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Saladragon said:
Well, Vickie Dachiu obviously has to do with this, since her name is on the Italian breeder's Available page, and Vickie Dachiu says on her website that she got her dragons from Alessandro in Italy. If you look at the contact page on the Italian breeder's website, his name is Alessandro. Connect the dots yet?

This is not about connecting dots, lol. So what if the Dachiu's purchased from the Italian guy? What business is it of mine or yours, and what does that have to do with me being accused of being a "spokesperson?"

Jamie
 
shadi11 said:
The dragons being a co-dom it would be similar to that of pastels. or the supers that is.. But in the future plans to cross with a trans. Your going to take something that possibly dont have inbreeding. and cross with a major inbred animal.. The silkbacks dont have enough change in care of them. Then add the trans on top of it.. It makes perfect sence huh..
Leatherbacks arent produced that often. so to have many unrelated doesnt seem totally possible.

Okay, let me try to explain this a little better.

If you have some Co-Dom leatherbacks, and you breed them to normal dragons, you will get about 1/2 normal dragons and 1/2 leatherbacks. These Co-dom leatherbacks are the visible hets for the super from, silkbacks. So you can have as many lines of Co-dom leatherbacks going as you have normal dragons to cross them out with. Then you take a Co-dom leatherback from one line, and cross it to a Co-dom leatherback of another line. You can get the silkbacks from this breeding. So as long as you out-cross the Co-dom leathers with normals, and build your breeding lines from there, you will have minimal inbreeding of your animals. I hope that made more sense!

Jamie
 
CheriS said:
I just thought I would pop in and see if some noses were still just up some butts so far they could still breathe and dancing on the strings

I think you should look around yourself and see who your PLAYERS are now. Has anyone called or emailed Dachiu or the breeder from Rome and found out any FACTS or are you just ASSuming again? Sounds like just another personal attack on one certain breeder because the AV thread did not pan out 100% YOUR way.


Saladragon said:
I was just on the phone with Bobby Hill, and he had an excellent point.

Webslave--"Bobby, you have apparently become a loose cannon. Ever since your rep took a hit with the adenovirus fiasco, you are looking for a target, ANY target, to try to regain face."

From what I see, looking at the various forums, is another angle for bobby and others to attack Dachiu on. Who has who's nose up your butt now, Cheri? Still licking your wounds, Bobby? AV is a dead subject, so now it's time to move on and attack silkbacks and leatherbacks? Or is this all just to target Vicki?
 
mikey said:
I think you should look around yourself and see who your PLAYERS are now. Has anyone called or emailed Dachiu or the breeder from Rome and found out any FACTS or are you just ASSuming again? Sounds like just another personal attack on one certain breeder because the AV thread did not pan out 100% YOUR way.


Saladragon said:
I was just on the phone with Bobby Hill, and he had an excellent point.

Webslave--"Bobby, you have apparently become a loose cannon. Ever since your rep took a hit with the adenovirus fiasco, you are looking for a target, ANY target, to try to regain face."

From what I see, looking at the various forums, is another angle for bobby and others to attack Dachiu on. Who has who's nose up your butt now, Cheri? Still licking your wounds, Bobby? AV is a dead subject, so now it's time to move on and attack silkbacks and leatherbacks? Or is this all just to target Vicki?

I'm glad someone had the balls to come right out and say that! Bravo! :iagree:

Jamie
 
mikey said:
AV is a dead subject, so now it's time to move on and attack silkbacks and leatherbacks? Or is this all just to target Vicki?

Personally, I could care less about Vickie Dachiu. What I do care about is the dragons, and the things that us humans are inflicting upon them...intentionally, no less.

As for Adenovirus being a dead subject, you are partly correct. There's something dead from Adenovirus, but it's not the subject.

What everyone seems to forget is that regardless of what THEY want the status of the Adenovirus subject to be, there are some of us living it every day, watching dragons with this virus struggle, and watching our animals die because SOMEONE didn't think it was important. So please, go visit my freezer and tell Fiera how UNIMPORTANT and DEAD this subject is. I'm pretty sure she would disagree with you.
 
+ 39 340 1440800 Alessandro

+ 39 348 0838169 Laura

[email protected]

Our facilities are situated nearby Rome, Italy. For a quick contact we suggest you to send us an e-mail or to phone us (9.00-20.00 our time)

~Email:
[email protected]

~Call :
610 273 2873 (9am - 9pm EST)
or if the other line is busy - 610 273 3913


Please feel free to contact both parties and get the facts. Then we can talk the reality of this subject.(good or bad).. Have any of you tried to make contact?
 
