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Responding to email notices you receive.
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In short, DON'T! Email notices are to ONLY alert you of a reply to your private message or your ad on this site. Replying to the email just wastes your time as it goes NOWHERE, and probably pisses off the person you thought you replied to when they think you just ignored them. So instead of complaining to me about your messages not being replied to from this site via email, please READ that email notice that plainly states what you need to do in order to reply to who you are trying to converse with.
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IMPORTANT! PLEASE READ!! About the Google Adsense ads being displayed
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Posted 08/15/2025
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Yeah, I know. They are a pain in the butt. But they pay the bills to keep my server running. Just a fact of life, I am afraid.
Want to get rid of them? Simple. Just become a Contributor level member or above and they will be gone. -> Please click HERE."
Is that too much for me to ask of you to keep this site running? Well, sorry about that. I too wish I could get everything for free. But alas.....
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Addendum: 01/10/2026
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Google Adsense ad revenue for December, 2025 was just $30 over the cost of the lease for the server running this site. So, in effect, the money providing the incentive for me to continue running this site is coming SOLELY from the paid memberships and sponsorships here. Which honestly ain't much....
Tentative list of membership options.
- Thread starter WebSlave
- Start date
Glenn Bartley
Herper & Shootist
Rich,
No that is not fair enough! We are not looking to tell you “I told you so…” so after the fact; rather we are hopeful it will not come to your giving up the ship and then being stranded on a desert island with lots of beaches - so we are giving you other ideas now. What would be fair enough would be for you to realize that even those who oppose some or all of the proposed changes may be, and probably are, supporters of you and your site. I think Tom (hope I got that right) was right when he said it appears as if you are getting pissed off at people who have markedly different opinions on this issue – so why did you open it up for discussion if all you wanted were opinions in agreement? You are going down a road that most other web sites akin to yours do not travel in that you will be charging membership fee. If you do not expect to get both plenty of praise and plenty of flack over that, well you don’t understand your current membership or human nature. I do understand though that you don’t need a lot of private messages or emails about this – I would think everything should be posted here in this thread for all to see, and I believe that other site users should respect you enough to do that, and they should respect the full membership enough to share their thoughts with all of us.
You getting upset or mad, apparently has spread to others and evidently results in disrespectful posts being made. For example:
You opened this to discussion and for anyone to say the above was, in my opinion, not called for. There is no going back on what was said by then saying:
I have read all of the previous posts in this thread. I say again, that comment was not called for. People who disagree with the fee to use this website are not babies nor are they crying. They are expressing an opinion other than one that believes a fee should be charged. I do not see that as crying, I see that as disagreement. I do see it as disrespectful for someone to say others are being babies because they expressed a disagreeing opinion in regard to charging fees. People who disagree probably are people who do not believe they should have to pay for what is, in essence, the same service, they receive elsewhere for free. I have heard no crying. I have read people discussing the issues. Let's continue to discuss them nicely.
Rich, you bring up the fact that you will not make money off of charging $10 for the full use of the BOI, yet making money is exactly the reason you keep giving for wanting to charge a fee. Yes I know you gave other reasons too, like preventing double registrations and so forth but; ten dollars will not do much to prevent that will it? So if it will not prevent that or do little to really aid prevention and, if you will not make money off of the fee for ‘full use’ of the BOI – well why then are you being so stubborn by saying that you NEED to charge for full use of the BOI? I really do not understand that at all! I do of course understand a need to make money to compensate yourself for your expenses, and for your time past, present and future. I have had no problem with that ever. That is why I continuously have made donations to you for your site, and why I have continued to do so even as recently as last week or the week before. I have come to the conclusion, because of what you have said, that those donations you receive may not be enough to sustain the site should some of them fall off. I agree with this even though you admitted that you are at the break even stage for current expenses because of donations. I understand wanting to make some money off of this site. I understand wanting to actually make a profit. I understand your wanting to prevent abuse at the BOI, but not how you want to do it. I understand all of that other stuff too. What I really do not understand is how you can look at a great incentive such as the FREE BOI and want to risk reducing its effectiveness. It is the incentive that brings people to and keeps them at this site. I do not unerstand how you can say you are willing to decrease its ability to draw people to your site by charging a fee for it. By decreasing its appeal in anyway, you take the risk of losing members. Since it is the NUMBER ONE DRAW for this site (in its current form), well then you are taking the NUMBER ONE RISK of losing the most members by making the BOI any less appealing than it already is.
You yourself wrote that you expect around 500 paying members. So I wonder, are 500 members the total amount of the membership who have ever posted on the BOI? If you have 750 members posting there now, and you expect only 500 to pay well that decreases the effectiveness of the BOI by a loss of at lkeast 250 members and therefore will have repercussions down the road that will effect your whole site SINCE THE BOI IS YOUR BIGGEST DRAW. Do you see what I am getting at? (I am hopeful no one will refer to it as crying but rather as a real attempt to discuss the issues in a mature manner.) Even if the number of BOI users is less than 500 right now, and even if you still get 500 paying members, you probably will still lose a good percentage of the BOI users. You simply cannot count on the BOI users all paying a fee, or maybe not even on most of them paying a fee. The smaller the BOI usage base gets, the more it looks like a clique, the more it looks like a clique, the less effective it will be, the less effective it will be, the less it will be used, the less it will be used, the fewer people who come to use this site. This will bite you in the behind, and will bring the site down if it happens. Of course this is all hypothetical right now, but worth considering very seriously if you triuly want the site to prosper.
I think you would have more people like myself, who would be willing to donate or to pay for use of the remainder of your site if the BOI remained totally free for full usage. They may not like paying for the rest of the site but, I think they would be more willing to pay, to keep it running, if the BOI remained unemcumbered by a fee system. Under such a plan, those who would still choose the freebie option for the rest of your site – those who would simply register to make posts in regular forums and in a free full use BOI (I hope I remembered that right) would still be drawn here because of the BOI and, its remaining free. You would not lose people because of a fee for use BOI - but you likely will if you do charge a fee to post in the BOI. Since the BOI is the main attraction, think of how many people you will lose at the whole site if you charge for posting at the BOI. Then think of how that translates to money making for your advertisers. If your site is losing members because the effectiveness of it main draw has decreased, your advertisers will be losing potential clients. If they lose potential clients there will be less reason for them to advertise here (whether that be advertising fees charged per ad or an advertisers yearly membership fees or both). If they advertise here less, that will be less income for you. Will 500 paying members spread out across all the payment options you have, and fewer advertising dollars, equal what you get now in donations, plus advertising fees? If that happens, and the risk is greatest when you mess with the main attraction, well then what of the money making?
