Adeno infected dragon received from Sunshine
It is with some regret that I reopen this thread. However, because of the bizarre nature of person involved (Bruce/Jon from Sunshine Dragon) I feel I must.
Summary (I only include the detail because he will predictably launch an assault):
On 11/12 I ordered a dragon from Sunshine Dragons ($245).
On 11/25 I cancelled my order after learning of this BOI. His response was that he would refund my money by 12/31 less $5/day "boarding fee" unless the animal sold to someone else.
On 12/1 I received a dragon (container labeled "Dante x Siren Male") meant from someone else in Arizona which Bruce told me to keep or give away.
On 12/21 I received the results from the University of Illinois indicating that the animal tested positive for adenovirus (I did not notify Sunshine of the results at that time since I felt it would jeopardize my refund).
On 12/29 I received a complete refund ($245) for my order
On 1/13 I attempted to learn the DOB of the dragon and because of the negative response from Sunshine decided to reopen the post.
Details (for those who want to know what and why) I have attempted to use
BOLD to separate my comments from email quotes:
Based on the article in Reptiles magazine written by Lauren Scheller, I wrote to Sunshine inquiring about the availability of their dragons. This was the email I received from Bruce/Jon on November 11th:
"Dale,
We are in the process of updating our entire web. It is out of date.
We have 4 incredible Tom babies that we had held back to see how they would develop. We will probably end up keeping 4 as they are stunning, healthy and robust. they are all females. We would be willing to now sell one. None is better than the other in our opinion. they are almost 5 months and would be $ 195 + Shipping.
Regards
Jon Kalish"
On November 12th I ordered a dragon from Sunshine Dragon, the animal to be shipped on November 27th. Several days later my wife was researching care and feeding issues on the web and came across this BOI regarding Sunshine Dragons and the issue of selling adeno infected animals. After working my way through some 40 pages of confusing, and at time bizarre statements On November 25th, I decided to cancel my order with Sunshine. I did not think this would be a problem since this was not an order I had placed for unborn or baby dragons that would not be available for several weeks. It was, as he stated above an animal that was one for 4 he planned to keep but apparently, after my inquiry, he decided to sell. Rather than getting into the brouhaha over the adenovirus, I simply told him that we had decided that it was not the appropriate time for us to be getting a new pet. Based on company policy, he indicated that he would give me a credit. This was him response in an 11/25 email:
"We will do our best to refund your money once we sell the dragons in that clutch. We will look up your file, yet during the holiday weekend it would be simpler if you could let us know exactly what you ordered. What you ordered may make it simpler to resolve this issue in an amicable manner.
Regards,
Jon Kalish"
Since this policy emphasized the pre-selling of yet to be born and immature animals I did not feel that it applied to this situation so on 11/28 I again asked him to refund my money immediately. To which he responded (on 11/28):
"We do recommend the following. Nobody responds to threats very well.
We print and have a policy for everyone. Before making any purchase we suggest you read the company's policy. There is no "small print"
You have choices which yare up to you.
> if we sell your dragons before 12/31/06 we will break policy and refund you payment. There will be a boarding fee of $5 a day beginning today.
> Even if we don't sell your dragon by 12/31/06 we will still refund your payment minus the boarding fee.
> You may take whatever action you feel you wish. We specify in detail our policy on refunds and returns quite simply and in detail.
> You may take possession of your dragon if you wish.
at this point we see no further benefit for either of us to keep reiterating the situation. It is what it is, and legal as per our attorneys. We are making every attempt to accommodate you, and do not wish to be harassed, threatened nor will intimidation attempts change the situation.
Once again , we recommend you either know or ask what companies policy is before you make purchases. Ours is clearly posted and simply defined.
"Therefore refunds are offered based on the following circumstances only:
We will refund money on Pre-sold dragons if notified within 5 days of receipt of payment. We will typically accommodate refunds on pre-sold Dragons if we have sold out of that particular clutch of Dragons including the pre-sold Dragon."