Valley Dragons said:
Okay, let me try to explain this a little better.

If you have some Co-Dom leatherbacks, and you breed them to normal dragons, you will get about 1/2 normal dragons and 1/2 leatherbacks. These Co-dom leatherbacks are the visible hets for the super from, silkbacks. So you can have as many lines of Co-dom leatherbacks going as you have normal dragons to cross them out with. Then you take a Co-dom leatherback from one line, and cross it to a Co-dom leatherback of another line. You can get the silkbacks from this breeding. So as long as you out-cross the Co-dom leathers with normals, and build your breeding lines from there, you will have minimal inbreeding of your animals. I hope that made more sense!

Jamie

I honeslty dont need genetics explained to me.. I get them but taking this quote from the Dachius project page
Leatherbacks are dragons that have an absence or reduction of tubercles (rough scales) on the dragons back which give them a leathery appearance. There have been very few of these hatched in captivity; making these extremely rare. We occasionally hatch leatherbacks from a variety of our lines, but have not had success in reproducing the trait with the 'flukes' we've produced in the past.
The leather backs arent so easily produced..
Then you go to and add the trans in. which that you cant take and breed out to a normal we all know that. You would have to breed the trans to the silkbacks and then breed the same cross again. and hope you come up with a silkback trans.
 
I have the highest hopes that the people involved in this project will not make silkbacks available to the general public if the animals are sickly or overly difficult to care for. And besides - if they DID sell an animal that proved to be sickly and difficult to care for - it would not take long for sales to stop and the breeding project would more than likely end.

kinda like they stopped producing with the adenovirus huh? Sure sounds like a thumbs up plan to me.

The av subject may be dead where you see it but in all reality it is still alive and kicking. Just the breeders are going to do as they wish until they have major issues. As said back a few pages in reference to IBD in snakes
 
shadi11 said:
I honeslty dont need genetics explained to me.. I get them but taking this quote from the Dachius project page

The leather backs arent so easily produced..
Then you go to and add the trans in. which that you cant take and breed out to a normal we all know that. You would have to breed the trans to the silkbacks and then breed the same cross again. and hope you come up with a silkback trans.

Um..and your point is? If you had read anythings else, then you would have noticed that Mr. Italy has produced co-doms. This opens up a whole new ball game.

Jamie
 
Mikey wrote:
From what I see, looking at the various forums, is another angle for bobby and others to attack Dachiu on. Who has who's nose up your butt now, Cheri? Still licking your wounds, Bobby? AV is a dead subject, so now it's time to move on and attack silkbacks and leatherbacks? Or is this all just to target Vicki?

Wow, you just showed your true colors!!! Dead subject? You are kidding right?
That's what you are hoping people will believe so that the issue of breeders testing what their trying to sell us is DEAD!!!! Sorry dear, ain't gonna happen.


And Valley, if this is such a benign and natural occurrence, please point me in the right direction because the only place I've seen pictures of these pitiful creatures is on some breeders web site.....not random pic's taken of them in the wild.
 
whiskersmom said:
Mikey wrote:
And Valley, if this is such a benign and natural occurrence, please point me in the right direction because the only place I've seen pictures of these pitiful creatures is on some breeders web site.....not random pic's taken of them in the wild.

Whoa - hold your horses, missy! Lol, when did I ever claim that this is common in nature? Please post that quote for me so that I can see it! Obviously if this happened in the wild, the animal would probably have a hard time surviving. Just like when albinos are born in the wild, they are picked off by predators because they are easy to see. But I don't have predators in my house (well, not that are allowed to roam free anyway, lol)...so I don't really see it as a major problem.

Jamie
 
It hurts to look at the silkback on Diachu's website...eeek...poor thing looks miserable...like her scales were burnt off :( Sadly, these poor animals are the result of some kind of cruel laboratory experiment irresponsible breeders created....*sigh* What next....
 
mikey said:
I think you should look around yourself and see who your PLAYERS are now. Has anyone called or emailed Dachiu or the breeder from Rome and found out any FACTS or are you just ASSuming again? Sounds like just another personal attack on one certain breeder because the AV thread did not pan out 100% YOUR way.


Saladragon said:
I was just on the phone with Bobby Hill, and he had an excellent point.

Webslave--"Bobby, you have apparently become a loose cannon. Ever since your rep took a hit with the adenovirus fiasco, you are looking for a target, ANY target, to try to regain face."

