forced" breeding of. You're not by chance a democrat are you? Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Now as far as breeding businesses being inspected for quality and proper care, sure, I'd go for that. As far as the goverment going into people's homes - oh, I so don't even want to go down that path!

Jamie

I no way said anything like that. The word "agencies" doesn't only apply to governmental agencies. And where the heck did you get the word BAN from?
As for dogs, cats and horses.....do we not have a never ending supply of those? Where are you going to get a fresh supply of bearded dragons when you've made our captive breds extinct from Adeno and inbreeding?
Also, you can't compare dogs and cat's to bearded dragons...you just can't. Please, stop doing that. We are talking about a species of animal that has only been in captivity for a very short time versus the dog, cat and even horse.
If the creation of these silkbacks happened to make the species stronger and more healthy, I think more people would be for it but the opposite is true and shouldn't be allowed. If people won't voluntarily do what's right, I'm all for enforcement....and NO I am not a Democrat.

 

[Valley Dragons]

....and NO I am not a Democrat.

Well, at least we agree on one thing, lol!

Jamie

 

[shadi11]

Most species you can get wild caught and purify the genes. With dragons the chances of doing this are gone. So why would anyone want to continue breeding this way and not try something to preserve the species?

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

As long as we are going down the path or judging people, lets go ahead and judge ALL animal breeders. I'd like to kick the inventor of dachsunds in the butt. My poor little stumpy-legged dog has such a hard time going up stairs, and she looks like she is in the process of developing back problems. I mean, what kind of an existence is that? Who is the MONSTER that created this biological mess? It's just wrong, plain WRONG!!!

Jamie

you really dont read posts do you???? did i say ALL breeders go about these things wrong??? where?? Did i say ALL types of breeding are bad? actually, i think in a few posts back, i even MENTIONED there is a RIGHT way to line breed and there is a wrong way.... hmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[walker75]

Um - ur...well, I'm not a genetics expert - but isn't it true that you DON'T have to use inbreeding to create the silkbacks in the first place? The leatherbacks imported from Italy are Co-doms. If you breed those Co-doms with a regular dragon, then you get 1/2 leatherbacks and 1/2 normals. Those leatherbacks are visible HETS for the super form - silkbacks. So basically you could have endless breeding lines (well, depending on how many regular dragons you have) going on for these leatherbacks. And then - you take take one of these Co-dom leatherbacks from ONE line and breed it with a Co-dom leatherback from ANOTHER line. And you get silkbacks. And look ma! No inbreeding!

So there you go. You can't make the argument for bad breeding anymore. If you do, then lets attack the ball python people with all their nasty pastels and super pastels, lol.

Jamie

Jamie a question and just a question

Do you know and are you friends with Vicki Dachiu ?

Seems like another spokesperson has stepped up JMO

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

you really dont read posts do you???? did i say ALL breeders go about these things wrong??? where?? Did i say ALL types of breeding are bad? actually, i think in a few posts back, i even MENTIONED there is a RIGHT way to line breed and there is a wrong way.... hmmmmmmmmmmmm

if that was intended as an Agreement post, i got confused... Now that i reread it... i guess IM the one not reading posts! Or at least the tone of them.... *headdesk*

Nevermind. Now that i see other posts, i think that might be sarcasm in there.. If that is the case, my first post stands. If it is not, well then, sorry you dont agree eh?

 

[monkeywrench133]

Um - ur...well, I'm not a genetics expert - but isn't it true that you DON'T have to use inbreeding to create the silkbacks in the first place? The leatherbacks imported from Italy are Co-doms. If you breed those Co-doms with a regular dragon, then you get 1/2 leatherbacks and 1/2 normals. Those leatherbacks are visible HETS for the super form - silkbacks. So basically you could have endless breeding lines (well, depending on how many regular dragons you have) going on for these leatherbacks. And then - you take take one of these Co-dom leatherbacks from ONE line and breed it with a Co-dom leatherback from ANOTHER line. And you get silkbacks. And look ma! No inbreeding!

I have absolutely no knowledge of BD genetics, but I'd like to know if this statement is true. Can anyone confirm or refute this statement?

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

I have absolutely no knowledge of BD genetics, but I'd like to know if this statement is true. Can anyone confirm or refute this statement?

I would like to know myself actually.

 

[CheriS]

DUH! Where do you think the bright red dragons and the lucy's and all the other morphs came from? Don't you realize that changing the color of the dragon still concentrates the gene pool (inbreeding) and makes for more genetic problems down the road? Are you so naive that you did not realize that?

