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Inquiry Sunshine Serpents

I just went back through my emails.
That sushine pic was posted on Jan 22
We received Belt Loop (long story) on Feb 19
I really doubt she lost that much color in that time. Anything is possible of course, but according to sunshine, this line of yellow rat snakes is supposed to get brighter and more colorful as they age.
It's also worth pointing out that she looks smaller in the picture I posted than in the original picture even though she had almost another month to grow.
I'm not saying that it's not the same snake, those spots could have darkened, the lines on their sides become more prominent as they age. But either way, its obvious not an accurate representation of the animal .
We fell in love with that picture, that's why I came on here in the first place asking what you guys/gals thought about the deal instead of saying "this guy is switching the deal on me, forget him" That picture struck us so strongly that we "had" to have her.
Anyone seen the movie "The Croods", remember the character Belt, that did the little dramatic "dah dah DAHHHHH". That's where the belt part of her name came from, because when we saw her color, her presence, my wife thought she just jumped right of the screen "DAH DAH DAHHHHHH"....
and then we opened the box

yay
 
Seth, please take another photo not holding the snake, but posed showing as much head to tail exposure as possible.
 
it was so easy with our pine from sam and meagan, and our bull from Jason.
They were expected size for their age AND they looked even better in person than in the pictures.
 
:shootfoot
LauraB said:
Seth, please take another photo not holding the snake, but posed showing as much head to tail exposure as possible.
Click to expand...

a slightly overhead picture inside a clear tote ok? There's no way I'm going to get her to sit still on top of something , lol. She's super speedy
 
poomwah said:
:shootfoot

a slightly overhead picture inside a clear tote ok? There's no way I'm going to get her to sit still on top of something , lol. She's super speedy
Click to expand...

and to make sure you know what I mean, I don't mean the pic I posted with the deli cup, lol, Meaning if the one I suggested is ok, I'll get her out and take a pic.
 
DavidBeard said:
If someone's collection is so large as to prevent them from providing necessary food to promote average growth, then a complete re-examination of the size of said collection or the amount of food offered needs to be done.

We are not talking about a miniscule amount of size discrepancies here.....that snake is roughly 4-5 times smaller than it should be.
Click to expand...

Snakes dont all grow at same rate and never will. So basing what you see or have experienced may not be the same thing in this case. This snake could have a slower metabolism then other colubrids resulting is slower growth rate.


And what I was saying as in well fed over not as well fed ie maintenance fed. Large collections will feed them enough to keep them healthy and fed once weekly, where small timers will feed maybe 1 larger meal or multiple in a week thus usually resulting in a snake who grows faster.
 
I can only judge the practices of Sunshine Serpents based off what I see from their customers.....and Seth being one of them in this case.

I understand and am aware of what you're saying, Rich.....but again, we are talking about a whole different level with this situation. If this snakes' genetics or feeding schedule or whatever the case may be caused it to be drastically smaller than normal, should that information not be disclosed to prospective buyers? I sincerely hope you don't reply with something like "Well, maybe he has a large collection and didn't have the time to disclose every detail about the snake."
 
RichsBallPythons said:
Snakes dont all grow at same rate and never will. So basing what you see or have experienced may not be the same thing in this case. This snake could have a slower metabolism then other colubrids resulting is slower growth rate.


And what I was saying as in well fed over not as well fed ie maintenance fed. Large collections will feed them enough to keep them healthy and fed once weekly, where small timers will feed maybe 1 larger meal or multiple in a week thus usually resulting in a snake who grows faster.
Click to expand...

I agree that the snake is very small for its age. I also agree that snake vary greatly in genetics and metabolism. I totally agree that ALL animals exhibit variance in their growth rates.
Daniel fed the snake every 7 to 10 days. That is his choice. The snake was definitely not starved.
However, there is an expected size for a given breed an age. A general range. And if the animal falls well without that generally expected range, it should be disclosed openly. Dealers don't hesitate to post if the snake is larger than expected for its age. They'll tell you that up front. Why shouldn't it be the same if its quite small for its age as well.
 
