The No-Insults Hybridization Debate

[Seamus Haley]

Take a glass of water.

Call it a captive population of animals.

Add a drop of iodine. The water is no longer and NEVER AGAIN WILL BE pure.

People breeding hybrids may themselves be immaculately careful and exactingly sure to spread information about their crimes against nature. The people who buy them from the original producers... not so much. And the people who buy from secondary sources even less so. A lot of hobbiests who get the notion to breed really have a very poor grasp of things to begin with and I am fully aware, from personal experience, that many of them are simply ignorant to the point where they don't understand the concept of a "species" and certainly don't understand that say... a Jungle Corn isn't just a color phase of cornsnake. Anyone condoning the creation of hybrids has a squirt gun full of iodine and a blindfold on in a room full of glasses of water.

There are a few... very few but they exist... examples of animals which are not categorized as a single species which do have regular examples of intergradiation in the wild (Like say... gabboon and rhino vipers... or florida and brooks kings). Which such evidence of natural interbreeding is found, the taxonomy needs to be revised. It does not constitute an excuse for crossing blood pythons with ball pythons or shoving together colubrids from three different genera found with most of a continent between their natural ranges.

Anyone who can condone the creation of hybrids is either driven strictly by the financial gains involved or is simply ignorant of the biological factors behind their actions. Or both.

 

[Uncloudy]

I just believe all reptiles need to represented correctly of their heiritage reguardless of whether the reptile in question is a hybrid, pure, locality, morph, or intergrade.
The messing up of a gene pool or pure species can be done on many fronts besides hybridization. To this date I'm sure more gene pools of pure snakes have been tainted by people trying to morph specific applealing traits than hybrids.
What to me it really comes down to is the responsibility of hobbists(like me), breeders, dealers, and importers to practice proper ethics and morals in representation of a any reptiles lineage. I think Sasheena mentioned in a earlier post like what the AKC does with certification of dogs as representatives of a specific breed. That type of certification is probably a pipe dream in the reptile world and urealistic since our hobby isn't mainstream or has the funds or popular support for this. I could imagine an American Reptile Club (ARC) having snake shows where reptiles are judged to represent to best example of that species and just how many dogs were hybrids over many generations there eventually be spot for them.
As a small time hobbiest who doesn't breed why can't I own somethings different and unique?
I stradle the fence on this subject because I can see both points of view and the pros and cons of hybridization. Then I look at the Jaguar Carpets or I have to agree with someone else that the Pyroxcornxking cross is an attraction snake to me, maybe I would like to own one. Isn't it my choice and freedom to do so? As long as people are honest and responsible and the snake in question hybrid or not is properly represented of it's linage/heritage it's an individual choice. It looks like hybrids are here and they are going to stay and some people are excited about the possibilities of what can or may be. I still enjoy local specific and pure species like my Brazilian Rainbow Boa and San Luis Potosi mexican kingsnake (from Applegate lineage) just as much as I would enjoy to have a properly represented unique hybrid in my small humble collection. Like I said I can see both points of view and can emphasize each side of the issue, but I have come to my own conclusion and that is to do or have whatever I want in my collection.

 

[Wilomn]

What is or is not your right to own is not the question of this thread.

It's whether or not hybridization should occur at all.

Two completely different issues.

 

[Uncloudy]

Hhhhhhhmmmmmmmm,
Thread titled, What is your opinion of hybrids?

That was my opinion and view of hybrids and all things inherent.

Cheers

 

[Uncloudy]

?

If hybrids like corns/kings have been around since the 1980's in the last 10-20 years what damage/problems caused/chaos have hybrids done to the hobby?

Is it documented that hybrids are that determental to a hobby that is generally of captive bred, born, and raised animals?

Is the damage done by hybrids worse or comperable to the damage done by breeding of cb morphs, intergrades, and selective breeding for specific traits and how both these practices pollute pure gene pool or locality specific reptiles that would be representative of a particular species?

Some of these questions answered would help me formulate my opinion and whether or not they are going to truly damage this hobby or create more interest in this hobby or fortunately/unfortunately this could be the trend some areas of cb reptiles are going.
Uncloudy

 

[cthulhu77]

Well, even with the blathering of the supposed "scientists", it is obvious that hybridization is ongoing, and will continue to do so. Humans have forced hybrids in every animal group we come across...horses, cows, pigs, fish, dogs, and cats...this is no different.
It would be nice to see people keeping better records of what they are doing, but just out right calling it "wrong" is pissing in the wind.
greg

 

[Sasheena]

A gentle reminder.... This is the no-insults debate. I'm sure there are plenty of insult- and hate-filled threads on the same subject. Nobody has yet fallen for personalized insults, but it would be in the best interests of the thread if we kept it to non-insulting terms, regardless of how general.

