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Sunshinedragons

I've withheld speaking up on this thread because I don't want or need the lynch mob after me. However, with the immature comments I've seen a couple of people make, and the accusations that seem to flourish, I feel a need to speak up so I've registered and am doing just that, speaking up.
I purchased 2 dragons from Sunshine Dragons at a show last season. Both of my girls, at a little over a year old, are 17 and 19 inches and both over 350 grams. They've been healthy every day of their lives, they're gorgeous and sweet, and have both tested NEGATIVE for the virus. I won't hesitate to purchase from Bruce in the future if I ever decide 2 healthy dragons aren't enough.
 
myname2149 said:
I've withheld speaking up on this thread because I don't want or need the lynch mob after me. However, with the immature comments I've seen a couple of people make, and the accusations that seem to flourish, I feel a need to speak up so I've registered and am doing just that, speaking up.
I purchased 2 dragons from Sunshine Dragons at a show last season. Both of my girls, at a little over a year old, are 17 and 19 inches and both over 350 grams. They've been healthy every day of their lives, they're gorgeous and sweet, and have both tested NEGATIVE for the virus. I won't hesitate to purchase from Bruce in the future if I ever decide 2 healthy dragons aren't enough.

Bruce has produced more good dragons then can be counted. It is when there is a problem that a breeders true colors show through. Everyone knows Bruce bought some of the best breeders in the country and brought a great collection together. Unfortunately he picked up adeno somewhere along the line and even though his babies have tested positive he feels it is ok to sell them without full disclosure of the fact that some are infected. I feel you are only as good as the last dragon you sold. You cant fall back on your reputation when something like this happens.
 
myname2149 said:
I've withheld speaking up on this thread because I don't want or need the lynch mob after me. However, with the immature comments I've seen a couple of people make, and the accusations that seem to flourish, I feel a need to speak up so I've registered and am doing just that, speaking up.
I purchased 2 dragons from Sunshine Dragons at a show last season. Both of my girls, at a little over a year old, are 17 and 19 inches and both over 350 grams. They've been healthy every day of their lives, they're gorgeous and sweet, and have both tested NEGATIVE for the virus. I won't hesitate to purchase from Bruce in the future if I ever decide 2 healthy dragons aren't enough.
Will you have your dragons tested? Will you breed them? IF they test positive, will you tell your buyers?
 
We are testing every single day.

The test is the healthy beautiful dragons we distribute.

The test is that over the last 7 months of shipping one person came forward with an ill Dragon one.

The test is that after 5-7 months there are no mass deaths,mas ill or sickly Dragons being reported by any consumer, hobby breeder, or Breeder,

The test is you care more about telling us how to run the business than the fact that there is absolutely no proof or evidence that supports what you say.

The test isn't in the feces, liver or whatever. The test is the Sunshines beautiful Healhty Dragons.

We thought that was the point not how, not the process. Not some invalid test that tells nothing.

Again show us the sick unhealty Dragons. You can't . Pisses you off doesn't it.

Pisses you off that we won't bow to the mob mentality,

Pisses you off that the lynching party couldn't lynch us.

Every dragon we sell is the test.

Remember you were the ones that said this was a very contagious, Deadly killer, that spreads and contaminates instintly, especially Babies. Well how come it didn't happen. Where are they? This deadly "Black Placgue"

That is the only test that matters. We have gentically sound, Incredibly healthy Breeders and distribute incredibly robust, healthy, beautiful Genetically incredible Dragons.

That really pisses you off. Yet you want us to do what you tell us...Sure...

Go pick on someone else that will fold.

We have Great Healthy Dragons, and it pisses you off that you can't prove otherwise.

Pissess you off we running our own business by successfully distributing some of the Heathiest, beautiful Dragons in the industry, We aren't the only ones.

LOL What a waste. keep playing follow the leader, while we innovate and lead.

Now lose your temper and again scream, curse, call us names as we sell out due to the real test...Our Dragons! Attempt to intimidate us. It really works. Get a life.