I am not being critical here, I am being investigative. I wonder – have you really done the math on this or are you just gambling. Are you willing to gamble away this site and have all your time and effort wind up in some time on the beach? I have heard a lot of guess work, but have not seen it supported by much in the way of financial projections and such. If you have not already done that, maybe you should. If you have done it, why not share it with the membership? Again this is not criticism but rather and effort to make you look very closely at what you are about to do, because I do want to see you succeed. I think no one in the membership wants to see you fail with faunaclassifieds.
Again, not to resurrect or beat a dead horse, but to let you know my steed has not even fallen – I would suggest allowing the BOI to remain free. Then if you absolutely must charge a fee, charge one only for other areas of faunaclassifieds. Make sure, also, to charge enough to hire paid help. To want to repay yourself for all your time and effort is great, but you should also make sure to repay those others who have helped you for their time and effort too – even if they are willing to do it for free. If you deserve to be paid then so too do they. By hiring paid help, you can take more time and effort for things like relaxation and recreation.
Consider this too: For you to want to cut back your main drawing factor (the BOI) by making it less appealing makes it sound as if you have a subconscious death wish for the site, and maybe you want to just hang out at the beach for real. Have you taken a vacation lately? Maybe you need one. Go the beach, stay there for about two weeks, do nothing else but hang out on the beach. When you get back home the beach may not look so appealing and, the free BOI may not look so bad after all.
Best regards,
Glenn B
Glenn Bartley
Herper & Shootist
Rich,
To address one of my own points/musings: I guess I am being stubborn too; so I guess I understand why each of us is being so, now that I think of that one point a bit more. We just both want to see the site do its best.... I am hopeful you understand that about all who have contributed their remarks in this thread.
All the best,
Glenn B
To address one of my own points/musings: I guess I am being stubborn too; so I guess I understand why each of us is being so, now that I think of that one point a bit more. We just both want to see the site do its best.... I am hopeful you understand that about all who have contributed their remarks in this thread.
All the best,
Glenn B
riverjop
Feather Ranch
Well in my opinion i think it should be more! $10.00....PLEASE!!!! give me a break! If someone can't...no if someone won't pay ten dollars, why would he be breeding or even keeping reptiles? He/she should have no buisness doing so!
This will be a great way to weed out the dead beats!
This will be a great way to weed out the dead beats!
Glenn Bartley
Herper & Shootist
Your argument that someone who is not willing to pay a fee to this site has little or nothing to do with whether or not they shouldkeep or breed reptiles. I know many people who both keep and breed reptiles and who do not even use this site for free. Since when has use of this site, or payment or support of it, suddenly become a requirement to being allowed to keep and breed reptiles? I am sorry but an argument like that probably makes this site look even less appealing than it had before. I am hopeful that others are not of the opinion that if you do not support this site, you have no right or privelage to be keping and breeding reptiles, amphibians or, any of the other animals discussed within the faunaclassified forums.
As for weeding out deadbeats, from where are you weeding them out, just out of the BOI. Again the clique mentality is taking over, or so it seems. Hey only those of us who pay are good enough to comment about one another. Come now, that is a bit off the mark of the intended purpose of the BOI.
Out of regard for principles I may not remain as an active contributing member of the BOI (contributing posts that is) if a fee is charged for its use. I am somewhat of the belief that such only tends to lend to a loss of validity for the BOI, more so than do the silly, or nasty, or double registered self praising things that some people post there now. To have to pay, in order to speak my words or in order to write them for all to see when I am contributing my efforts, that in essence promote the biggest drawing forum on this site, seems to me as if it would be rather preposterous. So I remain uncertain as to whether or ot I would pay to use the BOI. I simply am not sure if I would pay an actual dues or fee to Rich for this site. I wonder, does that in your opinion make me a dead beat? Does it, in your opinion, make me cheap? Your posts as do those of others, in my opinion, just go on and on in attempts to belittle others who have opinions that disagree with your own. Too bad you would rather not discuss the issue nucely insteasd of being insulting even if only, as I believe you words were so, by implication!
Give you a break you said, no sir you get no breaks from me; not with a reply like yours.
Sincerely with best regards,
Glenn B
As for weeding out deadbeats, from where are you weeding them out, just out of the BOI. Again the clique mentality is taking over, or so it seems. Hey only those of us who pay are good enough to comment about one another. Come now, that is a bit off the mark of the intended purpose of the BOI.
Out of regard for principles I may not remain as an active contributing member of the BOI (contributing posts that is) if a fee is charged for its use. I am somewhat of the belief that such only tends to lend to a loss of validity for the BOI, more so than do the silly, or nasty, or double registered self praising things that some people post there now. To have to pay, in order to speak my words or in order to write them for all to see when I am contributing my efforts, that in essence promote the biggest drawing forum on this site, seems to me as if it would be rather preposterous. So I remain uncertain as to whether or ot I would pay to use the BOI. I simply am not sure if I would pay an actual dues or fee to Rich for this site. I wonder, does that in your opinion make me a dead beat? Does it, in your opinion, make me cheap? Your posts as do those of others, in my opinion, just go on and on in attempts to belittle others who have opinions that disagree with your own. Too bad you would rather not discuss the issue nucely insteasd of being insulting even if only, as I believe you words were so, by implication!
Give you a break you said, no sir you get no breaks from me; not with a reply like yours.
Sincerely with best regards,
Glenn B
Sasheena
Imperfect
I've been thinking of this philosophically...
