HerpVenue
New member
served with a cease and desist...
which is totally different from a slander suit.
which is totally different from a slander suit.
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Responding to email notices you receive.
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In short, DON'T! Email notices are to ONLY alert you of a reply to your private message or your ad on this site. Replying to the email just wastes your time as it goes NOWHERE, and probably pisses off the person you thought you replied to when they think you just ignored them. So instead of complaining to me about your messages not being replied to from this site via email, please READ that email notice that plainly states what you need to do in order to reply to who you are trying to converse with.
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IMPORTANT! PLEASE READ!! About the Google Adsense ads being displayed
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Posted 08/15/2025
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Yeah, I know. They are a pain in the butt. But they pay the bills to keep my server running. Just a fact of life, I am afraid.
Want to get rid of them? Simple. Just become a Contributor level member or above and they will be gone. -> Please click HERE."
Is that too much for me to ask of you to keep this site running? Well, sorry about that. I too wish I could get everything for free. But alas.....
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Addendum: 01/10/2026
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Google Adsense ad revenue for December, 2025 was just $30 over the cost of the lease for the server running this site. So, in effect, the money providing the incentive for me to continue running this site is coming SOLELY from the paid memberships and sponsorships here. Which honestly ain't much....
THE SNAKE PIT WAS BURGLARIZED *AGAIN* LAST NIGHT!!
- Thread starter Neil Gubitz
- Start date
Todd Evans
New member
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2002
- Messages
- 72
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
Darla, I'll give that a try.......maybe someone will correct me if I'm wrong, after all, my memory isn't too good either, also, these "facts" are based off of what is typed in the 70 some odd pages prior to this post.......
"1. Neil's store was burglarized on more than one occassion."
Obviously, Neil posted this thread about the recent burglary, and I distinctly remember the one from December. Whether or not the "supposed" police reports show that there were 4 total, I DO remember Neil talking about 2 for sure.
"2. No one has been proven to be the one who committed the crimes. "
Correct. Nobody has shown and admissable proof to incriminate anyone with the burglaries. I myself would LOVE to see it be a third party that is currently being overlooked due to the drama between The protagonists of this thread.......hey, maybe it was Ritchie?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>??? JUST KIDDING
"3. A lot of people on this forum donated money to hire a private investigator to investigate the December burglary."
True, including me......I felt good at the time, then when I found out what happened with it, I felt like a little ball of Shi.....oops, can't say that here.
"4. The money has dissapeared. (who took it again?)"
Yes it did......JAMES THORNTON from what I understand, took the money to be paid to the PI, but the PI never received the full ammount.
"5. The private investigator did not finish his work but Rich paid for the report which no one has seen yet. "
From what I understand, true. I believe that it was Rich that made that statement. For all we know, the PI didn't find any evidence to incriminate ANYBODY with the December Burglary. Also, Rich (according to him) paid the balence of what was due the PI.
"6. Neil has hired a lawyer who has served Dave with a cease and disist order."
That's what Dave said........
"7. Dave has hired a lawyer. "
From what I understand so far (may be wrong) Dave has a "lawyer friend" that has been "consulting" him. He has stated that he hasn't yet retained the services of council.
"8. Neil asked Julie to keep some of his snakes safe because he was convinced he was going to be burglarized again but she did not help him out. (that whole part confuses me)."
This confuses me as well. Dave had brought it up, but nobody really answered him. He left a vague question out there for consideration, but the whole story of it has not yet been brought to light.....probably never will be either.
"9. Police reports have been made on some of the burglaries. Do we know exactly which ones and when they were filed?"
Ok, this is a tricky one....this is the whole reason that people doubt Neil to begin with. NOW.....he at first claimed that he had reports for ALL 4 of his burglaries. Then he "misplaced" the December report. I would assume that there is one for this most recent one, but it's still open. Now, Dave had received "ALL" of the reports on file from the TPD, but we were still missing one from December. Neils esteemed attorny then stated that there was one and gave the respective number and a way for us to find out if he was lying. I haven't looked, but people were still questioning the fact that it existed. Supposedly, Neil was given a form to fill out by the police at the scene of the December burglary. Neil, himself, doesn't remember if he filled it out or not (hey it was 5 months ago) Now, the police HAVE to fill out a report when they respond to a call, whether or not this was the report that Neil's attorny was referring to, I'm not sure. Now, I wonder myself if it was a simple response report or if it was a crime report that would be the beginning stages of an investigation. Neil said himself that he had no need for a report, so why it matters that there wasn't one is a mystery to me. Of course, being as I HAD donated money for an investigation, I would've liked Neil to follow all legal avenues to reach a conclusion to the matter. Of course, the fact that he couldn't remember what was done where, when, why, how, is what has led people to believe that he was "hiding" something.