We will do everything possible to accommodate you within the above outline, nevertheless that is it. End of topic."
Bizarre as this was (why did the "boarding fee" begin 11/28 when I cancelled on 11/25?), it appeared I would get at least some of my money back ($245 minus whatever boarding fee he came up with---perhaps up to $160 for the month) so I decided to drop the issue. That was until 12/1 when a dragon appeared at our front door (left by UPS). The previous night, when I was checking my email, I received a notice from UPS that we were receiving an order from Sunshine Dragon. My assumption was that he had just decided to send the animal I had ordered anyway. We rushed down to Petsmart and bought a terrarium and lights. I had to work the next day, but fortunately my wife would be home since it was going to be around 20 degrees in the morning. I told her how to unpack the animal, bathe it and put it in the vivarium. Since there was the possibility of it being an infected animal, I also had her put all of the packing material in the trash (to be picked up that day). When I got home from work that night, it was just after a representative from UPS arrived to pick up the animal because it had been addressed to the wrong person in Arizona (me) and was actually supposed to go to someone in southern Arizona. I explained the possible infection issue and why I did not have the shipping container. I told her that UPS should contact Sunshine and have them send me appropriate shipping material so the animal could be sent to the right person. I wrote to Sunshine the next day, demanding that he send packing material so the animal could be returned to him or sent to the correct person. Childishly, since he had indicated he was charging me a boarding fee I did the same to him (from my email of 12/2):
"When the UPS representative showed up last night to pick up the animal so it could be sent to its rightful owner, we had to decline since we had gotten rid of all of the contaminated packing material in yesterday's trash. I advised them to contact you and have new packing sent as well as a pre addressed shipping label. Since this animal is no doubt infected with adenovirus I am taking an extreme risk keeping it in my home. Before he is released to UPS I will need to see a credit on my VISA account for the original $240 plus $80 for the tank and lights, plus a $5 boarding fee beginning yesterday. Assuming you get the shipping container to me by Tuesday that would be a total of $345.00 (add an additional $5 for each day past Tuesday). In case you have again lost the record of my payment, it is your invoice # 111206c).
Dale James"
Needless to say, he did not take kindly to my email and responed:
"Dale,
I just don't get it. We make mistakes. do you think we wanted someone else's dragons going to your house. They were waiting for it. what would our motive be. We already told you we would refund your money.
The threats and arrogant attitude is beyond me. If you would like us to call and work out the arrangements fine. If you would like to call us our number is on the bottom.
Yet the simplest way to resolve this is a conversation.
Stop with the threats, and cost and all the BS. Why create animosity that will certainly just inflame any resolution.
Jon does the shipping, billing , most responses etc. His name is automatically on the E-mail answers. what difference does it make.
Does anyone think we are on different pages and don't talk. We know we make mistakes, we know we have a ways to go, we know we can't satisfy everyone, we know we have mortalities, and we know we are caring, sincere, honest, people that do our best.
We are not the second coming. We do our best to learn from our mistakes.
You appear to revel in them. The last thing we want is for someone to have one of our pets that doesn't want them.
To resolve how and what should be done the quickest way would be a phone call. we will then summarize what we agree to in an E-mail. Other wise enjoy your dragon.
Bruce"
I then decided to drop my demands for reimbursement other than my original purchase price (even though there were additional costs involved in keeping the animal) and sent the following email to him:
"Bruce, Let's keep it as simple as possible:
1) I need a proper shipping container to send this animal to you or whomever - send it with a pre paid return label to me ASAP.
2) Refund the money for my cancelled order.
3) Don't threaten leaving an animal that I did not order with me."
To which he apparently agreed:
"Donate the Dragon to a school, give it to a friend, Keep it for Free. We will put through a credit no later than 12/20 For the amount you paid us.
That's as simple as it gets.
We will send the right person a replacement ourselves.