Good luck on your next trashing party. Were leaving this one. It is dull boring redundent and full of resentment. Lights out
 
If you post one more time, I'm coming down their to kick you butt & you'll have another nerve that bothers you!!!!
Don't give them the satisfaction. All they are doing is trying to get you going. No facts are being presented & absolutely NO ONE can see that at the moment. The are getting off on the argument!!! You know that. It's like having a traffic back up for 2 miles & when you get up to the problem all it is, is a cop giving someone a ticket. Very frustrating. No one is reading the facts!! Just the argument at this point...

Luv ya & stay strong & off Fauna. Call us & we will be your sponsors. LOL
 
Sunshinedragons said:
Sunshinedragon will not post on this thread, anymore. It is just redundant. We will certainly answer any questions sent to us directly by e-mail.
[email protected]



Sunshinedragons said:
Again sunshinedragons has adequately stated its position, opinion and answered numerous questions, We will be happy to answer any questions by e-mail that are specific to certain people, or Dragons. We don't even acknowlege Cheri S as relevant, just as someone attempting to engage us again and again to regain her lost credibility. No one except a select few are even reading or posting anymore. that speaks for itself and Cheri's lack of importance or relevance. Like we said enough posting. If you have specific questions you may e-mail us at [email protected]




Sunshinedragons said:
With comments like yours.

Were done.


Resentment is like drinking Poison and expecting the other person to die.

Thats it show us the diseased dragons or shut up. Until you do were not posting especially with the inappropriate, unprofessional poost now coming.


Night, and thanks for all the customers you have sent us over this post. the backlash is incredible.




Sunshinedragons said:
Sorry were done as of the previous post. Forget it. Were not going to take that garbage, or be subjected to it.

We have taken enough of the insults,false and innacurate accusations and now that. Forget it.

Were not going to repond to anyone on this post after that. No way are going to put up with this garbage.

Bruce




Sunshinedragons said:
Good luck on your next trashing party. Were leaving this one. It is dull boring redundent and full of resentment. Lights out
You're just way too easy.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
myname2149 said:
I've withheld speaking up on this thread because I don't want or need the lynch mob after me. However, with the immature comments I've seen a couple of people make, and the accusations that seem to flourish, I feel a need to speak up so I've registered and am doing just that, speaking up.
I purchased 2 dragons from Sunshine Dragons at a show last season. Both of my girls, at a little over a year old, are 17 and 19 inches and both over 350 grams. They've been healthy every day of their lives, they're gorgeous and sweet, and have both tested NEGATIVE for the virus. I won't hesitate to purchase from Bruce in the future if I ever decide 2 healthy dragons aren't enough.

I, too, have a dragon that I bought from Sunshine last year. He is 22" long and weighs around 710 grams and is also healthy. This is not what this is about. I asked some specific questions about his dragons and Adeno testing. Was he sending me an infected baby, would you knowingly want an infected baby sent to you? One that you will breed to your existing dragons that have been healthy? I, myself don't want to be the breeder of Adeno positive baby bearded dragons, and I'm sure there are alot more like me out there.

Bruce, the test is not in your healthy dragons.....if that is a fact then you failed that test with at least two dragons that I know of...Dante and Pyro both died in your care of causes unknown. You have had healthy dragons that have died before their time and you still don't think testing is warrented??? I don't understand this mentality. It's not about how long they have it or how it is spread or if they'll be healthy all their lives even if infected. It's about a virus that we know squat about and until we do, it's our duty to contain it. How can any responsible breeder knowingly reproduce this virus by breeding Adeno positive dragons? And then sell them without letting the buyer know???
 
Innovate and lead ? I didnt know buying others breeders dragons and then breeding them yourself is any way innovative. That is what 99.8 % of breeders of beardedragons do, I feel there are only a few breeders out there that can boast of being innovative and leaders and Burce Kalish certainly isnt on that list.
You are however great at avoiding simple questions by long winded ramblings that just blow smoke and basically avoid the question. You did however tell me in an Instant message last week that you had babies that have tested positive. I dont see why you cant do the same here. You can lie about that but it is going to catch up with you sooner or later.....
 
Lil brucie is also, by EVERY post he makes, confirming that he is a lying sack of crap.

