Sunshinedragons

[dragonwoman]

Well I can honestly say I wouldn't get a dragon from you or anyone dealing with sunshine dragons right now . Not when honesty is at steak or the health of my other dragons !

I stick to my previous post of getting my dragons from the same person I got my other 2 from ..... He cares about his dragons and stays in contact with me on how they are doing and willing to make sure they are healthy and virus free ! And honesty isn't an issue with him ......... Thank you crazyhorse for my babies they are doing well and I still looking for my next one .... see ya sometime soon !

 

[crazyhorse526]

When that happens I'll gladly look to Sunshinedragons again for my purchase, and I will be sending anyone and everyone I know that may want a dragon to them in the meanwhile.
You want proof and facts, I'm willing to give them as long as it doesn't endanger my children. How about some proof and facts of your own? Where's the proof of any of these accusations?

Why would you buy a dragon from somebody who is knowingly selling sick infected dragons or worse sending other people to him also? Why not ask Bruce point blank if he has positive results on some crosses andif he is selling them? What Bruce sold in the past were great dragons and I sent people to Lauren without hesitation. That however was in the past, I would never send anyone to him now after what has happened in the last 2 - 3 months. It isnt because he has infected dragons, it is the way he handled this whole situation. I wouldnt hesitate to send Somebody to Wendy at Neverland, at least I know she is honest.
Isnt it great that Bruce decided now to mail out that mass email on his "charity division" ?
Perfect timing to try and help his lousy reputation in the industry now huh? Most people I know who are charitable do not need to use their charity as another means of self promotion. I give plenty of dragons away and do not feel the need to let everyone know by mass emails.
I do wish you luck if you buy from Bruce again and hopefully by then he will have his adeno problem under control.

 

[Iguanalady]

Well gang....I got the test results back on both my dragons, they are both negative. I can't tell you how relieved I am because they were smack dab in the middle of my colony. I will still have them tested again in a few months just to be sure. But at least I have my peace of mind.

 

[whiskersmom]

Well gang....I got the test results back on both my dragons, they are both negative. I can't tell you how relieved I am because they were smack dab in the middle of my colony. I will still have them tested again in a few months just to be sure. But at least I have my peace of mind.

Denise,
Congratulations!!!
Where did you get the test done at?

 

[Iguanalady]

My local vet did it. I gave her the instructions and she assured me she followed them to a "t" so at least I know they were done properly

 

[whiskersmom]

I'm sorry, but I have to ask this....does your vet have an electron microscope and fixative? If so, it would be nice if you gave his name to others so that they could use him too.

 

[Iguanalady]

she sent them to a lab in Raliegh, NC...I am not sure where, she is not an exotic vet, nor is she certified. She was guided by one of the top vets here in NC from Raliegh, Dr. Dan Johnson, he is definately well known. The vet that I used shows a great interest in beaded dragons, turtles and iguanas but her knowledge is limited. I usually only use her for simple problems and testing, major surguries or illnesses I go to Raliegh or Charlotte, both of which are a minimum of 3 hour drive. I gave her the instructions that you posted here and she followed them. I did my part, the vet did hers and I have peace of mind.

 

[whiskersmom]

The reason I ask is that I was under the impression that the only place that does the electron with fixative was here,

Lou Ann Miller, MT(ASCP)
Service Supervisor
Center for Microscopic Imaging
College of Veterinary Medicine
Rm 1204 VMBSB
2001 S Lincoln Ave
Urbana, IL 61802

And she went on vacation on Nov 5th and won't be returning until the 20th.

 

[Iguanalady]

Not a problem

 

[CheriS]

Any lab that has a EM can run the test, the difference is the use of the fixative. IF processes correctly with it, the test is accurate for positive results. Without the fixative, so many show up as negative. In this thread somewhere is the person who process them for the University of IL comment on this.

There are other universities I know that does the test with the fixative like University of LA and University of FL., but the University of IL was recommends as they had the best price on the testing costs and they ship out the fixative to anyone to process this.