"10. Insurance claims were filed and paid on some of the burglaries. Once again, do we know which ones? And does it even matter?"
Yes. Insurance claims were filed for the first 2 burglaries, of which everbody agrees there ARE police reports for. It matters to an extent. The thing was, if Neil had an insurance claim for the December (impossible without insurance) then a report would've been necessary, this is the reason he said he never filed one, he didn't need to. This past burglary, I'm not sure if he has insurance again, so it may not matter in the least whether a claim was filed or not. Now, Dave has also "claimed" that Neil "padded" the reports, of which we've never been given any concrete proof of. This accusation would have been in reference to the Earlier burglaries that were committed about 2 years ago.....I'm not sure of the statute of limitations of this though.
"11. Neil had the police reports in his possession, then lost one. (Is that correct?)"
According to the posts it seems that way. he had claimed to have ALL 4 reports "in his hands." I am pretty sure this was just a figure of speech, I don't think he really had them "in his hands" just that he was saying he could prove that they existed. First off, he COULDN'T have had the most recent one, it's still open. So that leaves 3 that he could've had "in his hands" The thing is, I'm not sure there even IS one for the December burglary still. Neil said it wasn't necessary to have one. If there is a report on file with the TPD for the dates in question, it MAY just be an incident report.....if the police have to come to your house because you're complaining about a dog barking too loud, they HAVE to file a report. Perhaps (my theory) the police responded to the call.....made a report, and LEFT a form for Neil to fill out. Neil DIDN'T fill out the report (because it was unnecessary in his eyes) and the police RETURNED the next day to collect the report.....the police would've filled out a report when they came back as well. YET, there still might not be a "case" report on file for the December burglary because Neil essentially waived his right to have one done. I mean, they didn't solve the first 2 burglaries he had, why have faith in them this time?
"12. Angie works for Neil as an employee and had nothing to do with the burglaries. (why she was ever mentioned I forget). "
Simple, with all this talk about this being an "inside job" people have, on 2 seperate occasions, incriminated Angie. Then it was brought up that she's an attractive woman.....things went haywire for a moment, but 2 people, Julie and Neil have both stated that Angie couldn't have done it.
"13. Neil has a very poor memory. This was backed up by Ben Seigel who has no axes to grind here. "
Yes, it has been mentioned MANY times that Neil has a poor memory. I for one do not think that that makes him an immediate suspect, although I admit changing stories in what APPEARS to be convenient memory lapses, DOES make one very difficult to believe. I don't take them as lies so much as basically misinformation. To me a lie is when you KNOW the truth and tell the opposite. Misinformation is when you're not quite sure of the truth, but say SOMETHING just to answer the question. When he appears to find or remember or be reminded of the truth, he tells a different story from when he couldn't recall the truth. Not strictly a lie in my opinion.
"14. Past criminal histories have been brought up which have no real bearing on this thread."
I personally think that they don't DIRECTLY have any bearing on this case, EXCEPT that since Dave does have a history of burglary (granted only one) he being a suspect would be looked at more thoroughly than say Angie. Now, if there had been illegal drugs found on the premises, then yes, Neil would be looked at more thoroughly. Of course, criminal history isn't what is used to PROVE someone guilty in a court of law. and SHOULD NOT be used here either. Like I said before, it could've been an outside party that has like 50 burglaries on their record......