I go to the store, and I will see something I want that is $9.99 that I don't NEED but hey, it's cool, I have the money just then, so I buy it. Case in point, last summer I saw a cool little mechanical fish I could put batteries in and it would swim around our swimming pool like a real fish. SO cool! So I bought it... yet I might be looking at olives (and I LOVE olives) and I won't buy that can of olives if it's $1.29 instead of on sale for $0.99. Sometimes we are not logical about the things we spend money on. Before I ever paid for anything on this site I felt that the fee would be onerous... NOT because I couldn't come up with $10.00, because obviously, if I can buy a useless fish that swims in the swimming pool, I could... but because it chafes a bit to pay for something that I'm used to as being free. Especially when some months we DO have to lift seat cushions and count out pennies (literally) so we can give our daughter her lunch money.
What I did find though, was that after I donated $25 to this site I haven't regretted the expenditure. I'm not buying a "good reputation".... but I feel that I have a vested interest in the site, and in its doing well. I have taken a certain pride of "ownership" in the site. It's not MY site, but I feel like it is, like I should CARE what goes on here. That pride of "ownership" is something I really care about. WILL I pay $25 or $10 when it comes time to "re-up"... I probably will end up going whole hog (if it's a bountiful time of the year, and I started my membership in a bountiful time of the year). Will I go to a higher level? I can see that I will go to the "free web hosting" level if I ever get to that point where I need it. But in the meantime I am glad that I reached so terribly grudgingly into the pocket for the first time... because that just showed me that, like the stupid mechanical fish, it's worth it to me, and a whole heck of a lot longer lasting!
shrap
Freelance Philosopher
Exactly Sasheena!!!
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Also, I keep seeing the word clique. If that is how people wish to see it that is their choice. I personally do not see it that way at all. I see it as a community. And personally I am willing to do whatever is needed to help OUR community thrive. To improve our community. To make it a better place for everyone. The paying and the non paying. I don't think any more or any less of people that opt for the $250 membership or the people who just want the free part. Because we are ALL a part of this community. This may be Richs site, but it is OUR community. Not our clique.
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Also, I keep seeing the word clique. If that is how people wish to see it that is their choice. I personally do not see it that way at all. I see it as a community. And personally I am willing to do whatever is needed to help OUR community thrive. To improve our community. To make it a better place for everyone. The paying and the non paying. I don't think any more or any less of people that opt for the $250 membership or the people who just want the free part. Because we are ALL a part of this community. This may be Richs site, but it is OUR community. Not our clique.
riverjop
Feather Ranch
Glenn Bartley said:
Oh please Glen!!! Lets get off your philosophical horse! What were talking about is a way for a man to be paid for what he is doing! I can tell you this I wouldn't put all the time in that Rich does, and not be paid! And I'll bet money that you wouldn't either! As for the dead beats, well maybe that was the wrong word! Dead beats would most likely be someone who won't pay or won't live up to an obligation. May be I should have used the word "TROLL" thats what you call these people who come and go, changing there name at will. Poping up here to make some comment then disappearing only to pop up again with another name! What I am saying is, How do you control this...If you have a legitimate idea than tell us? I'm sure Rich would be very interested! Do you think these "TROLLS" will ante up ten dollars every time they change there name just to make some inflammatory comment? I doubt it...how many paypal accounts do you think they will set up just to do this? As for breeding or keeping reptiles, I stand by my statement if someone would not pay a measly ten dollars to help keep a wonderful site like this going, and to further there education of the keeping, breeding, selling and buying of reptiles than so be it. Let them go there own way.....I have no problem with this. But if they value this site they have a choice they can become part of something larger than themselves, something that will not only help themselves but help the larger picture "FAUNA". So I understand your concerns, your worried that fauna may shrivel away, I think we all worry about that! But isn't it obvious that if this site continues at the "same ol same ol"...then it will surely die! I can only hope that if this doesn't work (and I believe it will) than Rich will at least give someone the chance to try their hand, by selling it!
As for you not thinking that you will pay just to post on the BOI, well that is your prerogative and I'm sure some people here will be sorry to see you leave. but it is a choice that YOU made and you will be the one who has to decide if it is a loss!
As for me being nasty, well i wasn't trying to be, I look at this situation with both eyes open, I also try to look at it thru Rich's eye's. I think I know how he feels as I feel I have to a certain degree "walked in those shoes before"
Sorry if you disagree but ....hey this is America if you don't like it then move!
As for getting a break from you!....keep your breaks, you may need them!
Python Dreams
New member
- Joined
- Jul 10, 2002
- Messages
- 320
- Reaction score
- 29
- Points
- 0
- Age
- 53
- Location
- Lake Elsinore, California
riverjop,
I agree completely with what Glen was saying and if you cannot understand where the clique image you are creating is coming from, then re-read your post. Whenever you have a your for us or against us mentality, that is a clique, gang, or whatever you want to call it. Your comments of not belonging in the hobby are some of the most ignorant and selfish comments I have heard in awhile. I cant imagine the thought process that lead to those comments. Here's another one...
"Sorry if you disagree but ....hey this is America if you don't like it then move!"
More pure ignorance. Do you know what it is to live in America? It is about differing opinions and the ability to live together with them. I guess we should all think alike, talk alike, look alike in your perfect world?
Alot of the people that are for it and against have been on this site for quite a few years and only really want whats best for The BOI and Fauna. Their are quite a few arguments that are valid for paying a membership fee and then their are quite a few options on cutting the workload and focusing on the true draw of this website which is The BOI. I do think if membership is necessary that Glen has come up with the best idea of charging for other forums and posting classifieds, etc... while leaving the main draw free. I personally want The BOI to be available and free to everyone and would pay the $10 fee even though I do not use the rest of the site. It is because I truly believe that charging the fee to post in The BOI will be the downfall of The BOI, or at least its real effectiveness, and I don't really want to pay for that. Am I cheap or do I need to get out of the hobby because I would only pay if The BOI were to remain free? I guess so...
Tom Baker
I agree completely with what Glen was saying and if you cannot understand where the clique image you are creating is coming from, then re-read your post. Whenever you have a your for us or against us mentality, that is a clique, gang, or whatever you want to call it. Your comments of not belonging in the hobby are some of the most ignorant and selfish comments I have heard in awhile. I cant imagine the thought process that lead to those comments. Here's another one...