We don't want the Dragon stressed by continually shipping, and during this time of the year everything takes longer."
At that point it looked like I would receive my refund….and I had no idea what I would do with his dragon. I decided that I would put it out for adoption, but first needed to have it tested for the adenovirus. I contacted Lou Ann Miller at the University of Illinois and obtained a kit and instructions from her. Because of our travel plans during December I was not immediately able to get a fresh sample (less than 30 minutes old) until mid December and freeze it per her instructions. I got a second sample that was questionable as to the timing (we had gone out for approximately 45 minutes), prepared both samples in the fixative as directed and sent them by overnight mail to her. On 12/21 I received an email from her stating that the fresh sample was definitely positive for adenovirus.
In the interim, Sunshine Dragon did refund my $245. Because of this, and my reluctance to enter this fray, I decided to keep the dragon, see how he did, and if he was healthy adopt him out to someone with the understanding that he did have the adenovirus and should not be put with other dragons or bred. The other option being, if he did not thrive, to have him humanely euthanized.
At this time, the animal does not appear to be alert, does not sit with his head up, has a poor appetite, and will go to bed between 3 and 6pm (lights on from 7am to 8pm). He is 10.5 inches and weighs 70 grams. He is undergoing his first shed since he arrived 7 weeks ago. Not knowing his DOB, I had no idea what his length/weight mean. On 1/13, I sent what I thought was a rather innocuous request to Sunshine:
"Bruce,
Can you give me the birth date of the dragon you inadvertently sent to me (I believe it was supposed to go to someone in Glendale, AZ). The container listed him as a Dante x Siren (male). My vet wants it for his records.
Thanks,
Dale"
This prompted the following response the same day:
"Dale,
We will gladly help anyone that has a Dragon. Yet for someone that canceled their order, gets a free dragon inadvertently, has no conscience or integrity to even offer any type of payment, and now you are keeping it where as before you had what we considered a BS excuse, your on your own.
Regards,
Jon"
After that, I decided to post this notice and sent him the following message (this is the 1st time I told him of the test):
"Most unfortunate, I have been trying to decide what to do regarding this animal which has tested positive for adenovirus. I did not ask for this animal. When the UPS representative came by 7 hours after the animal arrived to pick him up (you apparently contacted them about it being sent to the wrong person), I told them to have you send proper shipping material so I could give it to them. I also emailed you myself and asked you to take it back or make arrangements to have it shipped to the correct person and you refused. I was beginning to feel sorry for you, but you have convinced me otherwise."
That resulted in the following barrage, most of which we have seen before:
"I mentioned to keep it, Donate it, Pet sore or whatever you choose. Obviously you decide you hit the jackpot and just kept it.
We don't need anyone feeling sorry for us, just do the right thing. Not just with me in general. You should have had the box and if you really wanted you could have shipped it to the appropriate person, yet no you asked us to ship bx and everything . I guess in the few hours you had it everything disappeared.
As Far as Adenovirus you should educate yourself on it, and not fall into the wives tales with out any substantiated facts on the disease or its impact.
How big is the dragon, and how much does it weigh. Several major , I mean major breeders obtained them from us knowing and reading what was going on. they all not only kept the Dragons several ordered more! These are Dragons.
Just box it up, get glove warmers from a ski shop and we will issue a UPS pick up. Don't start with send me the box, heat warms etc, the same day you received it or Start with storage charges etc. If you really wanted to you could have simply shipped it to the right person, in the same state. Yet you attempted to "punish " everyone for an error!
We have had Two (2) reports of sick or dying dragons from customers, by "illness". any living creature has mortalities. Ours have bee way below any realist %.W can't figure it out as were not that good, Nobody is.
Every, yes Every major breeder we are in contact with (many), high end have indicated that several of their dragons test positive for Adeno!!!!!, which typically means nothing Those that say no, did they send fresh, not dried out feces???? NO> and that test is questionable anyway..