In Wendy's case her vet was also Dr Johnson and the test were sent to the State Lab in Raleigh, NC too, and they showed negative initially, but she still had babies dying so she contacted DR Wentz, who referred her to the University of LA. The necropsy showed adeno and she started doing test with the University of LA, which test on the same clutches showed positive. This is what we meant when we said the test is accurate for positive readings, if handled correctly. If the virus is there, the fixative will preserve it for viewing on an EM. If no fixative to perserve it, and not process timely, even if the dragon carries the virus, it can show negative as the shed viral cells can break down and not be seen on EM exam. I think a ways back that requestion a breeder to test before someone wanted to buy a dragon, would not work as any breeder could make a test show negative...... its not dependable to the buyer.

 

[Iguanalady]

The vet here did use the fixative per the instructions I gave her. I feel confident that my dragons are good to go and will have another testing before breeding season begins. I have no reason to go any farther with it at this point. My dragons are healthy and growing well, there are no issues in my colony. I see no reason to retest them again at this point. I thought giving it a couple of months before breeding begin is sufficient enough and then even having the babies tested from suspect parents is more then protecting myself, my reputation and my dragons.

 

[Sunshinedragons]

of some of Jim O's comments in this thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by CheriS
Are you ignoring what Dr Jacobson , Dr Wentz and the person running the tests say, all who have worked with this virus?
-------------------------------------------------------------

No, but they are basing their opinions on conjecture, not scientific proof, and that was, and still is my point. They are only opinions, informed ones perhaps, but still just speculative. It can be my "informed opinion" that going out on a cold day causes pneumonia but it may not be so. Similarly with Linus Pauling and Vitamin C. He was a Noble Laureate but his later "work" and opinions were bunk and have never been confirmed.

Again, where are the hordes of dead dragons?

Selling sick and dying animals to unload them on unsuspecting individuals is morally reprehensible. But selling outwardly healthy dragons with full disclosure of their status (tested positive, tested negative, not tested) is not. With full disclosure the buyer can make as informed decision as is possible.

 

[Sunshinedragons]

More of what Jim O Previous Post, no in order of his posting

Despite the fact that I believe that certain people have made statements that are perhaps best termed less than forthright, I wanted to make some comments about this issue.

As is likely true, much if not most of the nearded dragon stock in this country has come from small group(s) of imports. There has been so much "cross-pollination" of breeders that it is likely that adenovirus has passed through or resides in the collections of most if not all major breeders. If that is the case where is the epidemic of deaths?

The information that has been posted, while no doubt relevant, is opinion, and is based on anecdotal experience (I have seen...) and is not based on prospective peer reviewed studies.

There are multiple serotypes, or strains, of adenoviruses. Some are probably more likely to be pathogenic in bearded dragons than are others, but no one has done the studies to find out which ones those are. Think about E. coli and the recent outbreak. We ALL have E.coli in our large intestines, jut not those particular strains that cause disease.

A negative test does not prove negativity. Even if the test could absolutely rule out virus in the feces (which it does not do completely as there are admittedly false negatives) that only proves that there was no virus being shed at that time. Think about having a cold sore, a herpes simplex virus infection. Those are persistent infections that are sometimes active and sometimes inactive (BTW some people with cold sores develop life threatening herpes encephalitis too). One is not shedding herpes virus every day so one negative test is not conclusive. Neither is one negative fecal for adenovirus. In fact, we don't know how often an infected, asymptomatic animal sheds virus as those studies have yet to be done.

Another analogy is the bacteria N. meningiditis, the causative agent in meningococcal meningitis. It may be present in 1-2% of "healthy" people's oro-nasopharynx up to perhaps 20% of people living in crowded conditions such as prisons, army boot camps, and college dormitories, but very few go on to have disease. This bacteria is a killer once it causes disease, but does so in very few people who carry it.

So...what are people to do with all of this? I don't know. For people who have had several animals die from this, well they were probably infected with a more pathogenic serotype or had dragons with some other immune system problem. That's a guess but until there is actual data, which may never come, it is a reasonable one.

For the rest of you...well I have some dragons that I'm not planning to breed and I'm not going to test them. But if I were going to breed them I'm not sure that I would because I'm not convinced that I have enough information to know what to do with the results of the test, especially if they are negative. I would have a hard time saying my dragons are truly negative with one or even two negative tests. And even if they are positive, they are thriving and appear quite unaffected. Until you know what to do with the answers, asking the question only leaves you with more questions.