"Sorry if you disagree but ....hey this is America if you don't like it then move!"
More pure ignorance. Do you know what it is to live in America? It is about differing opinions and the ability to live together with them. I guess we should all think alike, talk alike, look alike in your perfect world?
Alot of the people that are for it and against have been on this site for quite a few years and only really want whats best for The BOI and Fauna. Their are quite a few arguments that are valid for paying a membership fee and then their are quite a few options on cutting the workload and focusing on the true draw of this website which is The BOI. I do think if membership is necessary that Glen has come up with the best idea of charging for other forums and posting classifieds, etc... while leaving the main draw free. I personally want The BOI to be available and free to everyone and would pay the $10 fee even though I do not use the rest of the site. It is because I truly believe that charging the fee to post in The BOI will be the downfall of The BOI, or at least its real effectiveness, and I don't really want to pay for that. Am I cheap or do I need to get out of the hobby because I would only pay if The BOI were to remain free? I guess so...
Tom Baker
riverjop
Feather Ranch
Mr. Tom Baker you can call it what you want! You say a clique! I agree with Sammy! I feel that it is more of a community! As for ignorant & selfish? Wow !!! maybe you should re-read the post? I said "Let them go there own way.....I have no problem with this." And I meant it! I really don't care if someone doesn't want to pay! I could care less! It's there decision! But to imply that Rich doesn't have the right to make a decent living is "in my opinion" just downright wrong. Sorry if you disagree..but hey This is America that is your right!
(quote) Your comments of not belonging in the hobby are some of the most ignorant and selfish comments I have heard in awhile.
And where did I say that? WOW!
(my actual Quote) As for breeding or keeping reptiles, I stand by my statement if someone would not pay a measly ten dollars to help keep a wonderful site like this going, and to further there education of the keeping, breeding, selling and buying of reptiles than so be it. Let them go there own way.....I have no problem with this.
Again maybe you should re-read it?
(quote) Do you know what it is to live in America? It is about differing opinions and the ability to live together with them.
I couldn't agree more!
(quote) The BOI and Fauna. Their are quite a few arguments that are valid for paying a membership fee and then their are quite a few options on cutting the workload and focusing on the true draw of this website which is The BOI. I do think if membership is necessary that Glen has come up with the best idea of charging for other forums and posting classifieds, etc... while leaving the main draw free. I personally want The BOI to be available and free to everyone and would pay the $10 fee even though I do not use the rest of the site.
Sure new Ideas are welcome! And I think this is a constructive topic, I hope it helps Fauna and Rich in his decision, I'm sure it's not an easy one!
But don't you think he has already done the numbers on Classifieds, banners and other ways he could raise funds?
(quote) Am I cheap or do I need to get out of the hobby because I would only pay if The BOI were to remain free? I guess so...
Why? Why would you only pay if the BOI was free? Why? If thats not an Oxymoron statement, than I don't know what is? If you would only pay if the BOI was free than why would you not pay if there was a fee?
As for me thinking your cheap because you don't want to pay ten dollars, I don't think so at all! I think it's your choice, maybe your taking a stand, maybe you just don't like the idea...I don't care! And I'm not judging you in the slightest.
(quote) Your comments of not belonging in the hobby are some of the most ignorant and selfish comments I have heard in awhile.
And where did I say that? WOW!
(my actual Quote) As for breeding or keeping reptiles, I stand by my statement if someone would not pay a measly ten dollars to help keep a wonderful site like this going, and to further there education of the keeping, breeding, selling and buying of reptiles than so be it. Let them go there own way.....I have no problem with this.
Again maybe you should re-read it?
(quote) Do you know what it is to live in America? It is about differing opinions and the ability to live together with them.
I couldn't agree more!
(quote) The BOI and Fauna. Their are quite a few arguments that are valid for paying a membership fee and then their are quite a few options on cutting the workload and focusing on the true draw of this website which is The BOI. I do think if membership is necessary that Glen has come up with the best idea of charging for other forums and posting classifieds, etc... while leaving the main draw free. I personally want The BOI to be available and free to everyone and would pay the $10 fee even though I do not use the rest of the site.
Sure new Ideas are welcome! And I think this is a constructive topic, I hope it helps Fauna and Rich in his decision, I'm sure it's not an easy one!
But don't you think he has already done the numbers on Classifieds, banners and other ways he could raise funds?
(quote) Am I cheap or do I need to get out of the hobby because I would only pay if The BOI were to remain free? I guess so...
Why? Why would you only pay if the BOI was free? Why? If thats not an Oxymoron statement, than I don't know what is? If you would only pay if the BOI was free than why would you not pay if there was a fee?
As for me thinking your cheap because you don't want to pay ten dollars, I don't think so at all! I think it's your choice, maybe your taking a stand, maybe you just don't like the idea...I don't care! And I'm not judging you in the slightest.
Glenn, just what is it that makes you believe that all of a sudden people will start donating MORE now if I continue to leave the BOI free to post in? Sorry, I am not going to go through all of your post and cut and post quotes, so I apologize if some things are taken out of context. In any event, sure there are always going to be a minority of people who will just donate out of the goodness of their heart for something they believe in and while certainly it is appreciated, will it be enough? The people I pay money for the servers don't lead me to believe that my payments are optional. The guy that does a LOT of programming here has never once indicated that my payments to him are donations and are therefore optional. When I purchase software packages, upgrades or enhancements, I have never seen an option for payment saying "donation, payment is not required".
Many times people have said I should create a business model to run this site. Well, no, I haven't done that with financial angles, projected income, and all that stuff. Mostly it is just seat of the pants guessing and hoping, using best case and worst case limits. But I think any business model based on solid unavoidable necessary expenditures being paid with ALL voluntary donations where there is no tangible exchange of anything of value for the money (and it could be taken for free anyway without payment) would be just plain stupid to do.
