Inquiry Sunshine Serpents

[poomwah]

So you are unhappy with your purchase. Whatever the reason you are unhappy with your purchase. The reason doesn't matter.

Did you ask to return her?

Tell the buyer you wanted to return her and get your purchase price back?

What did the seller say?

The reason absolutely matters. If a customer changes their mind for some reason, that's there tough luck. There shouldn't even be a return allowed at that point. If the snake is not what was reasonably expected , then that's a different story.
I told the seller about my concerns that the snake was so small, he said it was fine.
Like I said (and you say I don't listen) He and I disagree, there's nothing I can do about it now.
You guys always jump on this solution of returning the snake. It's like a programmed response. send it back, send it back, send it back.
Forget about the stress of shipping the animal, just send it back. Forget the expense of shipping the snake, just send it back.
You seem to like to point out that I have concerns about how my money is spent. I bought a snake that I feel was overpriced for what I received... your solution is for me to spend money to ship it back. Then ask for a refund on my purchase price. So I would have paid 50 for shipping here, 50 for shipping back. Have 100 dollars invested in nothing by the time its over. At least with the snake, I have something to show for the money I overpayed.
So please, be realistic Magic, how is returning the snake a reasonable solution?

 

[Magic]

If a customer changes their mind....

True. Buyers remorse stinks, doesn't it?

But you're not claiming buyers remorse. You're claiming that a seller who has had other colubrid breeders AND customers vouch for him, sold you a snake that is overpriced and undersized.

You are quite possibly irreparably damaging that sellers business and livelihood. All because you seem to think that your snake, once more a snake you desperately loved and had to have, is now not a good size.

The BOI does work. It works because the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. You haven't even slightly backed up your claim. You keep saying that he never stated his TOS, well the seller says his terms are on his website. You said you saw the ad up without any mention of the no lone female clause, yet no screenshots were provided.
You made claims that you never tried being rude or disrespectful, yet your actions reek of both.


Bottom line? If you were sent a snake that was misrepresented? The value of sending it back would be clear to you. But, since paying to send back that female isn't something you want to do or are even considering...that speaks loud and clear.

And by the way? This is the BOI. You can't just claim that you've gotten anonymous pm's and people over at KS that agree with you that the yearling is undersized. Post names and proof or don't bring it up.

And if you don't like the atmosphere here at fauna... There is a back button. I myself am renewing my paid membership as soon as it's up.

 

[poomwah]

I know you like to throw that term around, its a common one used on the BOI . Buyers remorse. You ask me if buyers remorse stinks. then go on to admit I'm not claiming buyers remorse. so why bring it up except to try to confuse the issue.
here you go with the one sidedness again.
you point out that "has had other colubrid breeders AND customers vouch for him" while true, you conveniently left out the part that OTHER COLUBRID BREEDERS also said it was small. Why do you ignore that? Why is it that the ONLY people that matter are the ones that agree with you. You complain that I don't listen to those that agree with you.
Someone comes in here thinking the snake is too small. The camp is divided between the snake being normal size and the snake being unusually small. Who is going to take that as, Oh I was totally wrong, the snake is the perfect size.
The burden of proof lies on the customer, that's great, because the ad is already down, little hard to post a screen shot. HOwever, since you like to say I don't listen, you can take a page from your own book. Look back to where discern posted how many ads he saw where nothing was said about this.
If I as sent a snake that was misrepresented the value of sending it back would be clear to me? It speaks loud and clear that I'm not an idiot. It speaks loud and clear that I understand the value of a hard earned dollar. It speaks loud and clear that I have studied mathematics. I paid 65 dollars plus 50 dollars shipping for a snake. If I spend 50 dollars to ship it back, and get a refund on my 65 dollars, I have spent 100 dollars and have NOTHING. So, the choice you are saying should have clear value is : spend 115 and have a snake that was misrepresented or spend 100 dollars and have NOTHING. Are you seriously saying that you would choose the latter?
As far as the comments about the anonymous people on other forums, Harold already pointed that out last night, and I've ceased to mention them, and since have only referred to this actual thread.
Its not the atmosphere at fauna that troubles me at all. It's what people like you do when someone doesn't agree with you.