"15. People are at eachothers throats over things said in this thread in anger/confusion/frustration. Most of these are people who really have nothing to do with it except that we were the ones who donated money and want some answers. "
That is precisely why I have read this thread from the beginning (day one) I donated money with everybody else. The problem with this is that we should hold no grudge against Neil or Dave for our poor judgement. Our gripe is with James Thornton, who STILL has not explained what happened to the balence of the donations OR the advertising money that vanished. The people that are at eachother's throats (IMO) feel VERY strongly about the person involved (Neil) They don't want to see him go down as the bad guy. Others have noticed the little mistakes he has made and took off with them. The REAL story here is that we have and never will se any conclusive evidence that either Neil or Dave are lying or telling the truth. I find this thread to be entertaining to say the least, while I am also interested in the outcome just out of curiosity. To me it's like a free movie. There is action, suspense, and a good mystery to go with it.
I for one think that the Tattoo guy did it (the neighbor of the Snake Pit) Just Kidding.
Hope this clears things up.....
"1. Neil's store was burglarized on more than one occassion."
Obviously, Neil posted this thread about the recent burglary, and I distinctly remember the one from December. Whether or not the "supposed" police reports show that there were 4 total, I DO remember Neil talking about 2 for sure.
"2. No one has been proven to be the one who committed the crimes. "
Correct. Nobody has shown and admissable proof to incriminate anyone with the burglaries. I myself would LOVE to see it be a third party that is currently being overlooked due to the drama between The protagonists of this thread.......hey, maybe it was Ritchie?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>??? JUST KIDDING
"3. A lot of people on this forum donated money to hire a private investigator to investigate the December burglary."
True, including me......I felt good at the time, then when I found out what happened with it, I felt like a little ball of Shi.....oops, can't say that here.
"4. The money has dissapeared. (who took it again?)"
Yes it did......JAMES THORNTON from what I understand, took the money to be paid to the PI, but the PI never received the full ammount.
"5. The private investigator did not finish his work but Rich paid for the report which no one has seen yet. "
From what I understand, true. I believe that it was Rich that made that statement. For all we know, the PI didn't find any evidence to incriminate ANYBODY with the December Burglary. Also, Rich (according to him) paid the balence of what was due the PI.
"6. Neil has hired a lawyer who has served Dave with a cease and disist order."
That's what Dave said........
"7. Dave has hired a lawyer. "
From what I understand so far (may be wrong) Dave has a "lawyer friend" that has been "consulting" him. He has stated that he hasn't yet retained the services of council.
"8. Neil asked Julie to keep some of his snakes safe because he was convinced he was going to be burglarized again but she did not help him out. (that whole part confuses me)."
This confuses me as well. Dave had brought it up, but nobody really answered him. He left a vague question out there for consideration, but the whole story of it has not yet been brought to light.....probably never will be either.
"9. Police reports have been made on some of the burglaries. Do we know exactly which ones and when they were filed?"
Ok, this is a tricky one....this is the whole reason that people doubt Neil to begin with. NOW.....he at first claimed that he had reports for ALL 4 of his burglaries. Then he "misplaced" the December report. I would assume that there is one for this most recent one, but it's still open. Now, Dave had received "ALL" of the reports on file from the TPD, but we were still missing one from December. Neils esteemed attorny then stated that there was one and gave the respective number and a way for us to find out if he was lying. I haven't looked, but people were still questioning the fact that it existed. Supposedly, Neil was given a form to fill out by the police at the scene of the December burglary. Neil, himself, doesn't remember if he filled it out or not (hey it was 5 months ago) Now, the police HAVE to fill out a report when they respond to a call, whether or not this was the report that Neil's attorny was referring to, I'm not sure. Now, I wonder myself if it was a simple response report or if it was a crime report that would be the beginning stages of an investigation. Neil said himself that he had no need for a report, so why it matters that there wasn't one is a mystery to me. Of course, being as I HAD donated money for an investigation, I would've liked Neil to follow all legal avenues to reach a conclusion to the matter. Of course, the fact that he couldn't remember what was done where, when, why, how, is what has led people to believe that he was "hiding" something.
"10. Insurance claims were filed and paid on some of the burglaries. Once again, do we know which ones? And does it even matter?"