I won't come back, you're all to mean to me and don't listen to me make excuses the way others do. Wah Wah Wah

I'll NEVER post here again, not for at least 3 hours.

You're scum brucie, scum and not just scum, but dumb scum too boot.

Who else you going to get to come to your defense? You've sold, what is it, hundreds by your own admission, of dragons and there are what, one maybe two, HIGHLY questionable people here defending you?

That's pretty telling. It's telling, since you are obviously far too stupid to see it on your own, that YOU are KNOWN for the scumbag you are, NOT the nice friendly disease spreading breeder of silent death you pretend, ooops, strike that nice and friendly part of that, to be.
 
Instead of constant posting back and forth, why don't the people that do have dragons from him have them tested? This is what I am going to do with the two I have from him. I think that want ever comes from the test will say it all. This constant back and forth bickering is rediculous. I have to agree with some of the others. There isn't alot of evidence posted here, just back and forth BS. The two dragons I have seem to be healthy and thriving and getting quite large. But I know appearences can be decieving, hence...get the dragons tested for my own peace of mind. One of the dragons I have is a Studley and Starburst, if he comes back negative I guess that will pretty much settle it all. I am in hopes that he does come back negative, I have become very attached to him. He is a very handsome boy and I would hate to lose him and my other dragons to such a nasty disease.
 
Iguanalady said:
Instead of constant posting back and forth, why don't the people that do have dragons from him have them tested? This is what I am going to do with the two I have from him. I think that want ever comes from the test will say it all. This constant back and forth bickering is rediculous. I have to agree with some of the others. There isn't alot of evidence posted here, just back and forth BS. The two dragons I have seem to be healthy and thriving and getting quite large. But I know appearences can be decieving, hence...get the dragons tested for my own peace of mind. One of the dragons I have is a Studley and Starburst, if he comes back negative I guess that will pretty much settle it all. I am in hopes that he does come back negative, I have become very attached to him. He is a very handsome boy and I would hate to lose him and my other dragons to such a nasty disease.
No, it won't settle it all.

It will settle whether or not your particular dragons are infected and that is all it will settle.

There are many others out there, doubtlessly belonging to many people, who know nothing of this site or the potential threat to their pets. Unless and until all of them are posted, the back and forth will have to continue.
 
Wilomn said:
No, it won't settle it all.

It will settle whether or not your particular dragons are infected and that is all it will settle.

There are many others out there, doubtlessly belonging to many people, who know nothing of this site or the potential threat to their pets. Unless and until all of them are posted, the back and forth will have to continue.

You are right to a point Wes, but two of the dragons in question here are Starburst and Studley, so at least that part will be settled if my boy comes back negative. I have to admit, I am scared for my little guy, I don't want to have him put down. I don't want my other dragons infected, I have a small fortune sunk into them. But it is more of them being my pets then it is the money. It would devastate me to lose them.
 
Bruce, I know you asked me to not post again, but honestly I can't help myself. Feel free to come kick my butt ... I did promise you a cup of my infamous coffee if you come to my area, when I met you at the show :)

Wilomn said:
Will you have your dragons tested? Will you breed them? IF they test positive, will you tell your buyers?

What exact part of both of my dragons have tested negative did you not understand? My girls have been tested. They are NEGATIVE of the virus. Hopefully you'll comprehend that statement this time.
I really don't understand how you can call me "HIGHLY questionable" simply because I have the balls to stand up to this bs. Perhaps this is why you've had so many warnings against you on this site.
Crazyhorse, while I understand your statement, the best judge of character is a customer - past or present. I myself have 2 girls from Sunshine dragons who are very healthy, and 2 good friends also purchased dragons at the same time I did, from Sunshine dragons, who are also very healthy Adeno-negative tested dragons. Isn't it better to have facts than to assume? I would say it is. What happened to the philosophy of "harm none"? Or is that just wishful thinking? I'm seeing a good man's reputation damaged by a bunch of hearsay. I've yet to see any conclusive proof that any of these accusations are valid. Instead, I myself and my friends, who again also have Sunshine Dragons, are very happy with our HEALTHY animals.
 
myname2149 said:
What exact part of both of my dragons have tested negative did you not understand? My girls have been tested. They are NEGATIVE of the virus. Hopefully you'll comprehend that statement this time.