This site really caters to businesses much more then the casual hobbyist. I would think such things would be plainly and intuitively apparent to people who are trying to make their time profitable and worthwhile to them. Even to people just pulling a 9 to 5 job, they certainly have to realize that their time is of value to them, otherwise why are they working?
I keep hearing a few people say "Rich! Charge for ANYTHING BUT the BOI! It's your biggest draw here!" Well Duh! Let's go back to the business model thing again. Maybe a roadside attraction that you just started up for free as a lark one day Suppose you have several different types of rooms in this attraction that you are going to offer an admission fee to after years of providing it all for free. Of all those rooms, one in particular is extremely popular with people. Yeah some of the other ones are visited sometimes and sporadically, and yeah maybe some people do get more use out of them then others. But the main room is where nearly everyone goes and by far the most popular. So the business model being suggested by some people is that some of those other less frequented rooms should be the ones where the admission fee is applied and NOT the main drawing attraction. OK, people, put on your thinking caps and tell me what do you REALLY think would happen in a case like that? I'll tell you what I think. I think those less frequented rooms now being charged a fee would be the ones that wither away and die. Then the ONLY thing at all being used and visited would be the main attraction room. People were only stopping by the other rooms just because they were close by and they would stop in there on the way in or out of the main room. Now that a fee is charged for them, aw the heck with it. That's not why they were here anyway, so why bother?
THAT is my estimate of what would happen if I did what some people are suggesting. No, I am not some business genius. No I don't really know for sure, but that is my best STUDIED guess on what would happen if I did it that way.
As for the accusation of the formation of a clique here because only clique members would be willing to pay to post on the BOI, sheesh, get real. I've heard the accusation of a clique since "day 1" when all access was for free. I thought it laughable then, and will certainly think it laughable in the future as well.
While I am thinking back on some past comments in this thread (or maybe in others, they are starting to run together in my mind lately), there was a statement I made that someone twisted out of context to make it sound worse then the way it was used. It was something to do with "vampires", where I said I felt that when I set down at my keyboard, I felt that I was sticking my hands into a nest of vampires. This indicated that I felt that the time and effort I put into this stuff is sucking away my life, such as a vampire would eat my blood. Some enterprising soul turned that around to make it appear that he believe I was calling everyone on this site as a vampire. Cute. And kind of indicative of the rancorous comments I am getting from some people.
And along that some line, I believe I have been called down by a few people because I have gotten short with them and appeared angry. Well gee, I don't believe anyone has ever heard me refer to myself as Saint Rich, or Saint WebSlave, now have they. Sometimes when I respond to angry, vindictive, self centered, and downright mean posts, I do get angry and I may reply in like kind. Yes, when I started this conversation, I did expect it, but no it doesn't insulate me from the effects. A doctor telling you that "this is going to hurt" doesn't stop it from hurting, now does it?
And Glenn, I have to admit that nothing gives me a lower opinion of someone then when I hear them say "Either you do it my way or I will leave this place. I will take my bat and ball and go home." What that is telling me is that THEY are the ones who have no othere interest in all of the rest that this site has to offer. THEY are the ones ONLY interested in a narrow focus on this site and obviously have NO interest whatsoever in the rest of it nor do they think that those areas where the $10 fee is being imposed is worth that amount of money to them. YOUR principles be damned! What are MY principles in this issue? I purposely kept that fee as low as humanly possible to make it as easy to accept as humanly possible, and I STILL get whining over it!
Tell you what, if this site does become a clique composed solely of those people who are truly interested in it's success and welfare, those people willing to help out in every way they can to insure that it will survive AND thrive, keeping it useful and valuable to them, as well as making it worthwhile for me to keep fighting for, then so be it! THIS site will be for THEM. THIS site will be for those people who are JOINING me in it's maintenance, JOINING me in promoting its survival, JOINING me and doing what is needed to keep it alive and growing. Quite honestly, all I am hoping for is a sizeable core of people who are truly here to help. That's all I need to feel it is worthwhile. The people who come here solely to cause trouble to belittle my efforts and the efforts of other people to try to do some good work here can just go the hell away and stay away.
I've said it before and I will say it yet again, those people who do not feel that what they have to say on the BOI is worth $10 per year to them to be able to say it, have a lot of damned nerve thinking that it should be worth all of the efforts I go through in order to give them a place to be able to say it for free. That I am OBLIGATED by some RIGHT to give that to them.
It is done. Live with it.
Many times people have said I should create a business model to run this site. Well, no, I haven't done that with financial angles, projected income, and all that stuff. Mostly it is just seat of the pants guessing and hoping, using best case and worst case limits. But I think any business model based on solid unavoidable necessary expenditures being paid with ALL voluntary donations where there is no tangible exchange of anything of value for the money (and it could be taken for free anyway without payment) would be just plain stupid to do.
This site really caters to businesses much more then the casual hobbyist. I would think such things would be plainly and intuitively apparent to people who are trying to make their time profitable and worthwhile to them. Even to people just pulling a 9 to 5 job, they certainly have to realize that their time is of value to them, otherwise why are they working?
I keep hearing a few people say "Rich! Charge for ANYTHING BUT the BOI! It's your biggest draw here!" Well Duh! Let's go back to the business model thing again. Maybe a roadside attraction that you just started up for free as a lark one day Suppose you have several different types of rooms in this attraction that you are going to offer an admission fee to after years of providing it all for free. Of all those rooms, one in particular is extremely popular with people. Yeah some of the other ones are visited sometimes and sporadically, and yeah maybe some people do get more use out of them then others. But the main room is where nearly everyone goes and by far the most popular. So the business model being suggested by some people is that some of those other less frequented rooms should be the ones where the admission fee is applied and NOT the main drawing attraction. OK, people, put on your thinking caps and tell me what do you REALLY think would happen in a case like that? I'll tell you what I think. I think those less frequented rooms now being charged a fee would be the ones that wither away and die. Then the ONLY thing at all being used and visited would be the main attraction room. People were only stopping by the other rooms just because they were close by and they would stop in there on the way in or out of the main room. Now that a fee is charged for them, aw the heck with it. That's not why they were here anyway, so why bother?
