Sunshinedragons

[whiskersmom]

I have some questions I need answered but first, I need to tell the whole story for a very good reason; I believe everyone needs to know about what I just experienced.

When Wendy from Neverland Dragons posted on the net about her ordeal with Adenovirus, I became concerned and did a little researching to find out if one of my dragons, bought from Sunshinedragons.com, was related to any of the dragons they had bought from Dragons by Nature. I found out that my dragons mother, Pyro had been.
I emailed Sunshine on Sept. 14, 2006 to ask if they were testing their dragons, especially Pyro and received a response saying that they would be, to please email them in a couple of weeks to remind them to tell me. I did so, on Oct. 6th. On Oct. 11th I received an email stating that they "no longer have Pyro" Not that they had sold her, just didn't have her. The rest of the email goes on to say a whole lot of nothing in way of testing results.I received two more emails that, again said nothing about the results but down played the seriousness of this virus. In hindsight, this should have been a red flag for me.
However, I responded to one, stating my dragon's stats (ie., weight/ length and my vets comment on how he was the healthiest dragon he had seen in a long time) and also provided pictures, as I do to alot of people, being the very proud owner of what I consider a beautiful dragon.
My next email received from Sunshine stated, "You have one heck of a dragon, please sell him back" I took this as a joke but turned them down. I then was asked if I would breed him for a fee? I told them I wasn't a breeder but went on to jokingly say ".......send me one of your really pretty yellow babies, I'll breed them when she's old enough and you can have all but one back, hehehe!!!" They said "Done". At this point, I realized that they were serious.
I asked for a Vegas x DeeDee baby as I had seen they were still for sale on their website but Bruce (Sunshine) emailed me back saying they had a nice Dante x DeeDee baby picked out for me, to send $35 for shipping.
________________________________
From: [email protected] Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 15:07:39 EDT
Subject: Re: Bruce-more
To: *********
CC: [email protected]

Sherri,

Again we have a beautiful Dante X DeeDee Female picked out. $35 for shipping by pay pal, check, or credit card (PayPal is SunshineDragons@ aol.com)

We will pay for any shipping of babies! go for it. Are you sure you don't want to sell Whiskers back.

Regards
Bruce Kalish
215-860-9495
________________________



On the very same day I received this email I found out that Dante had died during brumation, causes unknown due to decomposition.
He still had or has not told me of any test results but then I was forwarded another mass email from someone unrelated to this company, where he says that babies have come back positive, this statement was dated 10/23/06, the day before he emailed me with the info of the Dante baby he had picked for me. I wasn't forwarded the email where he states about positive babies until 10/27/06.
__________________________

Forwarded Message: Subj: Division Of Sunshinedragons-Bruce Kalish-Confused-Innoncent Questions
Date: 10/23/2006 9:28:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time
From: Charities316
To: [email protected]



Dan,

This is Bruce, although I am an owner in Sunshinedragons, I really only participate in their charity division.

Nevertheless, we have been reading and contacting many Vets, Universities, and your Articles on Adeno. Some issues I just don't understand, and hope you may clarify them to me.

Sunshinedragons takes pride and is passionate about it's pets. the Breeders we did a fecal check on came back negative with some only one that was Questionable. Yet some babies came back positive from those same Breeders?
____________________________

He has never told me of these results, yet was going to send me a baby, for a future breeding project, that would quite possibly infect my bearded dragons. His website is still selling dragons, without mentioning the fact that he has Adeno in his facility.

My questions are;

When did Bruce originally get the results of these tests?

Where is Pyro?

If anyone has any information, I would greatly appreciate it. I have asked Bruce and Sunshinedragons about the test results numerous times and still have yet to receive an answer from them. All I have basically received are mass mailings that are confusing at best.