The scientific studies need to be done, for sure. But don't expect that to happen anytime soon as they cost lots of money to do. Until then, it's Russian Roulette no matter what choice a breeder makes. But I, myself, with my scientific background, would not take one negative fecal as "proof" of an uninfected colony by any breeder.

 

[Sunshinedragons]

Sunshinedragons Original Post From Ivy League College top ranked Vet School/Hospital

WE ASK …WHAT DID JIM O INDICATE THAT WE DID NOTE PREVIOUSLY POST!!!!!!!! BELOW IS WHAT WE POSTED AND KEPT THE POST GOING.

University of Penn Ivy League One of the Top Ranked (In the top 1-5) Vet School/ Hospitals

Neither Nicole or I are researchers in adenovirus disease or biology. Active
researchers in reptile virology say they know very little about the biology of
this virus.

Neither Nicole or I know enough about adenovirus to write a letter that has any
teeth to it. The more we found out for you, the more it was obvious that
experts are confused.

Here are adenovirus facts:

It MAY BE in many colonies of beared dragons in the US.
It has not been found YET in wild bearded dragons.
No one can predict if a bearded dragon that is positive will die and/or transmit disease.
There is no test that can proclaim a bearded dragon totally free of this disease while the bearded dragon is alive.
It may not even cause disease.............


In a message dated 10/6/2006 4:39:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes:
Bruce,
Just wanted to give you an update on things over here! I'm working on
composing
the letter for you all and sending it off to Karen to edit and and her
comments. …………………………………………

-Adenoviral infections in the inland bearded dragons (Pogona vitticeps) appears
to be a prevalent infection in North American bearded dragons and is not a
recognized infection in Australian bearded dragons.

It seems that most breeding colonies in North America are infected with this disease.
********-There is a big difference between adenovirus infection and adenovirus disease.<<<<<<<<<<
Not all bearded dragons that are infected with the virus will go on to develop disease.

-Currently, there is not a lot of published data on adenoviral disease in
bearded dragons. ,,,,,………

-There is an absence of controlled studies looking at the transmission,
virulence, screening and control of adenovirus in bearded dragon colonies.
-Based on other reptile veterinarians that we have contacted as well as current literature, it seems that bearded dragons can be persistently infected with adenovirus. It is supsected that stress in these animals (shipping, inadequate husbandry, surgery, laying eggs) can result in disease. We do not yet know if these persisently infected animals can shed the virus and infect other bearded dragons but it is possible.

This is a very, very, very complicated issue. Complicated b/c of biology and
complicated b/c of politics of those who have an economic piece of this pie-
owners, breeders, sellers, vets.

Here is our simple answer- we just don't know how best to advice anyone with a
beardie colony b/c the science has yet to be worked out. I honestly don't know
what I would do if I were a beardie breeder. This is why I don't breed
animals.

Hope this helps.
Karen

In a message dated 10/17/2006 5:58:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes:
Dear Bruce

First, let me say we all work as a group and even though I could not make it
down to the appointment on Monday, I knew what Nicole was going to say and what
she was going to write and I back her and agree with her 100%.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From a reputable up scale’s Breeders Vet ( We will get her name)…. We can do this test if you would like (if you are feeling pressure from your clients/colleagues), however, I agree with Dr. Stacey that it may be more expense than useful information

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are givens that we can say are fact:

>You are a passionate and compassionate advocate for your beardies and your business.

>You are trying to do what no one has ever done.

>You care about enriching and improving more than just the beardies in your charge; you strive to improve the lots of all reptiles.

>We love people like this and we try very hard to work with them. We give away
our services to these people as much as we can b/c we only want the best for these animals. And it is a great way to teach our students.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sunshinedragons has been the only Breeder that was proactive and spent Thousands of dollars on rearch, let alone stopped breeding in peak season, stopped selling in Peak season UNTILL WE RESEARCH, AND RECEIVED THIS INFORMATION.
Full Desclosure>>>>> it’s time
AT THAT POINT WE SENT A MASS MAILING TO ALL OF OUR CUSTOMERS!