You may feel that anyone who does hybridization is evil incarnate.... if so, state your position on why you think it is wrong without adding the personalized notes. I know this is difficult for such an inflammatory issue, but it is best for THIS THREAD that those highly volatile opinions are kept in general terms.

The purpose of this thread is to learn WHY it's considered good or bad, evil, or neutral or the best thing since sliced cheese.... Tell us why without the emotion, and the audience is much more likely to pay attention and make informed decisions.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Creamcicle corns.

There. Reason. Polluted the general population of corns raised and signifigant questions about the purity of any animal that can't have it's lineage traced back to wild collection.

 

[Seamus Haley]

corns raised and signifigant questions

corns and raised signifigant*

 

[Sasheena]

An interesting point Seamus.

Of my 8 corns, I was given two.... they were touted as a "Creamsicle-looking female and a male who might have some Emoryii blood, het for amel"....

SO...with those two, I leave them as the pair they are. I am not breeding them with my other corns, and will market the babies as "Creamsicle and Rootbeer, aka normal-sicle." In point of fact they will not be sold for a profit. I don't know anything about their lineage, nor would I try to pass them off as pure corns to anyone purchasing them. If I ever bought another creamsicle, he/she might be bred to one of the pair I have, but I would not consider the offspring, no matter how "normal" looking to be normal corns. In point of fact I would work very hard to make sure that I didn't breed either of them to a "normal" corn so as to avoid babies with a stronger appearance of the 'normal' corn than the parents themselves possess.

I do believe, however, that just because creamsicles exist that it makes it impossible to believe that every corn on the planet without a pedigree is polluted. Of the corns I have I don't possess a strong lineage, but I'm sure I could easily email those who sold the animals to me and ask to learn what they know of the lineage and so forth and so on.

I think that if someone is to create a hybrid, additional responsibiliity is on their heads to consider the LOOK of their creation...if the hybrid or integrade they have created LOOKS like something it is not, it is important to ask yourself if what you are raising could end up misrepresented further down the line. I suppose that raising hybrids would be a lot easier if you had a snake-eating snake that would not convert to rodents ... you would always have a place to "put" those of your creations that are too nearly identical to a "natural" snake and thus too likely to inadvertently pollute the gene pool.

Anyway... just rambling tonight.

 

[Dennis1]

The Cats Out Of The Bag

First let me say,
im assuming that this thread is not snake specific
There are a whole lot of people who will try to breed hybrids just becuase they can i feel that is becuase they have a god compex
Then there are animal farms where it happens purely by accident
The novice breeder also plays a part in hybrids
And last but not least GREED plays a strong part in it
Im more into Lizards(Chameleons) then snakes but im thinking about getting into the colorful tree boas and pythons

Im not sure if this can be counted as hybridization
but i have seen in the past and continue to see where some people cross different morphs of Panther Chameleons some with good intentions to begin with and some not and when money comes into play say they are something they are not just to get rid of them!
So then someone with little experience or more money thain brains buys it thinking its a pure locale and contaminates the gene pool

Its just my oppinion that hybids cannot be controlled especialy when money is involved

 

[themselves]

wow that sucks, i had this big long "hybrids are ok" speech typed out, and then my computer messed up, and now its gone. ill have it back tomorrow and ill have most of you convinced hybrids arent a crime against nature.

 

[reptilebreeder]

wow that sucks, i had this big long "hybrids are ok" speech typed out, and then my computer messed up, and now its gone. ill have it back tomorrow and ill have most of you convinced hybrids arent a crime against nature.

Riiiiiiiiiiggggght. Dream on. You think you are going to say anything different than has been said for the past decade or two, by other hybridizers.

please people if you dont like what im doing i frankly dont care about your anti hybrid propoganda, so please dont even try to preach your crap to me!)

So practice what you preach.

yeah yeah yeah blah blah blah

Funny, that's the same thing I'm hearing (note, not "here", as in your other thread) when I see your posts.

Seriously, when I use to hang out at KS during the early years, I was a vehement anti hybrid person. I (and others) would boycott anyone who worked with them. There use to be many, many pro/con debates, over the years, after many discussions with level headed rational people like Steve Osborne, and a few others, I have become less so, to the point of ALMOST buying one of Steve's variable crosses, last time I spoke to him a couple years back at the San Diego show. It was one of the most pink, peach colored animals I've ever seem, it looked fake, like it had been colored by pastel and neon crayons. I drew the line though, I still will not work with, nor buy, nor condone, the creation of mutts, but I will consider purchases from a few people who do breed them. Their reputations have to be way above board though, like Steve, and Kevin (N.E.R.D.). Because of non above board breeders however, I (and anyone concerned with having "pure" animals) have to be careful when buying even simple things like Corns (because creamsicle lines are getting mixed in), Grey-bands (because people crossed them for "albinos", and advertise them as albino alterna, when they are not) Sinaloans (because people wanted aberrancies and albino, like the Nelson's) all the mexicana lines, because those seem to be the "universal" hybrid makers), and these are the cheapies, it goes on from there; Hog island boas, GTP, etc.
To close, the reason I'm on my soapbox is to explain that it may be possible for someone level headed, and sensible, and respectful, (like mentioned above), to have some sway, or convincing powers, but based on the couple of quotes from your other thread, I'm not thinking you fit that catagory.

