Bad Guy Snakes at Sunset - Michael Barrera - Sick Animals - Terrible Condition

[MrTPlush]

By the way, there is in fact controversy among expert keepers on the use of sand as a substrate.

Which I ship mostly due to impaction. A desert iguana does not eat live food so eating sand is not really of concern.

They have extensive experience shipping lizards and WC animals(also receiving) and fully expect them to know what effects there might be on my end. I seeked them for that information and went off what they gave me. I don't think these are general common sense things like the other thread you are referring to. That was common sense like you shouldn't keep the animal in a box all day.

More intensive care like lighting/enclosure size/etc. I expect the buyer to know.

 

[EdwardK]

I wanted the iguana to be returned back to them because they were so sure it was healthy. I was not happy with the animal I received and the fact it had impossible to miss mites on it(if one was examining it before shipping) showed they were careless before shipping the animal and very well could have missed other visual signs it was unhealthy.

Actually it can be very easy to miss the chiggers on a lizard without a through search of the lizard particularly if there are only a few. These mites seek out the thinnest skin areas which on a desert iguana tends to be in the pockets formed by the limbs close to the body and in the very tight folds around the head. Unlike mites in the Ophionyssus genus, these are immature chiggers and aren't going to go on walkabouts for egg laying so despite them being bright red, it can actually make them more difficult to find.

If you want to blame me for the animal dying you can go ahead and point the finger at Snakes at Sunset too.

Actually we can't... you had the lizard in your possession and once you determined it was sick, the care was on you regardless of any future resolution for your unhappiness. You had the final option for proper emergency supportive therapy and you made the choice to not seek it letting the animal suffer for several days.
Whether or not you think this is warranted it doesn't mean that you get to absolve yourself of the decision to not seek medical care.

some comments

Ed

 

[bcr229]

I also don't have experience with WC animals so I wasn't concerned early on when it seems I probably should have been.

I don't either but based on reading/research here and other forums, WC animals usually are not treated for internal parasites, and they may or may not be treated for external parasites before being sold depending on the vendor. Problems due to stress and dehydration are also common.

So, there's an excellent chance that you're buying a vet bill if you purchase a WC animal, which is why they're so cheap compared to a CBB or even a long-term captive critter.

 

[EdwardK]

Which I ship mostly due to impaction. A desert iguana does not eat live food so eating sand is not really of concern.

This is completely false. The live food component of their normal diet has been well established for more than 50 years (easily 1970)... Now if your choosing to not feed them live prey that is on you but live food is part of their normal diet. So as an argument that sand it safe because they don't eat live food, it is an unsupported argument.

They have extensive experience shipping lizards and WC animals(also receiving) and fully expect them to know what effects there might be on my end.

This I think is the problem here... the problem with any number of wild caught taxa is that they tend to avoid showing symptoms of ill health until it has become critical. This is well established in the peer reviewed literature as it impacts things like rates of predation and even mate choice. It is also a well known issue in captive husbandry known as "failure to thrive" (aka malaadaption syndrome) which is often attributed to incorrect diet but can also be due to stress. This is in part some of the things that could have been discovered with a vet visit. To a great extent this is why there is always a gamble on wild caught stuff as you can't know if there is more going wrong inside the animal until it is tested for or the animal reaches the point it cannot hide the symptoms.

some comments

Ed

 

[Skyefoxx]

To be honest, the major problem here sounds more like an issue with your inexperience with field collected animals then with Snakes at Sunset. I don't have a lot of experience with WC but I do know that purchasing one is a gamble. The seller can only guarantee so much not knowing the animal's origins or what it has been exposed to which is why all the animals I acquire are exclusively captive bred. If that animal was unfit to be sold, then I am not excusing them from shipping a sick animal (as mentioned I do not know what condition WC animals typically come in or what is expected by the buyer/seller in that regards). HOWEVER, it is also not their job to hold your hand because you are inexperienced with these types of animals especially if you were well informed it was WC. Any good keeper/pet owner should know that a sick animal needs to go to the vet. Period. The fact that I don't see any evidence of that is inexcusable. Hash out your issues with the seller afterward, make them pay for the vet bill, or come to an agreement on some other kind of reimbursement but don't let the animal suffer and die because you didn't like the condition it came in or because they didn't explicitly tell you to bring it there. They are not vets and even a vet can't give you a proper diagnosis over the phone.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

Lesson learned. As indicated earlier, this poor lizard was doomed from the get go. I would take whatever refund is offered and move on. Its a no win situation when they will not obligate themselves to pay for the shipping back.
It really does not matter because these business work on options that will always offer at least 50% less then what you paid. Take the 40 if its offered.