Either way we are not Breeding Dante or Siren mostly out of pressure. They both tested negative which doesn't mean they were negative, except Dante's. Our dragons are Robust , great Personalities,Bloodlines/Genetics, and full body color.>
Read on and please, please read the attachment.
Our Dragons are among the healthiest, most Robust, Best Cared for in the industry. They typically Grow bigger, healthier, with great bloodlines/Genetics and Color. Yet Read What the Scientific community says from our research. >Read the below comments from medical and scientific community, no just one Vet. There is also an attachment. If you read the entire attachment we will donate the dragon to you and pay for any vet illness bills, not check ups. The attachment from the hundreds of customers, and give you a feel what we attempt to stand for. They May appear long yet it is very quick reading. we will even ship you.
IF YOU TRULY READ THE E-MAIL AND ATACHMENT WE WILL SEND YOU A FREE DRAGON F YOUR CHOICE SHOULD YOU DESIRE. YOU PAY FREIGHT.
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There is much unknown about this Virus except that there is no true way of telling if any dragons have it unless an Necropsy is done. Even then there is no evidence from the few studies that are definitive about the affects. Dragons typically carry a low level of Cocciddia, sometimes pinworm Parasites.
We spent 5 weeks investigating, with top Vets and working with the number one Ranked Veterinary school IVY league University of Penn School/Hospital. Below is what we found out.
In a message dated 10/17/2006 5:58:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
Dear Bruce
First, let me say .....
You are a passionate and compassionate advocate for your beardies and your business.
You are trying to do what no one has ever done.
Neither Nicole or I are researchers in adenovirus disease or biology. Active
researchers in reptile virology say they know very little about the biology of
this virus.
Neither Nicole or I know enough about adenovirus to write a letter that has any
teeth to it. The more we found out for you, the more it was obvious that
experts are confused.
[email protected] writes:
Dear Bruce
********-There is a big difference between adenovirus infection and adenovirus disease.<<<<<<<<<< both would show a positive, yet they are two entirely different things!
Not all bearded dragons that are infected with the virus will go on to develop disease.
Neither Nicole or I know enough about adenovirus to write a letter that has any
teeth to it. The more we found out for you, the more it was obvious that
experts are confused.
Here are adenovirus facts:
It MAY BE in many colonies of beared dragons in the US.
It has not been found YET in wild bearded dragons.
No one can predict if a bearded dragon that is positive will die and/or transmit disease.
There is no test that can proclaim a bearded dragon totally free of this disease while the bearded dragon is alive.
It may not even cause disease.............
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*****Here is our simple answer- we just don't know how best to advice anyone with a beardie colony b/c the science has yet to be worked out.
................
(Karen L. Rosenthal, Director of Special Species Medicine
Mathew J. Ryan Veterinary Hospital
University of Penn.
You care about enriching and improving more than just the beardies in your charge; you strive to improve the lots of all reptiles.
>We love people like this and we try very hard to work with them. We give away our services to these people as much as we can b/c we only want the best for these animals. And it is a great way to teach our students.
(Another top Vet inidicated the following) I spoke to Dr. Stacey, who works with Dr. Jacobson. His feeling is that because most of the bearded dragons in this country are from an original group, that no collection is likely truly "free" of adenovirus. There are also asymptomatic enteric adenoviruses that may not cause disease, but could be identified on fecal samples. Most adenoviruses are opportunistic and cause disease under periods of stress, such as poor husbandry or improper diets.......We can do this test if you would like (if you are feeling pressure from your clients/colleagues), however, I agree with Dr. Stacey testing may be more expense than useful information.
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Jim O's comments -top rated Scientist
Despite the fact that I believe that certain people have made statements that are perhaps best termed less than forthright, I wanted to make some comments about this issue.
