The dreaded IBD

[dumje]

Bacterial....were they exposed to a period of cold....dirty water....dirty cage?

 

[jamiryan365]

No they werent. i did change water in my babies just to work on the factors. everyone else is still alive. im not sure. im going to get the report on monday and see more details

 

[dumje]

it could of just been bad luck...dirty rats...the bacteria was in something...and they died from it unfortunatly

 

[Snake-Queen]

Melissa, how long ago did you lose your collection? What were the symptoms?

Sorry for the delayed response, busy with shows and babies.

It has been about 5 years since I lost my collection.

The only ones that showed symptoms before dying were 2 ball pythons, the boas just died.
The balls wouldn't move & would flip over on their back. When they started this, it was a matter of days before they expired. I had my male ball euthanized because I couldn't watch him die like I did the female. A necropsy was done and samples sent to the University of Florida (I think so, if not, somewhere in FL)

This all happened because of improper quarantine (fairly new keepers of more than one species of snake).

 

[jamiryan365]

i got the results report today. i am going to try to attach a copy of it for you guys to check out. i am not sure what any of it means!!!

 

[salottimc]

It appears they died of a bacterial infection that spread to their organs. The root cause of their suppressed immune system was not listed, but it could have been stress. Some of the snakes might have been more stressed than others allowing this infection to take hold.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Sorry for the delayed response, busy with shows and babies.

It has been about 5 years since I lost my collection.

The only ones that showed symptoms before dying were 2 ball pythons, the boas just died.
The balls wouldn't move & would flip over on their back. When they started this, it was a matter of days before they expired. I had my male ball euthanized because I couldn't watch him die like I did the female. A necropsy was done and samples sent to the University of Florida (I think so, if not, somewhere in FL)

This all happened because of improper quarantine (fairly new keepers of more than one species of snake).

Sounds extremely familiar, right down to not being able to stand seeing them die. Did Dr. Jacobson at UF Veterinary School work on your necropsies?

Jami -- According to that necropsy report, your snake died of coccidia infection that necrotized (killed tissue) in the intestine and then spread the protozoa to the liver via blood circulation. Macrophages are members of the immune system that destroy invading cells and try to repair damaged cells, but they weren't in high enough numbers to halt the infection. Coccidia is nasty and is easily spread to other animals. I would highly recommend getting all of your snakes treated with a round of Albon in case it spread. Deaths from it are rare, and the female ball python that died sounds like she likely had a weakened immune system and/or injury in the intestine that allowed it to migrate. Many animals carry coccidia with little symptoms, especially snakes that don't defecate daily. Coccidia infects dogs, cats, ferrets, reptiles, etc. and is zoonotic -- meaning it also infects humans. Try to get some fecal samples from your snakes and have your vet test them for Coccidia. Same if you have any dogs/cats in the house. Luckily it's easily treated in the majority of cases so your collection should be just fine.

 

[JordanAng420]

Jennifer,

I believe you're mixing up the intestinal parasite Coccidia and the type of bacteria called Coccobacillus. The snake didn't have Coccidia.

Here's what I got out of the report:

The report said that the snake most likely passed away from necrotizing enteritis, which is basically necrotic lesions in the intestine, caused by an overgrowth of bacteria, which I guess in this case are the Coccobacilli.

It also said the snake had mild hepatic lipidosis, and hepatic necrosis (fatty liver, and death of some parts of the liver), believed to be caused by bacteria from the intestine that "ascends" to the liver. The pathologist mentioned that a lot of snakes (in his experience) tend to have fat accumulation in the liver, which may or may not be significant in the final diagnosis.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Good catch. I did mix them up. Just finished Hematology and Parasitology this quarter, have Advanced Clinical Skills and Advanced Hematology the quarter after next. Sooooooo much info, too little grey matter space.

What is it that would cause fatty liver in snakes? Poorly fed feeder rodents resulting n high fat content? Just wondering if this is a chronic thing in captive snakes or all snakes. We're doing basic exotics and pocket pets this coming quarter so it might make a perfect topic for my paper.