WE ALSO CONTACTED BREEDERS, AS WELL AS OTHER CUSTOMERS DIRECTLY AND LET THEM KNOW THE POTENTIAL RISK.

We even told them about the post and to follow it’ Not a single person took us up on our offer to either cancel their order, or send back their previously purchased Bearded Dragon

Based on the information we researched, we then went forward.

We have been accused of selling Adeno diseased (black Plague was the impression) without any proof what so ever. Some one prove we sold Adeno diseased Dragons, or even Adeno positive Dragons.

No Proof at all, just false accusations, rumors, innuendo’s. NO PROOF, NO ONE SHRED OF EVEIDENCE THAT WE SOLD ADENO DRAGONS.

Dante was necropsy & No Adeno showed up. The Breeders we tested all showed negative results except one yearling that was inconclusive at best, yet she never had any babies.

So far everyone that tested our dragons received negative results ( which we admit doesn’t mean anything). Nevertheless using these results to conclude we have an Adeno free colony of breeders would be misleading at best!

We admitted that some baby “bins” tested positive for Adeno. Yet they are healthy, and being a feces oral transmitted disease it could have passed right thought. No one can prove we sold those babies, or that they even show positive for Adeno when individually tested, let alone the Adeno disease.

We would like retractions & apologies from everyone and anyone who stated we sold Adeno diseased or positive Dragons unless they have proof. We would like retractions as well as apologies from anyone that said we are selling sick, ill diseased Dragons unless they can show the proof.

In fact people now testing are showing negatives!

Your mob mentality, Witch hunt came up with no proof after 34 pages of posting.

We are having our attorneys read the entire post, to evaluate if any laws were broken, or there are any basIs for libel, slander etc.

We will not allow people that may not agree with how we run our business, or resent us or any reason spread Vicious Lies, Malicious attacks, and unsubstantiated statements, or rumors. Bet on it!

Yet we are as concerned about the next person, as well as the previous people that MAY HAVE HAD UNSUBSTATIATED ATTACKS ON THEM OW MAY HAVE THEM.

Bruce Kalish

 

[Sunshinedragons]

Jason from Beardies biz Dragon was a gift! He returned it!

 

[shadi11]

Denise, can you post proof of the testing being negative for all to see? Same goes for Sunshine. If you both have negative dragons would it be so hard as to post the results to the public on here.

 

[Iguanalady]

My vet called me with the results, I recieved no paperwork. This is getting rediculous!! I don't lie to protect my own a**! I am proud of my dragons, my vet said they are negative and that is good enough for me. Comon' people, give it a rest!

 

[CheriS]

Now Bruce, there ya go again mixing words up and stating half truths (which for you is not bad considering you have a hard time with truths at all!)

Nice of you to pick out what you want and ignore the rest that someone says, just like you do with those mailing you use to mislead people that experts are actually telling you these things. ... which amazingly not only to they all deny that, one even wrote a letter to the community to make sure others knew his position and that he never told you or anyone that... remember? or do I need to take up more space here with pasted copies? Previous Post, no in order of his posting;/b]... at least you admit your scrambling them up now!

Is this your same Ivy League College top ranked Vet School/Hospital that has told me and 2 others people who contacted them that they never made these claims to you, you took them out of context, misquoted or are paraphasing only what you wanted to hear and not the facts?

Jason's dragon was not a gift, you send it to him to pay a long standing debt you owed him that you had not paid for a couple of years.... rememberm you did this to others too? ... just cause they do not want to deal with your threats and post here does not mean there are not dozen others in the same situation with you.. people ar NOT as stupid as you seem to think they are.

Jason said

I can't believe this crap! I just got a free dragon from sunshinedragons which was to repay me for advertising funds I put forward for sunshinecages which in turn didn't yield any sales. I was owed this dragon for a couple years now.

You know I only contacted you AFTER your staff asked me too about adenovirus and your colony, BECAUSE people had babies dying you sold them. I had you blocked in emails prior to that due to your abusive threats and demeaning emails. I sitll have you blocked in my email, but you continue to PM me on this site! You know what they call people like that?