Thank you.
_____________________

 

[CheriS]

Sunshine has know since the end of September that I know of, that some samples they had sent off for testing came back positive for adenovirus. Others that had bought from him had dragons that died and necropsy showed adenovirus as the cause of death

He emailed that information to me on Oct 1. 2006. so well before he was talking to you. I have always agree not to disclose what someone sends me in email about any illness in their colony as long as they are working to clear it and not spread it or endanger others by selling known infected animals. They had not tested all their animals, but he told me he was going to test all, and was not selling them.

We have posted on my site a letter from Dr Elliott Jacobson that clarifies no matter what this man says in mass mailing, neither he nor anyone at Dr Jacobson's school talked to him or told he it was okay to sell infected bearded dragons as he states in those mailings. I also emailed with Dr Stacey (University of Florida, Gainesville) and Dr Rosenthal(University of PA) who he also list in those mass emailing. They deny saying the things he states they did in those mailings to his customers or state he took them our on context or added things into their emails they did not state. He still continues to sell and ship bearded dragons, even after Dr Jacobson's letter was given to him.

I do not know anything about Pyro or who if anyone has her. I will post more later, let me check my emails on dates and times, so I make sure not to misinform anything. You are not the only one he tried to send one of these babies to or had this week

 

[whiskersmom]

It was because of those mass mailings that I felt comfortable enough to want to do business with him. It was all lies and a smoke screen and I came extremely close to allowing him to put that virus in my home.
Going by the dates, he knew what he was sending me, this makes me so mad.
Thank you Cheri, I really would like to know what happened with Pyro, if you can find out.

 

[CheriS]

I check all my emails and dates to be sure Here they are

I became aware this past Saturday night Oct 21, 2006 that he was selling positive infected ones, the emailed ad flier to his customers for a "special sale" was dated October 6, 2002 is where I first learned he might be selling the infected dragons. I did not receive this from him. That ad was less than a week after he promised me he was not selling them. The father of those dragons in the ad flier was already dead and I asked him about that also when I called to talk to him to find out why he was selling infected ones when he had promised not to. First he claimed he needed to sell them as he had suppliers and a mortgage that needed paid whch just disgusted me and then he started yelling I could not tell him what to do, i disconnected the call.

He sent me several emails that night, going from claiming vet/viral researchers were telling him it was acceptable to sell them to threatening me with lawsuits and to report others to the ASPCA if we said anything about this. I even talked to breeders outside this industry to get their input of what they would do, as it was so frustrating to know someone was selling infected animals but threating me and others if we said anything. After reading B.W. Smith's thread on here about IBD, which is very similar, affecting his collection of very expensive animals and how heartbreaking that was, I thought I had to do something. .I asked him several times on the phone and in email to tell people, they were infected PRIOR to shipping and to let others decide if they wanted to buy infected animals. At least that way they could take safety cautions to avoid infecting their other dragons, if they choose to buy them.

We contacted the schools and researchers he claimed told him this. I spoke with the University of PA and also University of Florida. Dr Brian Stacey and Dr Elliott Jacobson (both he has mentioned to me as saying it was okay to sell them) in several email on October 23 and 24th and on the phone to Dr Jacobson on the 24th which he also provided a letter to be shared with the community to clarify his position. That letter as edited on the 26th to change only the reference that Dr Jacobson listed and asked changed.

I have not had any info from Sunshine (Bruce) since Saturday night when I blocked his emails as he was threatening me and others, but I do know he saw Dr Jacobson's letter as he sent out another babbling mass mailing on the 27th (I would post it here, but the thing is 17 pages long!!) and also another breeder he had sold some adult dragons to emailed me about it also. He was well aware he had a deadly virus in his collection, was selling them knowing it and trying to give you one also based on the dates you provided. We just had a lady post who got one from him this 2 days ago, so he is still selling them! I think it is good you brought this here so maybe some others can be warned and get this out in the open if there are all these breeders that think it is okay to sell them like he claims! There are many clear colonies in the US breeder population, I know of many that are clear for a fact and many more that have emailed me that this week

If anyone wants to read this long mass email he sent out. .. I can email them or put it on a URL , there is no way I want to put 17 pages on here!