THAT is my estimate of what would happen if I did what some people are suggesting. No, I am not some business genius. No I don't really know for sure, but that is my best STUDIED guess on what would happen if I did it that way.
As for the accusation of the formation of a clique here because only clique members would be willing to pay to post on the BOI, sheesh, get real. I've heard the accusation of a clique since "day 1" when all access was for free. I thought it laughable then, and will certainly think it laughable in the future as well.
While I am thinking back on some past comments in this thread (or maybe in others, they are starting to run together in my mind lately), there was a statement I made that someone twisted out of context to make it sound worse then the way it was used. It was something to do with "vampires", where I said I felt that when I set down at my keyboard, I felt that I was sticking my hands into a nest of vampires. This indicated that I felt that the time and effort I put into this stuff is sucking away my life, such as a vampire would eat my blood. Some enterprising soul turned that around to make it appear that he believe I was calling everyone on this site as a vampire. Cute. And kind of indicative of the rancorous comments I am getting from some people.
And along that some line, I believe I have been called down by a few people because I have gotten short with them and appeared angry. Well gee, I don't believe anyone has ever heard me refer to myself as Saint Rich, or Saint WebSlave, now have they. Sometimes when I respond to angry, vindictive, self centered, and downright mean posts, I do get angry and I may reply in like kind. Yes, when I started this conversation, I did expect it, but no it doesn't insulate me from the effects. A doctor telling you that "this is going to hurt" doesn't stop it from hurting, now does it?
And Glenn, I have to admit that nothing gives me a lower opinion of someone then when I hear them say "Either you do it my way or I will leave this place. I will take my bat and ball and go home." What that is telling me is that THEY are the ones who have no othere interest in all of the rest that this site has to offer. THEY are the ones ONLY interested in a narrow focus on this site and obviously have NO interest whatsoever in the rest of it nor do they think that those areas where the $10 fee is being imposed is worth that amount of money to them. YOUR principles be damned! What are MY principles in this issue? I purposely kept that fee as low as humanly possible to make it as easy to accept as humanly possible, and I STILL get whining over it!
Tell you what, if this site does become a clique composed solely of those people who are truly interested in it's success and welfare, those people willing to help out in every way they can to insure that it will survive AND thrive, keeping it useful and valuable to them, as well as making it worthwhile for me to keep fighting for, then so be it! THIS site will be for THEM. THIS site will be for those people who are JOINING me in it's maintenance, JOINING me in promoting its survival, JOINING me and doing what is needed to keep it alive and growing. Quite honestly, all I am hoping for is a sizeable core of people who are truly here to help. That's all I need to feel it is worthwhile. The people who come here solely to cause trouble to belittle my efforts and the efforts of other people to try to do some good work here can just go the hell away and stay away.
I've said it before and I will say it yet again, those people who do not feel that what they have to say on the BOI is worth $10 per year to them to be able to say it, have a lot of damned nerve thinking that it should be worth all of the efforts I go through in order to give them a place to be able to say it for free. That I am OBLIGATED by some RIGHT to give that to them.
It is done. Live with it.
nicolai
Philosophical Statesman
WoW Rich...
That was by far one of the longest posts i have seen you make, and you say your so busy
Don't give yourself a heart attack or unnecessary stress worrying about everything, Just remember you have a strong following that is with you no matter what!!!
Well Said!!!!!
That was by far one of the longest posts i have seen you make, and you say your so busy
Don't give yourself a heart attack or unnecessary stress worrying about everything, Just remember you have a strong following that is with you no matter what!!!
WebSlave said:
Well Said!!!!!
Bill_Leverton
New member
I second That Very well saidnicolai said:That was by far one of the longest posts i have seen you make, and you say your so busy
Don't give yourself a heart attack or unnecessary stress worrying about everything, Just remember you have a strong following that is with you no matter what!!!
Well Said!!!!!
WebSlave said:
I agree, well said. Says it all. And with that you should quick lock this thread before one more innocent fool posts "so now I can't read the BOI any more?" and the top of your head just blows completely off!
critical bill
New member
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2004
- Messages
- 5,157
- Reaction score
- 177
- Points
- 0
- Age
- 60
- Location
- Kissimmee, Florida USA
Rich, could I do this?
Is there a way to set up a raffle where I can donate one $10 paid membership per month to...lets say...a person voted most valuable contributor for the month of whatever in whatever free forum? I'm just thinking something like this (small as it is) may promote some productive posts with the prize of a free membership and its privledges.
Perhaps you even know of or heard from a few members who want contribute but simply cannot afford to do so? I would like to help in this area if I can with some membership donations. Just let me know.
If theres another thread setup anywhere for this sort of topic please move and accept my apologies.
Thanks,
Chuck
Is there a way to set up a raffle where I can donate one $10 paid membership per month to...lets say...a person voted most valuable contributor for the month of whatever in whatever free forum? I'm just thinking something like this (small as it is) may promote some productive posts with the prize of a free membership and its privledges.
Perhaps you even know of or heard from a few members who want contribute but simply cannot afford to do so? I would like to help in this area if I can with some membership donations. Just let me know.
If theres another thread setup anywhere for this sort of topic please move and accept my apologies.
Thanks,
Chuck
Roger Jolly
New member
Webbie I'm going to throw a toughie at you. You say this is partly to provide some verification of people posting on the boi right. How about this scenario.... Suppose I sent you a $100 bill cash money in an envelope for a membership token. Nothing else there but me user name. Do I get the membership token???
And by the by the $10 fee is chicken feed. Its going to cost you way more in that in headaches and record keeping for your taxes then it will be worth it to you. Stop bending over backwards for these people. Scrap the low chicken crap level and make it $25 minimum!!! At least the whining will be for a more substantial reason.
Another question. What is the break point??? What decides if this site stays or goes??? You have a $$$ figure in mind??? My opinion is to close the site. Make people pay to have you reopen it. Separate the men from the boys. People dont appreciate what they have till its gone anyway, so show them. Close it down then take a trip for a week. Count the number of payments you get when you get back and decide then whether it is worth it or not. Stop beating around the bush and make people pay for what you have put together here.