As is likely true, much if not most of the bearded dragon stock in this country has come from small group(s) of imports. There has been so much "cross-pollination" of breeders that it is likely that adenovirus has passed through or resides in the collections of most if not all major breeders. If that is the case where is the epidemic of deaths?
The information that has been posted, while no doubt relevant, is opinion, and is based on anecdotal experience (I have seen...) and is not based on prospective peer reviewed studies.
There are multiple serotypes, or strains, of adenoviruses. Some are probably more likely to be pathogenic in bearded dragons than are others, but no one has done the studies to find out which ones those are. Think about E. coli and the recent outbreak. We ALL have E.coli in our large intestines, jut not those particular strains that cause disease.
A negative test does not prove negativity. Even if the test could absolutely rule out virus in the feces (which it does not do completely as there are admittedly false negatives) that only proves that there was no virus being shed at that time. Think about having a cold sore, a herpes simplex virus infection. Those are persistent infections that are sometimes active and sometimes inactive (BTW some people with cold sores develop life threatening herpes encephalitis too). One is not shedding herpes virus every day so one negative test is not conclusive. Neither is one negative fecal for adenovirus. In fact, we don't know how often an infected, asymptomatic animal sheds virus as those studies have yet to be done.
Another analogy is the bacteria N. meningiditis, the causative agent in meningococcal meningitis. It may be present in 1-2% of "healthy" people's oro-nasopharynx up to perhaps 20% of people living in crowded conditions such as prisons, army boot camps, and college dormitories, but very few go on to have disease. This bacteria is a killer once it causes disease, but does so in very few people who carry it.
So...what are people to do with all of this? I don't know. For people who have had several animals die from this, well they were probably infected with a more pathogenic serotype or had dragons with some other immune system problem. That's a guess but until there is actual data, which may never come, it is a reasonable one.
.........I'm not convinced that I have enough information to know what to do with the results of the test, especially if they are negative. I would have a hard time saying my dragons are truly negative with one or even two negative tests. And even if they are positive, they are thriving and appear quite unaffected. Until you know what to do with the answers, asking the question only leaves you with more questions.............
(next post) Cheri S asked about Dr Jacosens studies> Answer from Jim O>
Jim O Response
......... they are basing their opinions on conjecture, not scientific proof, and that was, and still is my point. They are only opinions, informed ones perhaps, but still just speculative. It can be my "informed opinion" that going out on a cold day causes pneumonia but it may not be so. Similarly with Linus Pauling and Vitamin C. He was a Noble Laureate but his later "work" and opinions were bunk and have never been confirmed.
Again, where are the hordes of dead dragons?.........................
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Sunshinedragons has other scientist/reptuble 'EXPERT" VETS information that basically say & feel similarly.
We can only say we have not had one report of any of our Dragons being ill from Adeno, and only 5 babies that we sold in the last 3 years that they know of,passed away. We even realize that by a % that is low and not realistic when dealing with live stock. There is always some mortality. A dragon of ours passed from Cancer!
Nevertheless our care, genetic combinations, and husbandry is second to none. These are not just breeders these are our pets. We are passionate about
You Should read the attachment. Our Dragons are very healthy, Robust and bigger than typical. They are among the healthiest, most personable, proportionate Robust Bearded Dragons in the industry.
Again please read the attached comments. It is fast reading. We will service you like everyone else customer or not, and also sen you a dragon of your choice, yet freight is on you.
We Beg you to read the attachments, and what ever we can do to assist you we will.
Please read, & attachment
Sincerely
Jon"
{END of Email}
There are a lot of statements in there that I have seen before and wonder about, but particularly this paragraph:
" Either way we are not Breeding Dante or Siren mostly out of pressure. They both tested negative which doesn't mean they were negative, except Dante's. Our dragons are Robust , great Personalities,Bloodlines/Genetics, and full body color.>"
It is my understanding the Dante died several months ago.
Bottom line, as of 12/2 he is still selling possibly infected dragons.
Let the diatribe begin….