DavidBeard said:
I can only judge the practices of Sunshine Serpents based off what I see from their customers.....and Seth being one of them in this case.

I understand and am aware of what you're saying, Rich.....but again, we are talking about a whole different level with this situation. If this snakes' genetics or feeding schedule or whatever the case may be caused it to be drastically smaller than normal, should that information not be disclosed to prospective buyers? I sincerely hope you don't reply with something like "Well, maybe he has a large collection and didn't have the time to disclose every detail about the snake."
Click to expand...

This brings up another one. Why is it so often we see "well, the buyer should have made sure before they purchased" Why is it not the responsibility of the buyer to provide full disclosure. Why should a buyer have to ask such a question as 'is she an average size for her age or is she unusually small"
not to mention, Magic has already made it out like I asked Daniel too many question as it is. Not to mention, when I did want specifics, I was hurried to make a decision. Duped into a purchase by a gorgeous picture, which may very well be the actual snake. However, the simple fact that one has to look closely, or compare angles, or look for certain markings, all of these things prove that the picture was misleading. If the picture was accurate, there'd be absolutely no doubt, it would be obvious that it was the same snake.
 
and why on earth did it ad the shooting in the foot smiley when I quoted Laura's post :p
weird. Ironic since I basically shot myself in the foot by question a "fan favorite"
 
Also, it should be noted that just because someone is feeding a snake every 7-10 days does not mean it will grow sufficiently.....if the snake is fed nothing but pinky mice the entire time, and no gradual increase of prey size is done, then of course you will end up with a snake that is smaller than normal.
 
DavidBeard said:
Also, it should be noted that just because someone is feeding a snake every 7-10 days does not mean it will grow sufficiently.....if the snake is fed nothing but pinky mice the entire time, and no gradual increase of prey size is done, then of course you will end up with a snake that is smaller than normal.
Click to expand...

another excellent point I hadn't considered. Pinky mice to seem a bit small for "typical" 17 month old north american rat snake.
That seems like small prey item for a 17 month old corn snake.
and before Magic jumps on here and picks one little detail to fixate on and ignore all the relevant information, yes Magic, I know that corn snakes are a type of rat snake.
 
a slightly overhead picture inside a clear tote ok?
Click to expand...
Yes, that would be good. Deli cup shots are good, but insufficient to compare with the original advertised shot.

Ironic since I basically shot myself in the foot by question a "fan favorite"
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you mean by "question a 'fan favorite' ", but don't worry about missing toes from an unintended, misdirected gun shot :)

I've followed this thread from the beginning and tend to lean toward a small 2012 common yellow rat ... just want to see a better whole body shot, if it's acceptable and obtainable.
 
I'll snap a few.
by fan favorite, I mean that everyone likes sunshine serpents, and there are a lot of people on fauna, Magic is a good example, that like to run people down if they say anything against the more popular breeders.
As far as the toes, with my finger problems, the last thing I need is to blow off a toe :p and I pride myself in safe firearms handling, LOL
pics soon
 
Well, I used the same camera I used for the other pics. The other pics were in direct sunlight since that's what Daniel said he takes outdoor pictures. In the pic I posted, she looks 100 percent color wise , like she does in real life.
Well, my wife is a photographer and suggested I tried her lights that she uses. So we got a couple out, and I got this picture

much better looking than in real life. so if I were the type to try to sell her, I'd know how to make her look better.
Now... back to the size isssue:
George - white sided eastern rat
sorry for the blurry pic, had to take the pic quickly, he wanted out


So Belt Loop- hatched august or september 2012 (don't know exact hatch date) = 17 or 18 months fed every 7 to 10 days live or FT pinkie, currently eating mice pinkies (hasn't eaten for me yet, just going by what Daniel told me) 19.3 inches long, 49 grams
George - hatched July 2012 = 19 months, fed once every wednesday, currently eating one FT rat pup 39.5 inches 261 grams
yes, there are variances in snakes, and in different breeds of north american rat snakes, but for a 1 to 2 month older snake to be 20 inches longer and 212 grams heavier? come on, you can't ignore that.
 
and to put things in perspective. The good pic I posted of Belt Loop makes her look not only brighter and more colorful, but bigger.
If you scale the picture so its the same as the one with George (look at the frosted circles on the bottom of the tub for size comparison)
look how much bigger those circles are than Belt, but how easily George could cover them up
So, yes, there are variances between yellow and black rats, and yes there are variances within the yellow rat species at a given age, but not THIS much.