Yes. Insurance claims were filed for the first 2 burglaries, of which everbody agrees there ARE police reports for. It matters to an extent. The thing was, if Neil had an insurance claim for the December (impossible without insurance) then a report would've been necessary, this is the reason he said he never filed one, he didn't need to. This past burglary, I'm not sure if he has insurance again, so it may not matter in the least whether a claim was filed or not. Now, Dave has also "claimed" that Neil "padded" the reports, of which we've never been given any concrete proof of. This accusation would have been in reference to the Earlier burglaries that were committed about 2 years ago.....I'm not sure of the statute of limitations of this though.
"11. Neil had the police reports in his possession, then lost one. (Is that correct?)"
According to the posts it seems that way. he had claimed to have ALL 4 reports "in his hands." I am pretty sure this was just a figure of speech, I don't think he really had them "in his hands" just that he was saying he could prove that they existed. First off, he COULDN'T have had the most recent one, it's still open. So that leaves 3 that he could've had "in his hands" The thing is, I'm not sure there even IS one for the December burglary still. Neil said it wasn't necessary to have one. If there is a report on file with the TPD for the dates in question, it MAY just be an incident report.....if the police have to come to your house because you're complaining about a dog barking too loud, they HAVE to file a report. Perhaps (my theory) the police responded to the call.....made a report, and LEFT a form for Neil to fill out. Neil DIDN'T fill out the report (because it was unnecessary in his eyes) and the police RETURNED the next day to collect the report.....the police would've filled out a report when they came back as well. YET, there still might not be a "case" report on file for the December burglary because Neil essentially waived his right to have one done. I mean, they didn't solve the first 2 burglaries he had, why have faith in them this time?
"12. Angie works for Neil as an employee and had nothing to do with the burglaries. (why she was ever mentioned I forget). "
Simple, with all this talk about this being an "inside job" people have, on 2 seperate occasions, incriminated Angie. Then it was brought up that she's an attractive woman.....things went haywire for a moment, but 2 people, Julie and Neil have both stated that Angie couldn't have done it.
"13. Neil has a very poor memory. This was backed up by Ben Seigel who has no axes to grind here. "
Yes, it has been mentioned MANY times that Neil has a poor memory. I for one do not think that that makes him an immediate suspect, although I admit changing stories in what APPEARS to be convenient memory lapses, DOES make one very difficult to believe. I don't take them as lies so much as basically misinformation. To me a lie is when you KNOW the truth and tell the opposite. Misinformation is when you're not quite sure of the truth, but say SOMETHING just to answer the question. When he appears to find or remember or be reminded of the truth, he tells a different story from when he couldn't recall the truth. Not strictly a lie in my opinion.
"14. Past criminal histories have been brought up which have no real bearing on this thread."
I personally think that they don't DIRECTLY have any bearing on this case, EXCEPT that since Dave does have a history of burglary (granted only one) he being a suspect would be looked at more thoroughly than say Angie. Now, if there had been illegal drugs found on the premises, then yes, Neil would be looked at more thoroughly. Of course, criminal history isn't what is used to PROVE someone guilty in a court of law. and SHOULD NOT be used here either. Like I said before, it could've been an outside party that has like 50 burglaries on their record......
"15. People are at eachothers throats over things said in this thread in anger/confusion/frustration. Most of these are people who really have nothing to do with it except that we were the ones who donated money and want some answers. "
That is precisely why I have read this thread from the beginning (day one) I donated money with everybody else. The problem with this is that we should hold no grudge against Neil or Dave for our poor judgement. Our gripe is with James Thornton, who STILL has not explained what happened to the balence of the donations OR the advertising money that vanished. The people that are at eachother's throats (IMO) feel VERY strongly about the person involved (Neil) They don't want to see him go down as the bad guy. Others have noticed the little mistakes he has made and took off with them. The REAL story here is that we have and never will se any conclusive evidence that either Neil or Dave are lying or telling the truth. I find this thread to be entertaining to say the least, while I am also interested in the outcome just out of curiosity. To me it's like a free movie. There is action, suspense, and a good mystery to go with it.
I for one think that the Tattoo guy did it (the neighbor of the Snake Pit) Just Kidding.
Hope this clears things up.....