Do you believe that ONE negative test is all you need to be positive of having an adeno free animal? With so little known about this virus I hope you would consider the possiblitiy that ONE negative test is not enough...........


myname2149 said:
Crazyhorse, while I understand your statement, the best judge of character is a customer - past or present. I myself have 2 girls from Sunshine dragons who are very healthy, and 2 good friends also purchased dragons at the same time I did, from Sunshine dragons, who are also very healthy Adeno-negative tested dragons. Isn't it better to have facts than to assume?


You seem to like facts, so let see some facts. Please post the results you have from your adeno testing. Actually photos or scans of the results would be great. Have your friends post theirs as well. If you want to deal in facts, show em if ya got em. I would love to see some actual proof. Proof of anything at this point. Bruce has been asked to post his testing results and obviously has chosen not to. For someone with such "wonderful", "healthy", "top of the line" dragons, I find that disturbing. Even more so since he claims to be so concerned about this adeno virus issue and brags about all that he's doing and everyone he's talked to.

Care to share your test results or are you going to pitch a fit, cry foul and blame the "mob" for everything before you disappear too???
 
If the mother can pass it to the eggs, and the mother tests clear, don't you think further testing would be necessary given that it is in brucies lizards?

Of course, if you care as little about those who get your lizards as he does those who have his, then one test is one too many.
 
For those of you who have tested or are testing:

Did you test with a lab that has you freeze the sample and then mix it in a fixative before sending it? If you do not, there is a good chance that even if your dragon is a carrier, adeno cells will not be detectable. I had my first round of testing done locally and they were taking too long (I was afraid of inaccurate results) so I went ahead and did all of the same dragons using the protocol at the University of IL. Clyde and all but one baby sample were positive while My 6 other dragons and one baby were clear. The next day my vet called me to tell me that they did not find ANY adenovirus in the samples. The local lab did not use a fixative and did not perform the test in a timely manner. They cover themselves by saying, "well, it may be that they are not shedding cells." Or, it may be that they waited too long and the virus breaks down enough to not be recognized.

I am not saying absolutely do not use your vets lab, but I am saying to question how they do the test. Here is info from the University of IL collection site:

Collection:

• For this virus it is important to collect the feces as fresh as possible. Even 30 minutes post elimination is too long for good viral identification.

• Collect the sample in a ziplock bag, and immediately FREEZE, not just refrigerate.

• When ready to send a collection of samples, take the still frozen feces and place in the tube with 5 mls of fixative:


Preparation

1. Use a 15 ml conical tube, best with a screw cap,
Place up to 5 mls of feces into the tube.

2. Place 5 mls of fixative on top of the sample, then mix well
with wooden sticks. Appropriately discard the sticks.

3. Cap the tube, seal with parafilm, and put into
2 plastic bags if shipping in a box, or into provided mailer.

4. Send with samples in contact with an icepack, overnight


The other option is to do the DNA based testing, but that is quite a bit more expensive. The fecal em test is $23.45 plus overnight shipping. If you are taking the time to have testing done, it is important that the results be as accurate as possible.

On a positive note, Lou Ann from the University of IL has been in talk with Dr. Elliot Jacobson at the University of FL to do a collaborative study comparing the fecal em and the DNA pcr based testing. That is a great step in the right direction. Sorry if that has already been posted, I am just excited that something is actually being done.

I truly hope everyones animals are clear. The babies that are in question are ones that tested positive and for his own reasons Bruce decided that the test results were not valid and it was o.k. to sell them without telling people about the results. That is why people are not letting this thread die. No doubt Sunshine has some nice healthy dragons it has sold. I can also see why it is hard to wrap your head around that a seemingly healthy animal can infect others with this virus. I had dragons that I could have easily sold for $300 plus that tested positive for the virus. It was hard to accept, but the fact remained that they tested positive for the virus and I could not risk spreading it to others.