 

[Rebel Dragons]

Cheri, I know 17 pages seems like a lot but I personally feel that it should be put here on the BOI for all to see. In the grand scheme of things 17 pages is a drop in the bucket. Adeno virus is not something to be taken lightly. People need to know that this virus can and will KILL their dragons if they are infected with it. A good friend of mine lost his collection to it a couple years ago. I saw how hard it was for him to put down all of his dragons. I wouldn't want to see more people have to do the same.

To know that breeder tested positive for the virus and is still selling babies infected with it is beyond disgusting. Who knows how many other breeders and dragon owners have bought these infected dragons and unknowingly brought adeno virus into their homes???

Cheri and Wendy, please post everything you have on this here on the BOI. The bearded dragon community needs to be aware that this is taking place and that they need to avoid Sunshine Dragons.

 

[CheriS]

I am not sure it is allowed to post it as it has many emails in it to and from other people that he included when he sent it out to me and others on his mailing lists/customers, but they are partial ones and things he added his comments too, but it looks like they are theirs. Many of the peoples in it, have already denied they said the things that it is made to appear they did.

And it is not just one mailing with 17 pages, there are several more with dozens of pages eacg plus a dozen to me. ( that are not very nice )

I have an email out to my attorney asking him if it is okay to link from a URL I put it on, that will save a heck of a lot of wasted space on this thread and I am not so sure it will help answer her questions any more as she already listed the letter to Dr Wentz he send out stating his babies tested positive.

I will post Dr Jacobson's letter here:

TO: Cheri Smith
FROM: Elliott Jacobson
SUBJECT: Bearded dragon adenovirus

It has been brought to my attention that misinformation attributed to me is circulating concerning adenovirus infection of bearded dragons (BD).

A major problem is that despite our attempts to educate people who call us about this and other health issues of reptiles, those people lacking a medical background have a very real problem understanding what we are saying or may use what we discussed out of context. At times bits and pieces of things are heard and then weaved into something entirely different than what was originally stated.

My own opinion is that adenovirus is a significant health issue and a major effort is needed to eliminate this virus from breeding groups of BD. While we know relatively little about the biology and pathogenicity of this virus in bearded dragons, and that much research is needed to determine its overall health impact, it is my impression from cases that I have seen that this virus can result in severe hepatic necrosis (liver disease) and death. Thus known positive animals should never be sold in the pet trade. It may turn out that there may be different strains of this virus in bearded dragons that cause different degrees of mortality. This eventually needs to be studied. Outcomes of lizards that are infected need to be studied. How long can a BD shed virus? The questions go on and on. Ultimately, transmission studies are needed to show that a specific virus can kill lizards.

But, in the meantime, with more than 30 years of experience working with reptile pathogens I consider the adenovirus we have seen in bearded dragons a pathogen. It may act as a primary pathogen in certain cases while in others it may work in concert with other pathogens. Or, it is possible that a latent infection (one in which the virus is still present in low numbers somewhere in the animal's body) becomes active after "something" suppresses the animal's immune system. Still, the virus is a pathogen and an animal is certainly better off if it is not infected in the first place. The severe necrosis of the liver that is often seen with BDs infected with this virus is similar to the liver disease seen in other animals, including other reptiles, infected with adenovirus.

A similar adenovirus has been seen in boa constrictors having severe hepatic necrosis and transmission studies have been done to show that this virus can result in mortality (Jacobson ER, Gaskin JM, Gardiner CH. 1985. Adenovirus-like infection in a boa constrictor. J Amer Vet Med Assoc 187:1226-1227). I have seen a similar virus in other snakes dying with severe hepatic necrosis and in lizards other than bearded dragons having various clinical signs of illness and lesions (Wellehan JFX, Johnson AJ, Harrach B, Benko M, Pessier AP, Johnson CM, Garner MM, Childress C, Jacobson ER. 2004. Detection and analysis of six lizard adenoviruses by consensus primer PCR provides further evidence of a reptilian origin for the atadenoviruses. J Virol 78:13366-13369). These reports make it clear that this is not a benign agent.