Consider yourself fortunate with that kind of loss. Find a more reputable supplier. It certainly would have been a more honorable approach to take care of it but then this operation has a bad history . You would think they would once in a while do the right thing. Apparently not !

 

[MrTPlush]

I have contacted multiple places listing desert iguanas on their website and the ones that have replied confirming they do treat for external and internal parasites. Just throwing that out there.

And no live food IS NOT a component of their necessary diet. There is a lot out there saying an adult desert iguana should definitely not have any live food in their diet.

The chiggers were very obvious.

Thanks for your opinions though.

 

[AllisonLeigh]

I have contacted multiple places listing desert iguanas on their website and the ones that have replied confirming they do treat for external and internal parasites. Just throwing that out there.

And no live food IS NOT a component of their necessary diet. There is a lot out there saying an adult desert iguana should definitely not have any live food in their diet.

The chiggers were very obvious.

Thanks for your opinions though.

You didn't buy from the other places, probably because Snakes at Sunset was cheaper right? If the other places treated for external/internal parasites, why didn't you buy from them? That's like me getting mad that McDonalds doesn't use local beef because the restaurant down the road does.

Also, I think Ed has forgotten more info than most people online have obtained in their lifetime (ie. When Ed makes a statement, even as an "opinion", I personally take it very seriously as he is not the type to state things he's not confident of. You could learn a lot for future purchases if you don't burn that bridge and you take his advice to heart).

 

[EdwardK]

One of the things that makes or breaks an argument about bad service etc on fauna is the honesty put out there by the person making the argument(s) as well as the evidence provided by both parties. If one party is insisting on incorrect information it can bring speculation about the rest of their claim.

And no live food IS NOT a component of their necessary diet. There is a lot out there saying an adult desert iguana should definitely not have any live food in their diet.

I suggest that you consult some accurate references on this topic... see for example A field guide to western reptiles and amphibians. Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 2003. which specifically lists insects, faecal material (their own) and carrion in addition to plant matter.

Also see for a second example Minnich, John E., and Vaughan H. Shoemaker. "Diet, behavior and water turnover in the desert iguana, Dipsosaurus dorsalis." American Midland Naturalist (1970): 496-509.

You have used a vague term here to try and get out of your insistence on relying on bad information and that is "necessary nutrition". Do you have any specific peer reviewed analysis of that nutrition? Did it take into any requirement for behavioral stimulation?? Without that analysis how can you claim it is or isn't "necessary"?

some comments

Ed

 

[EdwardK]

I have contacted multiple places listing desert iguanas on their website and the ones that have replied confirming they do treat for external and internal parasites. Just throwing that out there.
.

How about a list of those you contacted and the list of who they said they treat all of them.... instead of a claim that cannot be substantiated...?

some comments

Ed

 

[MrTPlush]

No, please stop with false speculation. Snakes at Sunset was not the cheapest.

My belief is they don't need live food(like many others) so there was no concern putting it on sand.

I have been given my full refund and I will not be speaking on thr matter unless it is legitimate questions. I will not respond to ridiculous speculation by others. The BOI is not for you to put words in my mouth or make up the story yourself.

 

[MrTPlush]

BigAppleHerps claims to treat internally and externally.

Regarding eating live food I am not arguing that in this BOI thread. That is way off topic. Feel free to PM if you'd like to further that conversation.

 

[EdwardK]

At the moment I have no need to speculate as I'm focused on what you have actually said and how it has changed when challenged.

No, please stop with false speculation. Snakes at Sunset was not the cheapest.

My belief is they don't need live food(like many others) so there was no concern putting it on sand.