 

[poomwah]

Daniel,
Whenever you do read this, in regards to Magic's preaching about my rudeness and disrespect. If you feel I was rude or disrespected you, for that I do apologize.
I trust that nothing I have done has had or will have any impact on your business or livelihood. If anything people will remember Magic's militant posts and might bring you more business.

 

[poomwah]

burden of proof about not being made aware of TOS???
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=457093&page=2
post 12

If that's not good enough for magic
a current example

NOTHING on that page says you have to buy a male to get that female.
But Magic will say the TOS are on the website. So, a prosepective customer has to go to the web site, weed through a couple menus until they find the TOS

which says that hatchlings are usually sold as pairs. It says nothing about yearlings being required to be purchased as males or pair. It does say that females are generally higher priced, not that they ca't be purchased separately. So OBVIOUSLY it was not a terms of service issue.
There is your burden of proof on that one Magic.
Now, on to the next, the size.
The picture from the ad did not look like a snake that was only as big around as a pencil.
In regards to the size:
Walter : the girth on the little fella you have looks fine
in regards to the weight for age :By their first birthday this September, they will be in the range of yours or so. Plausible, but on the lower end.
DavidBeard :that snake is unusually small for its age
RossCA: Looking back at that picture of your snake, I don't blame you for being disappointed with the size
Magic: I have several leucistics that are her exact age and her exact size, even two from my clutch that are smaller. You got what you paid for.

So, while there were a plethora of people saying Dan is a great guy.
there was actually VERY little saying that the snake was a size that would be expected for its age.

So you see magic, you want to go on about how I don't listen to what the customers and breeders on here say. BUT....there is more on this thread to support the snakes small size than there is to support it being the expected size.
You said the snake wasn't small.
The closest thing that was actually posted on your side of the debate was that Walter said the girth looked fine, but as an example expects his snakes to be that size almost at almost a year younger.
Shannon stated size doesn't matter, while an excellent point most of the time, it doesn't lend weight to either side of the debate.
David obviously said the snake was small.
Ross agreed he would have been disappointed by the size of the snake.

 

[poomwah]

MAJOR typo, I'm REALLY sorry everyone. when I said that walter expected his snakes to be that size almost a year younger I meant almost HALF a year younger, I'm really sorry for that mix up

 

[DavidBeard]

Anybody arguing that the snake Seth purchased is of "normal" size for a 2012 hatchling is either blindly supporting Sunshine Serpents or enjoys starving their snakes. Baby colubrids, especially North American ratsnakes have VERY fast metabolisms, and feeding appropriately sized meals 2x a week is not considered overfeeding by most people. I've had snakes grow larger than Seth's snake in 6 months on this regimen.....he has every right to be upset and disappointed. He bought a snake whose growth is likely stunted.

 

[poomwah]

Thank you VERY much David

 

[DavidBeard]

You're welcome. I'm actually quite astonished at the amount of unreasonable flak people are giving you on here. You've been very professional & level-headed in your discussions & I feel as though you got the short end of the stick (no pun intended).

 

[poomwah]