Frye FL, MunnRJ, Gardner M, Barten SL, Hadfy LB. 1994. Adenovirus-like hepatitis in a group of related Rankin's dragon lizards (Pogono henrylawsoni) J Zoo Wildl Med 25:167-171.

Jacobson ER, Gaskin JM, Gardiner CH. 1985. Adenovirus-like infection in a boa constrictor. J Amer Vet Med Assoc 187:1226-1227

Jacobson ER, Kopit W, O'Brien B. 1996. Co-infection of a Bearded Dragon, Pogona vitticeps, with Adeno- and Dependo-like Viruses. Vet Path. 33:343-346
Julian AF, Durham JK. 1985. Adenoviral hepatitis in a bearded dragon (Amphibolurus barbatus). N Z Vet J 30:59-60.

Kim DY, Mitchell MA, Bauer RW, Poston R, Cho DY. 2002. An outbreak of adenoviral infection in inland bearded dragons (Pogona vitticeps) coinfected with dependovirus and coccidial protozoa (Isospora sp.). J Vet Diagn Invest 14:332-334.

Wellehan JFX, Johnson AJ, Harrach B, Benko M, Pessier AP, Johnson CM, Garner MM, Childress C, Jacobson ER. 2004. Detection and analysis of six lizard adenoviruses by consensus primer PCR provides further evidence of a reptilian origin for the atadenoviruses. J Virol 78:13366-13369

I hope this provides some useful information.

With best regards,
Elliott Jacobson, DVM, PhD, DACZM
Professor of Zoological Medicine
University of Florida

 

[Brenda777]

You know this is all scary. I e-mailed the breeder that kept sending me the email and told them to stop. I was starting to get worried since no one named who the breeder was but it wasn't hard to figure out. I am worried about my beardies, all of whom came from this breeder. My girls came from Starburst - Hypo x Snow/German Giant that came from Dragon's by nature. I was told recently that she died due to she would not stop laying eggs and got sick and died. My girls seem to be healthy. Can I get a fecal done at the vet to know for sure? Or can't a regular vet do so? I want to believe that they were healthy when sold. I hate to think bad about anyone. I just wanted it to be one big misunderstanding for everyone. The person I used to talk to at the breeder just seemed to dissapear and then the e-mails started.

 

[whiskersmom]

The person that I had always dealt with had disappeared on me also, I think she doesn't work with Sunshine anymore, otherwise I know I would have heard from her. Must be the same person you are talking about, Brenda.
Believe me, I didn't want to think this was anything other then a misunderstanding also, but it did make me wonder what they were trying to hide when I was told "We no longer have Pyro", not that they had sold her or gave her away. I think this guy realized that alot of his stock is infected and instead of doing what Wendy did, for the good of the species and prospective owners, he took the low road and decided to try to hide it.
I am still extremely upset that Bruce would want to send me a dragon to breed with my dragon (that was originally one of theirs) that is infected. I know I'm taking this too personally as he is apparently doing this to others but I can't help it.

 

[Cat_72]

When someone is more than willing to do something that will risk the lives of your babies, you have EVERY right to take it personally. I know I would.

 

[Lauren Summey]

When someone is more than willing to do something that will risk the lives of your babies, you have EVERY right to take it personally. I know I would.

I agree.
It would be completely irresponsible and wrong for him to even consider selling a dragon that was even possibly infected to you without knowing for sure if the dragon was healthy and virus free before sending it to you; especially since he was sending you the dragon for the purpose of breeding! I can't understand why he would take the risk of not only infecting someone else's collection, but breeding the infected dragon, which would produce more infected babies!?

 

[whiskersmom]

I don't understand it myself, I can't imagine doing this even if I didn't know conclusively that my dragons were infected. Just suspecting that they are would be enough for me to shut distribution down.

 

[jason@beardeddragons]

Oh Nooooo!