Made that 100 mark yet???
And by the by the $10 fee is chicken feed. Its going to cost you way more in that in headaches and record keeping for your taxes then it will be worth it to you. Stop bending over backwards for these people. Scrap the low chicken crap level and make it $25 minimum!!! At least the whining will be for a more substantial reason.
Another question. What is the break point??? What decides if this site stays or goes??? You have a $$$ figure in mind??? My opinion is to close the site. Make people pay to have you reopen it. Separate the men from the boys. People dont appreciate what they have till its gone anyway, so show them. Close it down then take a trip for a week. Count the number of payments you get when you get back and decide then whether it is worth it or not. Stop beating around the bush and make people pay for what you have put together here.
Made that 100 mark yet???
John please reread my first post. The fee isn't that big of a deal too me all in all. I at this time will choose to not be a member for my own reasons in addition to those that I have already let you know. It is not out of spite or anything like that. Even when I do choose to become a member I would still have the same argument about the BOI. At this point I honestly don't use the BOI much because I have a good sense of whom I'm going to purchase from. I only used the BOI once for my own purpose a little over a year ago and had I had to pay 10 dollars at that time to post I would of just thought screw it. The truth is I'm glad I was able to post and got many encouraging words from the members that made me decide to continue my reptile obsession. From that I have personally purchased from 2 different people on the fauna classifieds. Both turned out great. I purchased from them so that 1. I do not want to purchase anything off of kingsnake and 2. I wanted to give business to those that had posted on fauna.
To Rich,
I'm sorry if I twisted the statements about the vamp thing. That wasn't my intention that was how it seemed when I read it. It wasn't just your statements but a collection of them that got me thinking hey if I don't agree with these things I'm probably not wanted here. To use your analogy about the main attraction and less viewed areas. I just see that analogy a whole different way. I see the BOI as the attraction and that is how you get the people here, once they are here then they will say hey since I'm here I will check out the rest of the site and the classifieds etc... Which is how it happened for me. I guess I see it as for instance a bar having a good band to bring people in and not charging a cover charge. People like the band spend money and remember that bar as a good time. Companies use promotions all the time to draw people in and once the people come in they spend money and stick around if the company is worth it to them. I think the fauna is worth it to people and the BOI should be the draw.
To John
I believe you were referring to me but called me Mike when you stated
5. I hope you decide to remain an active member of this site as everyone that is involved from the smallest hobbist to the largest breeder can all benefit from the information and experiences that are shared on this site.
I appreciate the class you have shown.
To validate what I am saying I will become a member.
Mark Westberg
To Rich,
I'm sorry if I twisted the statements about the vamp thing. That wasn't my intention that was how it seemed when I read it. It wasn't just your statements but a collection of them that got me thinking hey if I don't agree with these things I'm probably not wanted here. To use your analogy about the main attraction and less viewed areas. I just see that analogy a whole different way. I see the BOI as the attraction and that is how you get the people here, once they are here then they will say hey since I'm here I will check out the rest of the site and the classifieds etc... Which is how it happened for me. I guess I see it as for instance a bar having a good band to bring people in and not charging a cover charge. People like the band spend money and remember that bar as a good time. Companies use promotions all the time to draw people in and once the people come in they spend money and stick around if the company is worth it to them. I think the fauna is worth it to people and the BOI should be the draw.
To John
I believe you were referring to me but called me Mike when you stated
5. I hope you decide to remain an active member of this site as everyone that is involved from the smallest hobbist to the largest breeder can all benefit from the information and experiences that are shared on this site.
I appreciate the class you have shown.
To validate what I am saying I will become a member.
Mark Westberg
Glenn Bartley
Herper & Shootist
You misunderstood me about me supposedly saying more people will donate out of the goodness of their hearts if the BOI stays free. I said you would have more like me, meaning the ones already here would opt to stay as opposed to leaving if you charge for the BOI.
As for your saying that nothing gives you a lower opinion of someone than them saying they are taking off because you are not doing it their way, are you referring to me? I see those THEYs but I also see you get right back in my face and say my principles be dammed – and after all my principles came up when I mentioned my consideration of possibly leaving this site! If you are referring to me, you are again way off the mark as to anything I have said in the last 15 to 20 pages or so. There is a big difference between what I actually said and what you seemingly try to make it appear I said. I have not recently said I would leave this site if you charged a fee. I changed my mind early on, and arrived at the conclusion that a fee or some sort of advertising charges for sale ads was an ok thing. I just don't think it wise for a fee for the BOI, nor do I like the idea, nor do I think it is necessarily one that fits in with my principles (but of that I am somewhat uncertain). What I did say was, in essence, that I would have to consider whether to pay or not, and to stay or not. That is my choice, whether your opinion of my principles is high or not. There was absolutely no reason to say my principles should be dammed - you really ought to be ashamed of yourself.
By the way, if my principles are so dammed awful then why do I give donations to you for this site. One of my principles is that I give when I get, tit for tat so to speak. I did not think you thought that was a bad principle when you accepted my money last week, or when you accepted it over each of the last few years. I am not being a wise guy here; I am however saying that it is kind of weird how my principles are ok by you when I agree with you or when I make a donation – but apparently they are no good if we disagree. That is how it seems to me anyhow.
I help you out because you have a great site. I don't know if it will be so great in my estimation if the BOI becomes (or I guess it has become) a fee for use forum. I think that sucks, that is my opinion. My opinion is based upon a principle you had once upon a time for keeping this site free, and for allowing anyone to have free access to the BOI to rat out dirt bags. Sure you can change it but, I do not have to change to suit you. Or do I have to change mine to match yours to be a good guy in your eyes??? If you don't like that principle of mine, what can I say but, our principles do not have to be in agreement for you to reply to my posts courteously. So we disagree – big deal. I will not get nasty like, I believe, Overton Pratt became. I will not tell you:
No that was not nasty, in my opinion now that I give it a second thought, that was absolutely one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. Then again that silly statement points to this: I am not sorry that I disagree with you or that you disagree with me. We also happen to agree on lots of things. If however, I need to agree with you to get your respect, man was I wrong about you but; I have to say that statements like “YOUR principles be dammed!” sort of make me think you are dispensing disrespect by how much someone disagrees with you, and maybe you also dole out respect by how much someone agrees with you.