Dave Lawson
New member
Y es ,that is correct I was served with a cease and desist from Neil's attorney today (5/28/02) it means so much that I lined a cage with it.Neil said that I would be served with court papers what I got any attorney will do for $100.00.But for $200.00 they will send the papers and quote Shakespear plus be your mouth piece.I want Neil to take me to court so I can tell the world what kind of person he is along with 13 of his closest friends,a P.I.,A Detective from the T.P.D.,Rich Z.,Neil's own father,Neil's landlord,6 CUSTOMERS (FROM THE SNAKE PIT THAT nEIL TOLD i STOLE HIS ANIMALS)Everyone that Neil e-mailed saying I stole his animals (6 so far),Josie Arnold (ex-employee),Neil's neighbors(tattoo shop next to the pit) and more to be mentioned at a later date.So yes I have my ducks in a row.Remember Neil,NO ONE IS GOING TO LIE FOR YOU ,EVER!!!!!! So stop asking people to,thay only tell me and make my list longer.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ritchie Luna @ May 28 2002,22:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Hey Ritchie,
Nothing like a juicy post to get things going...lol
"Neil says he has not had any bad remarks about him.
Yes he has, several times and he got defended Ruthlessly by me and all his friends"
He clairfied that to bad remarks about his animal sales.
"Neil has never lied.
I guess when he wrote that all four reports were in his hand...I guess he just forgot to look down and count."
What, you never typed something without checking to make absolutely sure? I'm not saying thats the right thing to do, just that I think you have made far too much out of it.
"I guess it is okay if Neil gets his girlfriend to post good things about him and pretend to do business with him...
But when someone else does it...we CRUCIFY them"
When did I or anyone else for that matter (including Neil) say it was "ok"?
"a part of Neil's e-mail to me dated 5/17
Just for the record....the PI has NOT spoken to me AT ALL!!
I guess he forgot that he called the PI and the PI spoke to him and told him not to call or he would call the police. I guess he also forgot that he told me he spoke to the PI and it was some guy named william."
I am assuming he meant the PI never TOLD him anything? Who knows? I never said Neil was God, just that you have made a mountain out of a molehill of some really petty things.
"e-mailed to me 5/21/02
By the end of the week...he WILL BE SERVED WITH A SLANDER SUIT!!
so which one is this? Is this the lie? Or is this the memory lapse? Dave has NOT been served yet.
private message on 5/21/02
Wait till the end of the week and see how much I'm kidding....Dave AND Julie ARE being SLAPPED with a Slander suit!!
another memory lapse.........because they are still waiting for their papers"
Small bananas, this is nothing again. Petty stuff and you really are scraping the bottom of the barrel to come up with this stuff.
"private message on 5/21/02
The glass was ALL OVER the inside of the store when the cops showed up....it was definitely outside, in!
amother memory lapse....How would he know the glass was all over the inside when the cops showed up? he was supposedly at home sleeping."
I'm assuming he had the pleasure of cleaning up all the mess the next day right? That or the cops in Tampa are better than most! lol
"e-mailed to me 5/22/02
Didnt you notice that all through the beginning of this thread when Dave was not being so nice, I still stuck up for him and called him my friend??...
First Dave was not at the begginning of this post.
Second...I guess defending Dave means writing to people that he stole your animals"
First...Petty again
Second... I'm pretty sure that was sent privately while attempting to find the person responsible. Key word there is PRIVATELY.
"and my most favorite of all
email on 5/21/02
BTW...you KNOW the video tape was not turned on?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'> How the HELL would you know that??? It was ripped out of the ####ing wall and it was ON!! and WORKING!!
Note the on and working part....
Now check out this other thing he sent me. by private message on the same day
That's why the cops found half of my tape player outside on the ground by the window they escaped from??? It was crushed and the tape missing!!
So ask yourself.....was the tape player ripped out of the wall and working like he says...Or was it outside the window and smashed like he says?
Another memory lapse perhaps?"
The tape player was ripped out of the wall right? I'd probably assume that if it got ripped out of the wall it was because it was working and recording what was happenning? So the theif rips it out of the wall, smashes it to get the tape out or to ensure it wont work, takes the tape and discards the broken recorder. Why is that so hard?
Take a look at what you are asking. It's mainly petty stuff.
It's kind of the same for you isn't it, You've waded in too deep and now have no choice but to proceed.
Belinda.