Thanks again David, its nice to hear that. I tried to be decent about it, but I guess I've learned not to disagree with the experts lest I be marked a bad customer and have my actions reek of rudeness and disrespect, and be accused of choosing not to listen to the one person who knows more than everyone else.
I appreciate everyone's input . Many valid points were brought up. I agree that all snakes are different, that was a very good point. But there is also a range of size for the age of a particular animal that is expected, and this one was obviously below that.
That combined with the hassle I had to go through to get the originally offered deal, which I still can't understand how honoring the original deal is going above and beyond and breaking TOS for now good reason. You offer an item or product or service for a specified amount. Then you provide the item/product/service for a specified amount. That's normal, equitable business. That is not above and beyond and shouldn't be glorified as such, especially when the customer has to go through a hassle just to get the original deal honored. He made a deal, tried to go back on the deal, then fixed it by honoring the original deal, END of story on that one.
The funniest thing is, before Magic developed this bad opinion of me, and before he started praising SS for going above and beyond by giving me a "special deal" he specifically said " Sunshine forgot to mention it in his ad. It happens. He's gone on now to make his buyer happy. It's all good" So again, HOW on earth is that going above and beyond?
If I go to mcdonalds and they offer me a burger for a certain price, I get my money out and they tell me, oh, we want you to buy this burger instead of that one, or buy two burgers, then after I question it, and ask others opinions, THEN they give me the original burger for the price agreed, am I going to go around telling everyone, Hey, that guy behind the counter really went above and beyond for me.
And I'm sorry for those that think size doesn't matter in a reptile. I totally agree with you Shannon that health and lineage are more important than size. BUT, like I said, I paid more for a larger snake for a very specific reason. I didn't want to get personal about my physical problems on here, but I've broken almost every finger at least once, and sprained every finger at least once. I also have arthritis. I'm going to my orthopedist again soon as my family doctor suspects I also have carpal tunnel. As a result of these issues, it is VERY difficult for me to pick up a very small snake. I don't have the coordination or feeling necessary to confidently pick up an animal that small. An animal the size of an average yearling north american rat snake is no problem for me. I need assistance from my daughter to get the smaller snakes out. And she is not experienced enough to deal with a year and a half old rat snake that has had a very limited amount of handling. I totally understand that breeders don't have time to handle their snakes regularly, so I was expecting a snake that needed some work and time to get accustomed to being handled and I was completely content working with a yearling that hadn't been handled much, I actually looked forward to, but not one this small. So now, I have to wait until the snake gets quite a bit older before I can safely handle it. Obviously that is going to mean that much more work with the snake once the time comes. That is specifically why I paid more for the yearling than what he was asking for the hatchlings. So while yes, I did get a snake of good lineage, I could have got a hatchling of the same quality for a lot less. Not to mention, if I was going to have the issues of dealing with a small snake, not only could I have saved the money by gettting a hatchling, I could have also saved a lot of trouble by working with a hatchling instead of an older snake that wasn't used to being handled. Not to mention Davids excellent point that the snakes growth may very well be stunted.
So, while size may not be important to many, in this case it had relevance.
When I first started this thread it was because I thought what happened seemed odd.
But Discern brought up some great points about SS's ads and their ambiguity about the lone female rule. The points brought up about my buying before getting answers were valid, I really should have been more diligent. But that also got me thinking. While I was waiting for those answers I was told I had to buy her THAT day, or she was going to a reptile show the next day. We fell in love from a picture that was sent. And didn't want to risk losing her. We didn't realize that the picture was deceptive, so much so that we had to contact Daniel to make sure we got the right snake.
When I first mentioned the size of the animal on here, I was questioning whether it was small, trying to convince myself that I was wrong. But to be completely honest, my opinion on size has been heavily reinforced by this thread.
The opinion that has changed is that I can no longer say that I would recommend Sunshine Serpents.

 

[DavidBeard]

After seeing how this whole transaction was handled, I would not recommend or do business with Sunshine Serpents either. The bait & switch tactics and obvious lack of disclosure when it comes to their livestock & how they are raised (with an unusually small amount of food) leaves more than a sour taste in my mouth.

A NA Ratsnake hatched in 2012 should be nearing adult size or very close to it now......that snake looks to be around 6-8 months old, which is just crazy to me. You would almost have to go out of your way to NOT feed the animal to maintain such a small size. If you call yourself a breeder and have so many animals that you cannot feed them sufficiently, then you are everything that is wrong with this hobby in my opinion.

I am not kidding that when I read the responses from the people who said that snake looked "normal" and its size was no big deal, I literally sat with my mouth agape at the audacity and apparent ignorance being displayed. Everyone who said any part of this transaction was OK is also on my Do-Not-Buy-From-List as well.