By the way, what you get from me is not whining. What you get from me is well thought out discussion of the issues at hand. If I was whining about a measly $10 I would certainly not have given to this site what I already have given it. No it is not a huge amount, but it was almost always more than ten bucks. And no, I do not want my money back, I gave it to you because I appreciate the things you have given me in this site.
I do realize that no matter how much input I give to you, you will do it your way because it is your site. That is fine by me. I was trying to help with some suggestions and if you do not like my manner of making suggestions you can either screw yourself into a tizzy all over again and call me some more bad stuff or imply bad things about my principles or; you can take them with a grain of salt. The thing of it is though, my principles will not be dammed simply because you say so; they are my principles not yours. If you don't like them tough for you, I like them just fine.
Have a nice night and, since I seem to get you so riled up, you won't hear from me on this again. As I said my intent was other than that; my intent was to help you out. Well, even a thick headed guy like me sooner or later realizes that it is time to shut up and give up. As my son would say: Peace Out!
Best regards,
and good luck with the new system,
Glenn B
As for your saying that nothing gives you a lower opinion of someone than them saying they are taking off because you are not doing it their way, are you referring to me? I see those THEYs but I also see you get right back in my face and say my principles be dammed – and after all my principles came up when I mentioned my consideration of possibly leaving this site! If you are referring to me, you are again way off the mark as to anything I have said in the last 15 to 20 pages or so. There is a big difference between what I actually said and what you seemingly try to make it appear I said. I have not recently said I would leave this site if you charged a fee. I changed my mind early on, and arrived at the conclusion that a fee or some sort of advertising charges for sale ads was an ok thing. I just don't think it wise for a fee for the BOI, nor do I like the idea, nor do I think it is necessarily one that fits in with my principles (but of that I am somewhat uncertain). What I did say was, in essence, that I would have to consider whether to pay or not, and to stay or not. That is my choice, whether your opinion of my principles is high or not. There was absolutely no reason to say my principles should be dammed - you really ought to be ashamed of yourself.
By the way, if my principles are so dammed awful then why do I give donations to you for this site. One of my principles is that I give when I get, tit for tat so to speak. I did not think you thought that was a bad principle when you accepted my money last week, or when you accepted it over each of the last few years. I am not being a wise guy here; I am however saying that it is kind of weird how my principles are ok by you when I agree with you or when I make a donation – but apparently they are no good if we disagree. That is how it seems to me anyhow.
I help you out because you have a great site. I don't know if it will be so great in my estimation if the BOI becomes (or I guess it has become) a fee for use forum. I think that sucks, that is my opinion. My opinion is based upon a principle you had once upon a time for keeping this site free, and for allowing anyone to have free access to the BOI to rat out dirt bags. Sure you can change it but, I do not have to change to suit you. Or do I have to change mine to match yours to be a good guy in your eyes??? If you don't like that principle of mine, what can I say but, our principles do not have to be in agreement for you to reply to my posts courteously. So we disagree – big deal. I will not get nasty like, I believe, Overton Pratt became. I will not tell you:
No that was not nasty, in my opinion now that I give it a second thought, that was absolutely one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. Then again that silly statement points to this: I am not sorry that I disagree with you or that you disagree with me. We also happen to agree on lots of things. If however, I need to agree with you to get your respect, man was I wrong about you but; I have to say that statements like “YOUR principles be dammed!” sort of make me think you are dispensing disrespect by how much someone disagrees with you, and maybe you also dole out respect by how much someone agrees with you.
By the way, what you get from me is not whining. What you get from me is well thought out discussion of the issues at hand. If I was whining about a measly $10 I would certainly not have given to this site what I already have given it. No it is not a huge amount, but it was almost always more than ten bucks. And no, I do not want my money back, I gave it to you because I appreciate the things you have given me in this site.
I do realize that no matter how much input I give to you, you will do it your way because it is your site. That is fine by me. I was trying to help with some suggestions and if you do not like my manner of making suggestions you can either screw yourself into a tizzy all over again and call me some more bad stuff or imply bad things about my principles or; you can take them with a grain of salt. The thing of it is though, my principles will not be dammed simply because you say so; they are my principles not yours. If you don't like them tough for you, I like them just fine.
Have a nice night and, since I seem to get you so riled up, you won't hear from me on this again. As I said my intent was other than that; my intent was to help you out. Well, even a thick headed guy like me sooner or later realizes that it is time to shut up and give up. As my son would say: Peace Out!
Best regards,
and good luck with the new system,
Glenn B
Glenn Bartley said:
No Glenn, you are missing the point completely. You seem to have the opinion that no matter whether or not YOUR opinion is in the minority, I am somehow obligated to take your opinion and use that as my guiding light.
Take a look at the results of the poll I ran: http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=314
As of now, it is 120 in favor of me charging, and 39 against. Hardly puts you in the majority, now does it? So tell me, just what is it about your opinion that makes you feel that I should ignore my own gut feeling about how to do this PLUS what the majority of the people bothering to vote have indicated as well?
You sir, are merely repeating yourself, indicating to me that you are having difficulty understanding that I just do not accept your opinion as the one I should follow. The fact that you continue to do so, whether it is correct or not, leads me to believe that you are having trouble understanding that I DO UNDERSTAND what you are saying, but I just DO NOT AGREE. And you feel, for some reason, that the constant repetition will FINALLY cause me to understand your point of view and therefore agree with it.
Quite frankly, the email notices I sent out got only a small fraction of replies back, but the ones I did get back were overwhelmingly favorable. But what about the rest that did not reply? Beats me. They are an unknown. But their lack of reply, and the low turnout in the poll for voting just indicates to me that most people really don't give a rip either way. If the majority had been overwhelmingly against this plan, then yes, I would have felt I was in error and would have backed down from my plan.
But this is simply just not the case here. So perhaps this will really not have much of an effect at all on what becomes of this site. Who knows? But I guess we're about to find out.........