From what I see, looking at the various forums, is another angle for bobby and others to attack Dachiu on. Who has who's nose up your butt now, Cheri? Still licking your wounds, Bobby? AV is a dead subject, so now it's time to move on and attack silkbacks and leatherbacks? Or is this all just to target Vicki?

Is AV a dead subject? Its not where I live, and hopefully other people also strongly disagree with you on this. Animals are still dying as a result of AV, so just because people aren't talking about it openly doesn't mean its forgotten.
I don't think this is an "attack" on anyone. Someone asked what people think of this morph, and people gave an opinion.
The question seems to be if Breeders may go to far sometimes in creating something "new" or "different", particularly if that "new or different" trait seriously alters the animal or its genetics. Are we creating Frankensteins, with unforeseen health problems and complications?
Any good industry is capable of self-policing and deciding for itself what it reputable. People are going to discuss these issues and they'll decide for themselves or collectively what the industry will tolerate and how far is to far.
Oh, and since it came up, I AM a Democrat.
 
mikey said:
+ 39 340 1440800 Alessandro

+ 39 348 0838169 Laura

[email protected]

Our facilities are situated nearby Rome, Italy. For a quick contact we suggest you to send us an e-mail or to phone us (9.00-20.00 our time)

~Email:
[email protected]

~Call :
610 273 2873 (9am - 9pm EST)
or if the other line is busy - 610 273 3913


Please feel free to contact both parties and get the facts. Then we can talk the reality of this subject.(good or bad).. Have any of you tried to make contact?

Okay. Obviously many people are repulsed by the sight of the silkback morph. But for crying out loud, people, make the effort to research this dragon before you judge the health, well-being, and genetics of this animal. The info to contact the breeders involved has been provided. I agree with what Mikey said above. I think it is really hard to carry on a decent debate when most of the people involved are forming opinions based on speculation alone.

Jamie
 
AxelMyBaby said:
It hurts to look at the silkback on Diachu's website...eeek...poor thing looks miserable...like her scales were burnt off :( Sadly, these poor animals are the result of some kind of cruel laboratory experiment irresponsible breeders created....*sigh* What next....

Oh, come off it. We are not talking about genetic engineering, gene splicing, frankenstein kind of stuff here...so much drama, lol!

Jamie
 
Valley Dragons wrote:
Whoa - hold your horses, missy! Lol, when did I ever claim that this is common in nature?

My bad....and I do apologize. You've never posted that they are common in nature but with all the lectures you have been giving, it just seemed that maybe you had seen something I had not seen.
So my question, once again, is (and still yet to be answered), why? Just because it can be done, doesn't always mean it should be done.
Now that was a rhetorical question....I'm not implying that you [Valley Dragons] are breeding these creatures, but I've been reading your opinions on this and I would like to know what you think. Why do it? It possibly can't be to better the species? Right? It's not to help them live longer lives? Right? Shoot, it's not even to make them prettier...so why do it?
I think I know why....they're different. And being that they are different, a higher price tag can be attached, plain and simple.
Which brings me back to Adeno. If every dragon is positive then no one would have to test. A lot of money would be saved there.....especially for the bigger breeders.

What a crock.......someone has gotten so big that they've forgotten what it is like to actually care. :shrug01:
 
whiskersmom said:
So my question, once again, is (and still yet to be answered), why? Just because it can be done, doesn't always mean it should be done.
Now that was a rhetorical question....I'm not implying that you [Valley Dragons] are breeding these creatures, but I've been reading your opinions on this and I would like to know what you think. Why do it? It possibly can't be to better the species? Right? It's not to help them live longer lives? Right? Shoot, it's not even to make them prettier...so why do it?

Why don't you get of your soapbox and find out the answers for yourself instead of running your piehole nonstop. Both breeders email's and phone numbers have been provided. Run with it and bring back some facts. Might be a eye opener. Or do you really want the facts. Rome is 7 hours ahead, if you call, by the way.
 
Why don't you get of your soapbox and find out the answers for yourself instead of running your piehole nonstop. Both breeders email's and phone numbers have been provided. Run with it and bring back some facts. Might be a eye opener. Or do you really want the facts. Rome is 7 hours ahead, if you call, by the way

Whatever......


but since you are all on the side of creating these poor things, why don't you just give me your reasoning? Or do you have a reason? Could it be that these are someone elses reasons and you are just going along with it?

You see, I know why I think this is wrong...I am asking you or Valley dragons why you think it's alright?
 
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