You complained that no one was telling you anything and you wished to be forwarned before this became public. So I was unblocked you as I felt sorry for you and what you were dealing with.... then you lied to me, several times and you got caught! YOU HAVE sent off babies that have died with adenovirus, you were told what adults those babies came from and YOUR the one that told me most of those were already dead, you never owned them (although you did and your website archive proves that) or had been sold off already. Dante did have a necropsy, but you need to tell the WHOLE story, not that he just showed no adenovirus...... that he was too decayed for anyone to tell! The other parents of the infected babies you say did not have a necropsy,... so you do not know why they died so young, while appearing healthy, they just were dead one day with no warning... that does not strick you as strange I am sure, you are use to it. SAo I guess you can get away with saying they did not test positive and again, you can fool some people and keep conning them. You admitted to me you only tested some adults not all of them... so NO, your adults did not all test negative, you only checked a few. You also said you were not going to test any more of them........... and I wonder why?

Are you selling ones that are ill and dying right then? NO, I do not think even you are that cruel or stupid. You are selling the one ones that seem to be surviving and NOT waring the buyers, or breeders..... that also will catch up with you.

Are you selling babies that are not thriving, loaded with parasites and getting critically ill..... yes you are, you know you are as some are contacting you, returning them, getting refunds.. so you may fool some people, but you and I both know different.

There is someone right now that has their seizuring baby at the vets office, that you just sent it to them the end of October and they never knew what was going on, om this thread or what you were doing to them and others........ AFTER you knew they tested positive for the virus.... that is digusting, you are disgusting for putting them through that

This thread has already established that you certainly are a liar, an unethical person, dishonest and con people by deception...... keep telling people to trust you, business is normal ( for you doing this it may be).... who knows, some may be stupid enough to listen to you and you can keep profiting off other's heartbreak and pain. I only hope their bearded dragons do not suffer for it like some are right now that you sold recently.

 

[crazyhorse526]

Bruce you keep dodging the questions people have asked of YOU. How many dragons died under your roof this season? Breeders, and babies both? I know we can count quite a few reading this thread alone, but you must be missing something, or something isn't registering.

This thread is about you, not all the customers you may have sold infected dragons too. Truth is many of them will not know they bought an infected dragon unless/until they breed those dragons, and lose offspring to adeno virus .It's already understood that carriers for the most part will go on to live rather normal lives. Maybe not grow as large, fill out as much, thrive as well, but many will survive. It's the weaker newborn babies, and those with compromised immune systems that are suceptable, and bruce will we ever get that truth, and find out how many of those were lost since adeno virus hit your colony??

It's already known that most will not even notice they have a problem till they pair adeno infected adults, and hatch babies so quite calling for all the dead babies, as those would be right under your nose, and would have taken place 2 weeks from hatch out.. A percentage of them DIE, and the rest go on to carry, and spread it to others, and these are what your sellin Bruce. It's a cycle, and as breeders we are on the for front, and MUST do our best to break that cycle, and not spread a virus that has proved deadly to new born hatchlings, and those with weaker immune systems. Selling sick, and dying animals to unload them on unsuspecting individuals is morally reprehensible PERIOD....


"Selling sick and dying animals to unload them on unsuspecting individuals is morally reprehensible. But selling outwardly healthy dragons with full disclosure of their status (tested positive, tested negative, not tested) is not. With full disclosure the buyer can make as informed decision as is possible".

Let me ask you Bruce, are you informing all people your selling to that their new dragons may be infected? or are you leaving it up to them to happen to stumble over this thread, or be told?

 

[Sunshinedragons]

We will keep the post going as long as you want.

All you want to do is argue. Everyone is tired of being intimidated by you.

Show me the dead dragons as Jim said. show me the customers that have sick or ill, or dying dragons.

False accusations, Bs. Get a life already. Your exhasuting. You divert the topic from adeno dying Black Plague to a personal vendetta against me.

Can't you stick to the topic. where is this black Plauge. the Quotes from U.O.P show there e-mail address, what more do you want. Jim said basically the same thing, why don't you challenge him.

were glad Crasy Horse post for you. It gives us more credibility. Were not backing off of your silly foolish now personal attacks. Trying to divert the real issue to an issue about sunshinedragons.

Get a life.