I can't believe this crap! I just got a free dragon from sunshinedragons which was to repay me for advertising funds I put forward for sunshinecages which in turn didn't yield any sales. I was owed this dragon for a couple years now. They say it is a baby from Dante (Cawley Red) X Siren (Cawley Red/Orange). I wasn't informed about any adenovirus before getting him. Then got their statment on Adenovirus a few days later. I am sending this dragon back today. He has been here for a week and is in quaranteen. Good thing I always quarentine all my new dragons for 3 months before putting them with my colony. Talk about a close call. I still just can't believe that someone who I respected and trusted and have known for years would do that to me. UNBELIEVABLE! Last business I will do with them for sure.

 

[CheriS]

Posting the 17 page mass emailing is moot, someone at a Yahoo group posted the last mailing (Oct 27) that Sunshine Dragons sent out. I will put the URL here, but not sure if you have to be a member or not to read it
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/pogona/message/73958

he has ran a lot of things together so it LOOKS like it is the people he is emailing with comments, but they often are his own comments inserted in them. Also in his current email he has changed it from HIM getting these emails from researchers he is quoting (now it says "paraphrasing"!!!!) to looking like it is someone else getting them and forwarding to HIM, its all very confusing. Maybe he is now trying to dodge responsibility by blaming another person for giving him false information , but I know for a fact he is very aware this is wrong , I had emails with him for over a month and also talked to him on the phone, he KNEW selling them could infect others! We actually fought about it on the phone and he claimed he could not afford to hold them or test them all and he also mentions his paying bills and suppliers in this mass mailing too. ALSO note; he signs everything with his son Jon's name, not his.

Jason, is there no where that you can find to take this baby dragon where it would be the only one they have or test it? Shipping can cause stress that lets the virus take hold of them and die. I know it should not be your problem. you got ripped off too, but I hate to see an animal suffer due to Bruce's Irresponsibility

Brenda, see the thread on the bearded dragon discussion area of this board, that has the University Lab to contact for testing and cost under $25

 

[jason@beardeddragons]

The dragon is very healthy and colorful. It has been eating well and is in good shape to ship. Bruce was kind enough to take him back without hating me for it. Much more studies needs to be done on adenovirus, at this point we know very little about it. Hopefully some good can come from all this negativity; hopefully we can find more conclusive tests for adenovirus on living animals, as well as possible a cure or antivirus some day! Everyone please focus your efforts into helping understand and research adenovirus. This is where your efforts are needed and can do some good. Best wishes to EVERONE effected by this issue!

 

[Brenda777]

Thanks Cheri I will take a look.

 

[Neverland Dragons]

I have not posted until now because I was not sure what to include. I previously posted about my ordeal with adenovirus in the bearded dragon forum. I got some not so nice emails from Bruce after I posted because I had not warned him before I posted publicly. I did my best to explain my reasons and our issues were resolved. He has ridiculed and berated me for the way I chose to deal with adenovirus in my colony to others, but not directly to me.

My whole reason for bringing my situation to the forums was to raise public awareness about the potentially devastating effects of adenovirus. I am still baffled regarding Bruce's attitude in his mass emails. It is my understanding that the dragons either have the capability to pass it on, and are therefore carriers, or they do not have the virus. My personal situation shows that you can have seemingly healthy dragons, but just one adult with even very low levels, can devastate multiple clutches. This is not hear say, it is a fact, I saw it happen with my own two eyes.

One of the things that I find most interesting is that in Bruce's first email he states various quotes by Dr. Elliot Jacobson's office (which turned out to be inaccurate) and refers to Dr. Jacobson as "One of the foremost reputable reptile vets in the world and he's done much of the reptile virus work." Then, when we get a letter from Dr. Jacobson stating that he thinks adenovirus is a pathogen in bearded dragons and known infected animals should never be sold in the pet trade, Bruce then says, "Yet, one scientist is not enough for us regardless of who it might be." He down played Dr. Jacobson's relevance because he said something total opposite of what Bruce has been saying. He can't have it both ways. Dr. Jacobson went from "world renowned reptile virologist" to "one scientist" simply because it suited Sunshine's need to try and justify selling babies that come up positive.