 

[DavidBeard]

Also, now that I have gone back re-examined the pictures posted by Seth......the picture from Sunshine's website appears to be a different snake than the one Seth actually received. Look closely at the head scales on the snakes in both pictures......SS's picture has a clear lack of black marking on the head scales, while Seth's picture shows an abundance of black markings on the head scales.

If that indeed is not the same snake.....this just reached a whole other level of debauchery.

 

[poomwah]

I took the picture in direct sunlight and tried to get the angle as close as possible for comparison. We asked Daniel if it was the same snake because we didn't think it was. He assured me its the same snake.
It doesn't look the same to us. you also have to love that big colorless blotch on her snout that conveniently doesn't show in the picture.

 

[poomwah]

I keep looking at the sunshine picture, the pictures I took the day she got here, and the actual snake itself. I can't say 100 percent either way that it is or isn't the same snake. All I can say with absolute certainty is that the picture they provided was definitely not an accurate or honest depiction of the animal.

 

[RichsBallPythons]

Some have to remember, in larger collections, Animals are not fed as heavily as the smaller hobbyist. Therefore a yearling in a collection of 300+ wont be as well fed as one in a 1-100 sized collection.

Also Genetics will play a role on how the snakes will grow and if its hit a growth spurt yet.

 

[poomwah]

Some have to remember, in larger collections, Animals are not fed as heavily as the smaller hobbyist. Therefore a yearling in a collection of 300+ wont be as well fed as one in a 1-100 sized collection.

Also Genetics will play a role on how the snakes will grow and if its hit a growth spurt yet.

Excellent point Rich, and there is no disputing what you have said.
In this case however, its a bit extreme, we aren't taking a few grams here or there, we are talking about a snake drastically below average. Something that should have been disclosed.

 

[DISCERN]

I think it is the same snake, IMO. I looked at both pics, and the markings on the bottom of the lip area, and then, on the back of the neck, do match. As far as the little markings on the head scales in Seth's pic, those may have formed later on. Northern pines have that happen, especially females, as babies, where they have small amount of markings on their heads scales, but then, as time goes on, the markings become bigger and bigger. I have no idea though if the same thing happens with rats like this, so someone who has experience with this can hopefully chime in.

Looking at the other areas I am able to view, I think it is the same snake, IMO.

 

[DavidBeard]

Some have to remember, in larger collections, Animals are not fed as heavily as the smaller hobbyist. Therefore a yearling in a collection of 300+ wont be as well fed as one in a 1-100 sized collection.

Also Genetics will play a role on how the snakes will grow and if its hit a growth spurt yet.

If someone's collection is so large as to prevent them from providing necessary food to promote average growth, then a complete re-examination of the size of said collection or the amount of food offered needs to be done.

We are not talking about a miniscule amount of size discrepancies here.....that snake is roughly 4-5 times smaller than it should be.

 

[poomwah]

I think it is the same snake, IMO. I looked at both pics, and the markings on the bottom of the lip area, and then, on the back of the neck, do match. As far as the little markings on the head scales in Seth's pic, those may have formed later on. Northern pines have that happen, especially females, as babies, where they have small amount of markings on their heads scales, but then, as time goes on, the markings become bigger and bigger. I have no idea though if the same thing happens with rats like this, so someone who has experience with this can hopefully chime in.

Looking at the other areas I am able to view, I think it is the same snake, IMO.

Rat snakes do that to Discern, their markings and coloration can change. If that's what happened in this case, it goes to show how inaccurate the picture depicts the actual snake. A dealer should not use an old, more appealing photo to try to sell an animal.

 

[poomwah]

If someone's collection is so large as to prevent them from providing necessary food to promote average growth, then a complete re-examination of the size of said collection or the amount of food offered needs to be done.

We are not talking about a miniscule amount of size discrepancies here.....that snake is roughly 4-5 times smaller than it should be.

very good point also.