Hey Ritchie,
Nothing like a juicy post to get things going...lol
"Neil says he has not had any bad remarks about him.
Yes he has, several times and he got defended Ruthlessly by me and all his friends"
He clairfied that to bad remarks about his animal sales.
"Neil has never lied.
I guess when he wrote that all four reports were in his hand...I guess he just forgot to look down and count."
What, you never typed something without checking to make absolutely sure? I'm not saying thats the right thing to do, just that I think you have made far too much out of it.
"I guess it is okay if Neil gets his girlfriend to post good things about him and pretend to do business with him...
But when someone else does it...we CRUCIFY them"
When did I or anyone else for that matter (including Neil) say it was "ok"?
"a part of Neil's e-mail to me dated 5/17
Just for the record....the PI has NOT spoken to me AT ALL!!
I guess he forgot that he called the PI and the PI spoke to him and told him not to call or he would call the police. I guess he also forgot that he told me he spoke to the PI and it was some guy named william."
I am assuming he meant the PI never TOLD him anything? Who knows? I never said Neil was God, just that you have made a mountain out of a molehill of some really petty things.
"e-mailed to me 5/21/02
By the end of the week...he WILL BE SERVED WITH A SLANDER SUIT!!
so which one is this? Is this the lie? Or is this the memory lapse? Dave has NOT been served yet.
private message on 5/21/02
Wait till the end of the week and see how much I'm kidding....Dave AND Julie ARE being SLAPPED with a Slander suit!!
another memory lapse.........because they are still waiting for their papers"
Small bananas, this is nothing again. Petty stuff and you really are scraping the bottom of the barrel to come up with this stuff.
"private message on 5/21/02
The glass was ALL OVER the inside of the store when the cops showed up....it was definitely outside, in!
amother memory lapse....How would he know the glass was all over the inside when the cops showed up? he was supposedly at home sleeping."
I'm assuming he had the pleasure of cleaning up all the mess the next day right? That or the cops in Tampa are better than most! lol
"e-mailed to me 5/22/02
Didnt you notice that all through the beginning of this thread when Dave was not being so nice, I still stuck up for him and called him my friend??...
First Dave was not at the begginning of this post.
Second...I guess defending Dave means writing to people that he stole your animals"
First...Petty again
Second... I'm pretty sure that was sent privately while attempting to find the person responsible. Key word there is PRIVATELY.
"and my most favorite of all
email on 5/21/02
BTW...you KNOW the video tape was not turned on?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'> How the HELL would you know that??? It was ripped out of the ####ing wall and it was ON!! and WORKING!!
Note the on and working part....
Now check out this other thing he sent me. by private message on the same day
That's why the cops found half of my tape player outside on the ground by the window they escaped from??? It was crushed and the tape missing!!
So ask yourself.....was the tape player ripped out of the wall and working like he says...Or was it outside the window and smashed like he says?
Another memory lapse perhaps?"
The tape player was ripped out of the wall right? I'd probably assume that if it got ripped out of the wall it was because it was working and recording what was happenning? So the theif rips it out of the wall, smashes it to get the tape out or to ensure it wont work, takes the tape and discards the broken recorder. Why is that so hard?
Take a look at what you are asking. It's mainly petty stuff.
It's kind of the same for you isn't it, You've waded in too deep and now have no choice but to proceed.
Belinda.
Hey Belinda, I hear your side, but 2 things...
"He very quickly stepped up to the plate to correct it when asked. Hmmm sounds like he really tried hard to decieve us didn't he? "
Reread it...He stepped up to the plate AFTER he was exposed NOT before. Kinda like with everything else. I want to be clear on this so here it is:
"Oh yeah, Neil - that 1.0 Motley(ish) Granite Boa that was "stolen" - isn't that the one that died over the weekend that I saw in the freezer at the store on Tuesday? "
Ok...Now the Memory Returns and he steps up to the plate!
"the Motley WAS NOT STOLEN...it DID die, I just got confused last night!"
Now your thinking bad memory???
How about the Snake that died and he posted on Kingsnake that it was sold. Couldn't he have just removed it and not said a word???
But no...HE LIED and guess what...AFTER he was exposed again he stepped up to the plate and admitted to it...SEE A PATTERN???