Also, what is the risk of transmission to the OP's other snakes?

 

[AGoodwin]

.....

What is it that would cause fatty liver in snakes? Poorly fed feeder rodents resulting n high fat content? Just wondering if this is a chronic thing in captive snakes or all snakes.......

I have read that over feeding can cause fatty liver disease in snakes.

 

[R. Eventide]

I've seen hepatic lipidosis in leopard geckos that don't re-absorb follicles/eggs properly. I assume this is possible in snakes too...? Could that be an issue?

 

[jamiryan365]

*sigh*
i very well could be quilty of over-feeding. if my babies eat and seem like they want more, i give it to them (i tend to feed smaller rodents than my snakes can handle, i hate seeing my babies struggle to get something down, so they get two if they want it)- they are all healthy body weights.

as far as my feeders go, they are on a high protein diet. top quality feed is all they get- healthy rats make for healthy snakes!


....except in this case i suppose lol!

 

[JordanAng420]

FWIW...In my opinion, most reptiles in general have issues with hepatic lipidosis. A lot of the necropsies I have seen or assisted with, there have been issues with fatty liver. Unfortunately, I now work at a clinic that only sees cats and dogs, so it's been a little while since i've been involved with reptilian internal medicine, but I do know Mader has a good section on it in his Reptile Medicine book. I'll have to look it over at some point.

 

[reticguy76]

ive been in the understanding that although fatty liver disease has been considered "common" in reptiles, particularly reptiles that that go days between feedings (ie, snakes), that the liver and other digestive organs have adapted to this over the years of their being around. everyday eating reptilel (ie, lizards, tortoises, etc) can be subjected to fatty liver disease if they are not eating when/how they are supposed to (excluding hibernation for those species).
in my experience in reptile/amphibian medicine, snakes generally do not get fatty liver disease unless they are predisposed to an underlying issue causing them not to eat, when their bodies need to. since hepatic lipidosis is the result of animals not eating regularly (as we see tons and tons of cats in emergency and internal medicine that get fatty liver as a result of an underlying issue causing them not to eat (ie, fiv, felv, infection, etc), the only way i can really see snakes getting fatty liver is if they have underlying issues and the snakes arent eating the way their bodies need and require them to.
keep in mind also, there is still a lot unknown about ibd. did it miss it, was the snakes organs actually submitted for ibd analysis ??

i have also heard of some lizards that have re-absorption of yolks leading to fatty live, i suppose that could be an issue in pythons and colubrids, however, not in this case as they are 2012 babies

 

[jamiryan365]

ryan- you say it has to do with them not eating as they are supposed to- could that mean eating too much as well? because all three of these snakes were fantastic eaters. never had a problem with them refusing meals. so if it could mean over-eating, that very well could have been a helping factor. BUT- they were fed every four to five days.

i dont know. just throwing around ideas!

 

[reticguy76]

fatty liver is the result of not eating normally or regulary, what your body requires

fatty liver disease is usually the result of an underlying disease causing the animal not to eat.

for example, its more prevelent in cats than dogs in small animals. usually because of an underlying disease or behavior issue, the animal stops eating, and stored fat from the peripheral areas of the body are sent to the live and stopped and stored there and the liver becomes "infected" with excess fat and then that continues the animal to not want to eat and its a downword spiral. animals that eat as infrequently as snakes, true hepatic lipidosis is unlikely here

 

[jamiryan365]

So is this the 'bacteria' that the report is talking about?

 

[jamiryan365]

well, i lost another snake last night. same exact way the others went. i got him out to feed, he was moving around and acting normal, i put him in the tub with a feeder, left him for about 30 mins with it, and he was dead when i came back.

this snake was especially devastating to lose, he was the first one i bought when i decided to start a collection. if anybody has any insight as to what is REALLY going on here, please let me know. or even if there is a way to save the others. i have TWO babies left out of everything i bought.

help

 

[hhmoore]

I was about to respond, but I see that Dr Porcher is viewing this thread....no sense in me trying to deal with it, when the DVM is in

 

[jamiryan365]

Haha, well maybe he can provide some insight!