 

[Bringerofdoom]

Ok, i finally decided to post on this thread.

I am all for hybrids. We have naturally occuring hybrids now, so what is really so wrong about it happening in captivity? Albeit certain species that are interbred would never meet in the wild, but still what is wrong with it? If it did happen and they were found in the wild, it normally warrants a whole seperate specie name and not just looked at as a regular cross.

I also do not think that this has anything to do with a "God complex" either. Wether it be by accident or on purpose, people have proven things once thought impossible. Like nerd's thread, who would have thought you could pair those up and have viable young from it? Not me.

 

[Uncloudy]

John

all the mexicana lines, because those seem to be the "universal" hybrid makers),

John,
Can you expand on this statement?
I happen to be a big fan of mexicana subspecies. Really, why do you need hybrids when you have the thayeri kingsnake.
Thank You,
Uncloudy

 

[themselves]

yes i did say that in my post, because i here it all the same, they are ugly, and have no right to live and all this. go read the whole thing i wrote on my post of the pics in this forum and read that and tell me what you think.

 

[reptilebreeder]

John,
Can you expand on this statement?
I happen to be a big fan of mexicana subspecies. Really, why do you need hybrids when you have the thayeri kingsnake.
Thank You,
Uncloudy

Just that mexicana seems to be used a lot by some of the hybridizers, to try all the different crosses. That and the Ruthven's.

 

[cthulhu77]

Some very good animals have been produced by hybridization, that is for sure...whether or not they should have been is a question though...what, really is the motive? The breeder is not trying to improve the strain at all, like a good dog breeder, but is merely attempting to make an unusual animal...why? The only thing that motivates such people is a complex to stand out from the others...by producing novel animals, and saying "look at what I did, I'm special " ...
It does nothing to improve the genetics of an animal line (which may be devistating in the future, as wc availability wanes)...it pollutes the pool, instead. Many of these animals are then sold at a discount (I don't see the excuse of "I'm not making a profit, so I must be a good breeder" being valid at all ) to the herp community in general...who then goes on to breed them with other strains...so on and so on and so on...what a mess.
Just so you can say that you did something different.
Hope you hybrid breeders are happy...be sure to toot your own horn a lot...seems to be all that you can do.
greg

 

[Wilomn]

Some very good animals have been produced by hybridization, that is for sure...whether or not they should have been is a question though...what, really is the motive? The breeder is not trying to improve the strain at all, like a good dog breeder, but is merely attempting to make an unusual animal...why? The only thing that motivates such people is a complex to stand out from the others...by producing novel animals, and saying "look at what I did, I'm special " ...
It does nothing to improve the genetics of an animal line (which may be devistating in the future, as wc availability wanes)...it pollutes the pool, instead. Many of these animals are then sold at a discount (I don't see the excuse of "I'm not making a profit, so I must be a good breeder" being valid at all ) to the herp community in general...who then goes on to breed them with other strains...so on and so on and so on...what a mess.
Just so you can say that you did something different.
Hope you hybrid breeders are happy...be sure to toot your own horn a lot...seems to be all that you can do.
greg

Well, I think you're wrong here. I'm not much of a horn tooter, do bang a djembe on occasion, but I have been producing jungle corns since 1990. Perhaps your statement made is such broad generalities was meant to target more specific individuals. I like my hybrids, they are cool, pretty, hardy and yes, unique. I sell them as such and I make them just because I can. I sell out every year so I must not be the only one who appreciates them, but that is a generality and we have already learned the dangers of such speaking, haven't we.

Come to think of it, I don't even have a damn horn, got one to spare? If I REALLY need one that is, which I would think I don't, but hey, maybe I'm wrong. Guess I better check with ALL the other crossbreeders out there. Oh wait, I forgot who I was for a second. I don't give a rat's patootie why anyone else does what they do and I DON'T need any damn horn to proclaim what I do.

Want a cool one of a kind snake? Give me a call and I'll hook you up. LOL

 

[cthulhu77]

Wman:

Quote: "Want a cool one of a kind snake? "

Sure...oh wait, you mean a hybrid. Naw, never mind...too bad you don't put so much energy into a project that has some good long term goals...like really getting the mandarin rat snakes going, or perhaps any of the other beautiful colubrids out there.
Hybrids= waste of feeder mice

You? Not toot your own horn? Uhhhh.....please.

As stated before...sure there are some pretty ones out there, not faulting that...it's just that they are a genetic dead end, and a big accident waiting to happen.
greg