Why lie??? Do you really truely believe its really all just a bad memory? I understand different points of view, but this is sooooo clear.
With regards to his store it was a dump by his own admission, but Angie helped clean it up. The problem with that is why did he allow it be a disgusting mess for years under his management and then take credit for Angie cleaning it up. If she wasnt there would it still be a dump??? We'll never know.
As of this writing THERE IS NO LAWSUIT...Just an attempt to stop Dave from revealing more damaging information that requires him to "step up to the plate" and claim memory loss over and over again...
The detective issue was the recent one where Neil avoided the question put forth. He's very quick to answer the easy ones and once again chose to ignore this one as I suspect he's afraid to. Maybe we'll get lucky and get another outstanding explaination from his atty.
Devon Smith
"He very quickly stepped up to the plate to correct it when asked. Hmmm sounds like he really tried hard to decieve us didn't he? "
Reread it...He stepped up to the plate AFTER he was exposed NOT before. Kinda like with everything else. I want to be clear on this so here it is:
"Oh yeah, Neil - that 1.0 Motley(ish) Granite Boa that was "stolen" - isn't that the one that died over the weekend that I saw in the freezer at the store on Tuesday? "
Ok...Now the Memory Returns and he steps up to the plate!
"the Motley WAS NOT STOLEN...it DID die, I just got confused last night!"
Now your thinking bad memory???
How about the Snake that died and he posted on Kingsnake that it was sold. Couldn't he have just removed it and not said a word???
But no...HE LIED and guess what...AFTER he was exposed again he stepped up to the plate and admitted to it...SEE A PATTERN???
Why lie??? Do you really truely believe its really all just a bad memory? I understand different points of view, but this is sooooo clear.
With regards to his store it was a dump by his own admission, but Angie helped clean it up. The problem with that is why did he allow it be a disgusting mess for years under his management and then take credit for Angie cleaning it up. If she wasnt there would it still be a dump??? We'll never know.
As of this writing THERE IS NO LAWSUIT...Just an attempt to stop Dave from revealing more damaging information that requires him to "step up to the plate" and claim memory loss over and over again...
The detective issue was the recent one where Neil avoided the question put forth. He's very quick to answer the easy ones and once again chose to ignore this one as I suspect he's afraid to. Maybe we'll get lucky and get another outstanding explaination from his atty.
Devon Smith
napavalleysnakes
Abomination of Nature
So we still don't know a thing after 76 pages of this post.
Lots of evidence but no real proof. What we do know is that a sympathy post for Neil has turned into a pretty ugly spitting contest between a handful of individuals..
Ritchie is now being attacked for being honest?? Belinda, you realize that Ritchie defended Neil vehemently in the face of these accusations until Neil quit anwering his questions. I don't think too many people on here question Ritchie or his integrity.
As for my feelings on the matter, well to me Ben's post carried alot more weight than Neil's lawyer and his ranting.
My reason why I would never do business with Neil is in his responses to the people on this board.
I know some will say that he had to resort to such tactics in the face of adversity, that it's only human. My only question to those defending Neil is this: How can you defend a post where Neil stated he just might have to shoot Josie?? As a joke?? Now that's one heck of a thing to joke about <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='
'>
Any takers on answering that one or is it an appropriate e-mail message to send a mutual friend??
<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='
'>
The case may not have been tried in a court of law, but I've sure already given it a verdict..
Stephen Emerick
Napa Valley Snakes
Lots of evidence but no real proof. What we do know is that a sympathy post for Neil has turned into a pretty ugly spitting contest between a handful of individuals..
Ritchie is now being attacked for being honest?? Belinda, you realize that Ritchie defended Neil vehemently in the face of these accusations until Neil quit anwering his questions. I don't think too many people on here question Ritchie or his integrity.
As for my feelings on the matter, well to me Ben's post carried alot more weight than Neil's lawyer and his ranting.
My reason why I would never do business with Neil is in his responses to the people on this board.
I know some will say that he had to resort to such tactics in the face of adversity, that it's only human. My only question to those defending Neil is this: How can you defend a post where Neil stated he just might have to shoot Josie?? As a joke?? Now that's one heck of a thing to joke about <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='
'>Any takers on answering that one or is it an appropriate e-mail message to send a mutual friend??