The red ones come from dragons that originate from the Eyre Peninsula area of Australia, they occur naturally in abundance ( don't believe all thy hype you read about someone "creating something", our friends in Australia get a big kick out of how gullible and dumb some Americans and so called "breeders" are) NOTE: no one is changing the color in them, it is already their, so no need to inbreed to get it either ( but feel free to i if you feel you must)........... are you so naive that you did not realize that?

A few comments:

Pity these animals, for that is what they need, maybe these people are also the ones that would get a kick out of making human children suffer too?

They are not big breeders, they are mass and mill breeders and do not give a care about the animals or the owners that will raise them. I think a nice summary is the breeders that "trash for cash".

I am one that got disgusted with this industry after seeing the level that someone was stooping to in try to manipulate people, comments by others and also the the stalking they were doing to others. It is a sick, sick mind that is so obsessed with the dollars, they have to stoop to the level of a primal scum pool

Big healthy? yes, some produce big, healthy ones... yet we also know for a fact they produce whole clutches that had to be put down, died, are weak and do not make it to being adults, crooked backs, tails and other deformities that they have to be put down out of the egg..... Or pawned off to pet stores. Oh goodness, we are so advanced and proud now that we can take the very things that protected them to thrive and strip them away... yes, wonderful people and such a contribution to world they make!

Isn't it interesting that some are whitewashing the issues in the bearded dragon field to justify their actions, yet the people in the snakes industry have enough sense to know better? Tells you something about the mentality I think...... and BTW, NO experts or researchers have condoned the selling and spreading of adenovirus at all... read carefully and you all have fun trashing some more, I just thought I would pop in and see if some noses were still just up some butts so far they could still breathe and dancing on the strings

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

The red ones come from dragons that originate from the Eyre Peninsula area of Australia, they occur naturally in abundance ( don't believe all thy hype you read about someone "creating something", our friends in Australia get a big kick out of how gullible and dumb some Americans and so called "breeders" are) NOTE: no one is changing the color in them, it is already their, so no need to inbreed to get it either ( but feel free to i if you feel you must)........... are you so naive that you did not realize that?

A few comments:

Pity these animals, for that is what they need, maybe these people are also the ones that would get a kick out of making human children suffer too?

They are not big breeders, they are mass and mill breeders and do not give a care about the animals or the owners that will raise them. I think a nice summary is the breeders that "trash for cash".

I am one that got disgusted with this industry after seeing the level that someone was stooping to in try to manipulate people, comments by others and also the the stalking they were doing to others. It is a sick, sick mind that is so obsessed with the dollars, they have to stoop to the level of a primal scum pool

Big healthy? yes, some produce big, healthy ones... yet we also know for a fact they produce whole clutches that had to be put down, died, are weak and do not make it to being adults, crooked backs, tails and other deformities that they have to be put down out of the egg..... Or pawned off to pet stores. Oh goodness, we are so advanced and proud now that we can take the very things that protected them to thrive and strip them away... yes, wonderful people and such a contribution to world they make!

Isn't it interesting that some are whitewashing the issues in the bearded dragon field to justify their actions, yet the people in the snakes industry have enough sense to know better? Tells you something about the mentality I think...... and BTW, NO experts or researchers have condoned the selling and spreading of adenovirus at all... read carefully and you all have fun trashing some more, I just thought I would pop in and see if some noses were still just up some butts so far they could still breathe and dancing on the strings

I think those that are "whitewashing" these issues are going to be shot down off of their high horses pretty soon. All it takes is a few people to stand up for what is right. Now is that time folks. Its time for ALL of you who love and care for these animals, to do whats right.

Viva la revolution!!! ^_^ hehe

 

[Valley Dragons]

The red ones come from dragons that originate from the Eyre Peninsula area of Australia, they occur naturally in abundance ( don't believe all thy hype you read about someone "creating something", our friends in Australia get a big kick out of how gullible and dumb some Americans and so called "breeders" are) NOTE: no one is changing the color in them, it is already their, so no need to inbreed to get it either ( but feel free to i if you feel you must)........... are you so naive that you did not realize that?

A few comments:

Pity these animals, for that is what they need, maybe these people are also the ones that would get a kick out of making human children suffer too?

They are not big breeders, they are mass and mill breeders and do not give a care about the animals or the owners that will raise them. I think a nice summary is the breeders that "trash for cash".

I am one that got disgusted with this industry after seeing the level that someone was stooping to in try to manipulate people, comments by others and also the the stalking they were doing to others. It is a sick, sick mind that is so obsessed with the dollars, they have to stoop to the level of a primal scum pool

Big healthy? yes, some produce big, healthy ones... yet we also know for a fact they produce whole clutches that had to be put down, died, are weak and do not make it to being adults, crooked backs, tails and other deformities that they have to be put down out of the egg..... Or pawned off to pet stores. Oh goodness, we are so advanced and proud now that we can take the very things that protected them to thrive and strip them away... yes, wonderful people and such a contribution to world they make!