The uncertainty of the results should exist if you did not properly collect the samples with a negative result. I agree with Mike that more than one test should be done, months a part to be as certain as possible the dragon is indeed clear. However, according to Lou Ann, this virus is pretty easy to identify and if it is present (even a little) the dragon is a carrier for the virus. They may be large and look and act healthy, but it does not negate the fact that they can potentially infect others, especially hatchlings and young juveniles with less developed immune systems.
 
Despite the fact that I believe that certain people have made statements that are perhaps best termed less than forthright, I wanted to make some comments about this issue.

As is likely true, much if not most of the nearded dragon stock in this country has come from small group(s) of imports. There has been so much "cross-pollination" of breeders that it is likely that adenovirus has passed through or resides in the collections of most if not all major breeders. If that is the case where is the epidemic of deaths?

The information that has been posted, while no doubt relevant, is opinion, and is based on anecdotal experience (I have seen...) and is not based on prospective peer reviewed studies.

There are multiple serotypes, or strains, of adenoviruses. Some are probably more likely to be pathogenic in bearded dragons than are others, but no one has done the studies to find out which ones those are. Think about E. coli and the recent outbreak. We ALL have E.coli in our large intestines, jut not those particular strains that cause disease.

A negative test does not prove negativity. Even if the test could absolutely rule out virus in the feces (which it does not do completely as there are admittedly false negatives) that only proves that there was no virus being shed at that time. Think about having a cold sore, a herpes simplex virus infection. Those are persistent infections that are sometimes active and sometimes inactive (BTW some people with cold sores develop life threatening herpes encephalitis too). One is not shedding herpes virus every day so one negative test is not conclusive. Neither is one negative fecal for adenovirus. In fact, we don't know how often an infected, asymptomatic animal sheds virus as those studies have yet to be done.

Another analogy is the bacteria N. meningiditis, the causative agent in meningococcal meningitis. It may be present in 1-2% of "healthy" people's oro-nasopharynx up to perhaps 20% of people living in crowded conditions such as prisons, army boot camps, and college dormitories, but very few go on to have disease. This bacteria is a killer once it causes disease, but does so in very few people who carry it.

So...what are people to do with all of this? I don't know. For people who have had several animals die from this, well they were probably infected with a more pathogenic serotype or had dragons with some other immune system problem. That's a guess but until there is actual data, which may never come, it is a reasonable one.

For the rest of you...well I have some dragons that I'm not planning to breed and I'm not going to test them. But if I were going to breed them I'm not sure that I would because I'm not convinced that I have enough information to know what to do with the results of the test, especially if they are negative. I would have a hard time saying my dragons are truly negative with one or even two negative tests. And even if they are positive, they are thriving and appear quite unaffected. Until you know what to do with the answers, asking the question only leaves you with more questions.

The scientific studies need to be done, for sure. But don't expect that to happen anytime soon as they cost lots of money to do. Until then, it's Russian Roulette no matter what choice a breeder makes. But I, myself, with my scientific background, would not take one negative fecal as "proof" of an uninfected colony by any breeder.
 
Bruce has admitted to me in instant messages that some babies did test positive before this thread was started. He also admitted this to other people who are posting on this thread.
I am sure there are tons of healthy dragons that are adeno free that Bruce has sold. What some people arent understanding is that it isnt a question IF he has infected babies, It is a question how many are infected !!!
Myname2149, I know Bruce has sold some gorgeous healthy babies and hopefully you got your tests done the right way and yours are adeno free. However Bruce has admitted to having infected dragons. that is why he isnt arguing THAT fact if you havent noticed, he is arguing that his dragons are still not showing symptoms and how adeno canharm a dragon. He also hasnt mentioned the dieoffs he has had in his own home. When babies hatch it takes about 3 weeks for the virus to incubate and then the babies will get sick and start dying. So in 3 or 4 weeks most of the babies that are going to die from it have already died or are dying there for cant be sold. The dragons that didnt die from that clutch are what is being sold. They might not have died from adeno right away but they are positive and are carriers of the virus and those are the ones that will be spreading it. Its when those dragons come in contact with others or breed and produce babies that more dragons will start dying. Then the whole cycle starts over again.
I personally wouldnt wish that on anyone.
 
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