Is there still anyone that thinks this snake is "normal" size for its age and that I shouldn't have been disappointingly surprised or that I shouldn't have expected it to be larger?
 
I have had no business with the company mentioned, but I can say that you seem to have glossed over something he said on the website. "Lone females, if available, will generally be higher in price" Explains the high price you were complaining about. You may have paid too much for it (I have no idea the prices on these guys), but that is your fault as the buyer. As for size: It may be a little small, but it is healthy. You were never told the size of the animal, and you bought it anyway. If he had told you the size of the animal and it was untrue, then it would be an issue. Here is a summary of how I see it: You asked about an animal and after some work you purchased it. There is no issue now that you have the snake. This doesn't matter anymore. You were in love with the snake pictured, which this snake appears to be. You never received an answer about size, and it is possible he missed that. We all make mistakes. He never told you anything about the animal that was untrue. You got the animal and decided it was too small. This shouldn't be an issue, it is the one you fell in love with. Accept the snake you love. Quit acting like he is a terrible person.
 
mr.dude said:
I have had no business with the company mentioned, but I can say that you seem to have glossed over something he said on the website. "Lone females, if available, will generally be higher in price" Explains the high price you were complaining about. You may have paid too much for it (I have no idea the prices on these guys), but that is your fault as the buyer. As for size: It may be a little small, but it is healthy. You were never told the size of the animal, and you bought it anyway. If he had told you the size of the animal and it was untrue, then it would be an issue. Here is a summary of how I see it: You asked about an animal and after some work you purchased it. There is no issue now that you have the snake. This doesn't matter anymore. You were in love with the snake pictured, which this snake appears to be. You never received an answer about size, and it is possible he missed that. We all make mistakes. He never told you anything about the animal that was untrue. You got the animal and decided it was too small. This shouldn't be an issue, it is the one you fell in love with. Accept the snake you love. Quit acting like he is a terrible person.
Click to expand...

You have some interesting points, and I appreciate your post. I did see where his TOS said that about lone females generally being higher price. That is actually irrelevant. The price I am talking about is not about the cost difference between male and female, its about the cost difference between hatchling and yearling. I don't mind paying more for a female. The issue was about offering the female then not wanting to sell her once he had males come available.
As far as the size "a little small" . did you look at the comparison pictures. Have you read about the snakes actual size and weight. The snake is not a little small, it is unexpectedly and shockingly small.
We fell in love with a picture of the animal, a picture that was so inaccurate that some people questioned if it was even the snake. We were in love with what we were expecting to get, not what we actually got. So there is indeed an issue still.
The snake was so much smaller than would be normally expected that it should have been openly disclosed from the beginning. Even though we didn't wait to purchase until getting the information asked for... again, we were put on the spot and told we had to buy her THAT day if we wanted her. We weren't given time to wait for any more info. My fault for believing in the picture and trusting the snake would be not only what we expected but what the average person would expect as well. It's not the snake we fell in love with. The snake in the picture is vivid and bright, and almost jumps off the screen. The snake in real life is very bland by comparison. And YES, it makes a big difference that the snake as big around as a pencil.
I'm not saying he is a bad person, or a bad businessman. I'm saying THIS was a bad transaction. He obviously has a lot of experience and a HUGE following. That speaks volumes about him. But as you said, everyone makes mistakes. In this case, he made a few by the way he misrepresented the animal with an inaccurate photo. He made a mistake by changing the deal after it was made. and he made a mistake by not disclosing that the snake was closer to wild caught size than it is to what is generally expected from a CB.
Not a terrible person, just a terrible situation.

I appreciate your opinion on this and I'm sorry that I disagree
 
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