Isn't it interesting that some are whitewashing the issues in the bearded dragon field to justify their actions, yet the people in the snakes industry have enough sense to know better? Tells you something about the mentality I think...... and BTW, NO experts or researchers have condoned the selling and spreading of adenovirus at all... read carefully and you all have fun trashing some more, I just thought I would pop in and see if some noses were still just up some butts so far they could still breathe and dancing on the strings

Cheri! I'm so glad to see you enter into this argument! I was starting to miss all your snippy little comments. I admit - I was wrong to think that silkbacks were produced by inbreeding. I did a little more research and found out that they are produced in a similar way to superpastel ball pythons. I appologize for my hasty assumptions.

As far as your comments about color lines...yes , dragons have differing colors depending on where they live. But...how many leucistics, and glowing orange, and retina-searing reds do your really think are currently roaming the outback?

Jamie

 

[Valley Dragons]

genetics

I would like to know myself actually.

Straight from the Italian horse's mouth...

http://www.pogonavitticeps.it/intr_file/page0004.htm

These are the people that produced these animals. It explains the genetics.

Jamie

 

[Valley Dragons]

Jamie a question and just a question

Do you know and are you friends with Vicki Dachiu ?

Seems like another spokesperson has stepped up JMO

What does Vicky Dachiu have to do with this? Me - a spokesperson - LOL! I speak only for myself, Walker75. Are you a spokesperson? Or just someone who likes to speak up now and then when they feel like the majority will back them?

Jamie

 

[shadi11]

The dragons being a co-dom it would be similar to that of pastels. or the supers that is.. But in the future plans to cross with a trans. Your going to take something that possibly dont have inbreeding. and cross with a major inbred animal.. The silkbacks dont have enough change in care of them. Then add the trans on top of it.. It makes perfect sence huh..
Leatherbacks arent produced that often. so to have many unrelated doesnt seem totally possible.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Straight from the Italian horse's mouth...

http://www.pogonavitticeps.it/intr_file/page0004.htm

These are the people that produced these animals. It explains the genetics.

Jamie

Interesting, but still, what is the purpose of an animal without scales? Same goes for the Scaleless ball python(s) that some have hatched. Why would people continue breeding these animals? and then making them OPEN to the public for resale if they dont even know if this trait is good or bad for these animals in the long run.

I should then ask. DO they know if this trait Affects them Adversely? What are the details?

How do they shed? Do they get skin infections easier? Wouldnt people research these sorts of things first, before making them available? or allowing others to create these themselves? I just feel that they should not be widely available until all of this information is known and proper care can be given.

Im all for a new and interesting animal, but i care more about their overall health than making money, or seeing others make money off of these animals without knowing the entire story on them.

 

[Tere Salazar]

What does Vicky Dachiu have to do with this? Me - a spokesperson - LOL! I speak only for myself, Walker75. Are you a spokesperson? Or just someone who likes to speak up now and then when they feel like the majority will back them?

Jamie

Well, Vickie Dachiu obviously has to do with this, since her name is on the Italian breeder's Available page, and Vickie Dachiu says on her website that she got her dragons from Alessandro in Italy. If you look at the contact page on the Italian breeder's website, his name is Alessandro. Connect the dots yet?

 

[Valley Dragons]

Interesting, but still, what is the purpose of an animal without scales? Same goes for the Scaleless ball python(s) that some have hatched. Why would people continue breeding these animals? and then making them OPEN to the public for resale if they dont even know if this trait is good or bad for these animals in the long run.

I should then ask. DO they know if this trait Affects them Adversely? What are the details?

How do they shed? Do they get skin infections easier? Wouldnt people research these sorts of things first, before making them available? or allowing others to create these themselves? I just feel that they should not be widely available until all of this information is known and proper care can be given.

Im all for a new and interesting animal, but i care more about their overall health than making money, or seeing others make money off of these animals without knowing the entire story on them.

Agreed. I have the highest hopes that the people involved in this project will not make silkbacks available to the general public if the animals are sickly or overly difficult to care for. And besides - if they DID sell an animal that proved to be sickly and difficult to care for - it would not take long for sales to stop and the breeding project would more than likely end. I really don't see the general public buying these animals in mass anyway. Think about how much some of the ball python morphs go for. Now imagine what a scale-less lizard would go for. I am guessing that if you can actually AFFORD to plunk down that kind of cash, then you would more than likely be willing to care for this animal's special needs. I just don't see a bunch of stupid kids running around with silkbacks in their pockets.

Jamie