I will agree with Bruce that absolutely much more needs to be done with studies to understand the transmission and biology of this virus. In an October solicitation email to sell dragons Bruce also stated, "They are doing a variety of controlled studies in all areas, especially on Bearded Dragons. Beardies have come into their own and out of the Dark ages & Old Rumor Mills
The new results and studies are stunning and invaluable. The World is not flat, and they have used Scientific findings on all reptiles yet especially focusing on Bearded Dragons."

I would sure like to know who "THEY" are, because I contacted several universities, including the University of Florida, University of Georgia, University of Pennsylvania and NC State University Vet school to try and find out if there were any studies that I could donate adenovirus positive babies to. They all said it was a great idea, but there was just no funding available. I even asked if they knew of any studies being done. Not one of them did, so I would really like to know what studies Bruce is referring to.

I have a necropsy report that shows the diagnosis of death in two babies I submitted to be adenovirus in bearded dragons. My experience shows that it can easily and quickly be spread among baby dragons, even when good husbandry is practiced. Why on earth would someone knowingly sell adenovirus positive babies? And not even tell the prospective buyers? There is a big enough problem with this virus being unknowingly passed, which is what I feel was the case with my male Clyde. But to knowingly sell positive babies is just plain wrong.

I believe that one's true character comes out when they are faced with a difficult situation. Doing the right thing is not always easy, but what is most important at the end of the day, is that we do the right thing. I do not feel that is the case here, not for the customers and not for the U.S. dragon population.

 

[whiskersmom]

The dragon is very healthy and colorful. It has been eating well and is in good shape to ship. Bruce was kind enough to take him back without hating me for it. Much more studies needs to be done on adenovirus, at this point we know very little about it. Hopefully some good can come from all this negativity; hopefully we can find more conclusive tests for adenovirus on living animals, as well as possible a cure or antivirus some day! Everyone please focus your efforts into helping understand and research adenovirus. This is where your efforts are needed and can do some good. Best wishes to EVERONE effected by this issue!

WHAT!!!! Bruce was kind enough to take him back without hating you for it??????? Was he kind enough to give him to you knowing that the dragon was most likely infected??? Why would he hate you? It's the other way around.
I see you've been talking to Bruce? To hear him talk, this is all over rated, no matter that the top ranking experts are saying that Adeno is a killer and DO NOT sell infected dragons.
The only reason there is negativity surrounding this is because some people would rather play it shady and not come forth and disclose the facts about their stock. Heck, don't come forth......just don't distribute them.
I'm sorry if it seems like I'm being harsh, but I can't stand the thought of you thinking that Bruce had any right in hating you for this.....you did nothing wrong.

 

[whiskersmom]

Looking over the mass mailing that Bruce put out dated Oct. 27th, the one that Cheri linked to, I noticed that he had left out the last part of my remark he quoted me as saying. He left out the part where I said I didn't want to unknowingly allow my dragon to be around others if he was infected.


Wed, 11 Oct 2006 06:15:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: "sherri" <[email protected]> Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert
Subject: Bruce
To: [email protected]
Hi, I was wondering if you had gotten back the results on the Adenovirus? I bought Whiskers from you last year, he was from Pyro and Studly, July 27th 2005.
I will be getting him tested if the results from you are positive, I would hate for him to have it and me not know, then unknowingly allow him around another dragon.

Thanks,
Sherri

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

My only question is how long has this been going on? I own one DBN dragon and one Sunshine dragon that I purchased 2-3 years ago.

 

[Neverland Dragons]

My only question is how long has this been going on? I own one DBN dragon and one Sunshine dragon that I purchased 2-3 years ago.

My male Clyde was from DBN and I got him in October 2004. Clyde is from Tango x Jewel.