I have been given my full refund and I will not be speaking on thr matter unless it is legitimate questions. I will not respond to ridiculous speculation by others. The BOI is not for you to put words in my mouth or make up the story yourself.

For me to put words in your mouth, you would have had to not say them... but the quotes I provided in the posts above show that you clearly did say them... and they were left in context.

This is a valid route of inquiry as one of the fundamental roots of the issue has been the question of suitable care both pre and post shipping and who knew what and we have confirmation that you were basing at least of some of your facts on bad information. Changing a claim of fact to a belief indicates that you are unable to justify the claim.

As for speculation, you have repeatedly presented the claims against the vendor as fact but when your claims of facts are shown to be an issue, you refuse to both accept that you were wrong in stating them as facts.

some comments

Ed

 

[MrTPlush]

Find me the direct quote where I said I took the lowest price. Not to mention with that the member seemed to be inferring I am cheap. I don't have time for that kind of false speculation.

 

[Lucille]

but there is no excuse his employees can't tell how seriously poor(and obvious) this iguana's health is.

If it was that obvious you should have taken it to the vet right away. They suggested heat, but you were there. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either it was seriously ill in which case you should have taken it to a vet immediately, or it was not, which means that it may have become ill in your care.

By the way, critters don't ingest sand only from eating live food. If they carry and drop some nice piece of greens or almost anything else, sand can stick to it and they can ingest it when they pick up the morsel and swallow it.

 

[snakesareawesome]

Mr. Johnson, nearly every BOI thread will be subjected to rigorous screening and questions. Unfortunately, if you search, you will soon see that one or both initial sides of a story are not the whole picture and often details are omitted or enhanced in some way or another.

As a side issue, Ed took the time to dig up some citations for you, if you feel he is wrong, then can you state which publications you based your opinion on? I think that might go a ways toward reassuring the reading audience that animals in your care will receive the very best, well researched care they can get. I don't have an opinion either way, so no dog in that fight.

 

[AllisonLeigh]

You didn't buy from the other places, probably because Snakes at Sunset was cheaper right? If the other places treated for external/internal parasites, why didn't you buy from them?

Since you're claiming I put words in your mouth, show me in the quote above where I stated that definitively that was your reasoning. I said "probably" and stated it as a question. Your defensive responses speak volumes. So, if you knew these other suppliers treated their animals AND were cheaper, why did you not go with them?

 

[AllisonLeigh]

Find me the direct quote where I said I took the lowest price. Not to mention with that the member seemed to be inferring I am cheap. I don't have time for that kind of false speculation.

I don't believe looking for a lower price makes someone cheap. I was a buyer/negotiator for years and I assure you some of the richest business owners demand to pay the lowest price possible. It's being frugal, not cheap, I was suggesting that maybe the other suppliers pricing would be higher, because they had to absorb the cost of the parasite treatment. Wanting a good deal doesn't make someone cheap, it makes them smart! Provided they've made sure they are comparing apples to apples...

 

[MrTPlush]

Since you're claiming I put words in your mouth, show me in the quote above where I stated that definitively that was your reasoning. I said "probably" and stated it as a question. Your defensive responses speak volumes. So, if you knew these other suppliers treated their animals AND were cheaper, why did you not go with them?

No, your question was wrong and fishing for something. There was absolutely nothing to hint I went with the cheapest price. Saying probably is ridiculous when you have nothing to back it up. My defensive response doesn't speak volumes. I am going to be defensive when someone comes into a BOI and starts making ridiculous "probably" statements that are aimed at me that can't be backed up. Your comment that you disguised as a question should have never been made.

 

[AllisonLeigh]

No, your question was wrong and fishing for something. There was absolutely nothing to hint I went with the cheapest price. Saying probably is ridiculous when you have nothing to back it up. My defensive response doesn't speak volumes. I am going to be defensive when someone comes into a BOI and starts making ridiculous "probably" statements that are aimed at me that can't be backed up. Your comment that you disguised as a question should have never been made.

As I explained, the "probably cheaper" was based on the understanding that the seller would have to absorb the costs of the tests, causing the animal to be more expensive. You're making a lot of assumptions about my intentions, while telling me to stop making assumptions about yours.