<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='
'> The case may not have been tried in a court of law, but I've sure already given it a verdict..
Stephen Emerick
Napa Valley Snakes
Casey Hulse
New member
I have a question for Neil or Dave. The thief entered the store thru a window that was not wired or blocked with bars, right? I assume it was not "guarded" because of the 100-200lb cage that was either nailed to the floor, or not. Now the thief smashed the window, and from the outside of the building he was able to move this large cage? How? Did he push it? Why didn't it tip over? The window was small, I believe, so it seems like it would be very difficult to manipulate a large cumbersome cage thru the opening. I could be wrong about this, but I assumed that the window was not guarded, because entry thru it was unlikely.
"...Pick your enemies carefully. There is no worse adversary than the one that has nothing to loose..."
Good night to all! <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>
Good night to all! <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='
'></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (napavalleysnakes @ May 28 2002,23:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ritchie is now being attacked for being honest?? Belinda, you realize that Ritchie defended Neil vehemently in the face of these accusations until Neil quit anwering his questions. I don't think too many people on here question Ritchie or his integrity.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Could please explain where in my post I attacked Ritchie for being honest or questioned his integrity? I certainly never intended for my post to be taken that way!
Belinda.
Could please explain where in my post I attacked Ritchie for being honest or questioned his integrity? I certainly never intended for my post to be taken that way!
Belinda.
HerpVenue
New member
To be fair to me... Hottie = cutie = God's gift to this earth.
Which I firmly believe ALL women are.
To be fair to Belinda...she is not questioning my integrity or honesty. She is just asking me questions like I am asking Neil.
To be fair to Dave. Belinda ask yourself...it those quotes were Dave's words instead of Neil's...would they still be petty? Or would you be joining the rest of the group in crucifying Dave?
To be fair to Neil....Dave I did research on the albino lead.
the one that was stolen was a female. the one he sold is different, it was a male......I know you just made an honest mistake....because I was going to slam Neil for it....Then I realized the police report I was looking at was for March...DUH
Now Belinda.....You wrote that it was a mistake for Neil to write that he had four reports and just forgot to check if he had them all.
Follow along....Neil Swore for many threads that he had the reports.. He swore for many threads and many pages that he had all four (4). Then when we finally pointed out that his police reports did not match...He said .....okay I did not file one, "so what"....then he lawyer came up with one many many posts later.
To be quite honest...there is a report filed with every single call the cops respond too. I am wondering if the police report for december has any animals listed on it...
as far as the cops showing up and the glass was all over the inside.
All I am saying is that he wrote me like he was there or something. He would not know...HE WAS NOT THERE. He sent his manager. Are you telling me his manager left the glass out to sit all night
Also here is a quote from Neil for the opening of this thread
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">AND, they took my 24-hour tape recorder!! So, obviously...NO PICTURES OF THEM!! </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
He wrote to me on Private message or e-mail that it was outside the window broken and in pieces
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That's why the cops found half of my tape player outside on the ground by the window they escaped from??? It was crushed and the tape missing!!</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
you could make an argument that he thought it was gone...while all in actuality it was just outside.
Welp look at the time line....The cops were long gone when he wrote the opening thread. Did they come back days later after he wrote the thread and say "whoopsy here it the tape recorder"
Ask yourself......What happened to the enclosure / stand that only Neil has a key to? Why was the lock not broken? Why does it look like someone had a key to it and opened it neatly?
Which I firmly believe ALL women are.
To be fair to Belinda...she is not questioning my integrity or honesty. She is just asking me questions like I am asking Neil.
To be fair to Dave. Belinda ask yourself...it those quotes were Dave's words instead of Neil's...would they still be petty? Or would you be joining the rest of the group in crucifying Dave?
To be fair to Neil....Dave I did research on the albino lead.
the one that was stolen was a female. the one he sold is different, it was a male......I know you just made an honest mistake....because I was going to slam Neil for it....Then I realized the police report I was looking at was for March...DUH
Now Belinda.....You wrote that it was a mistake for Neil to write that he had four reports and just forgot to check if he had them all.
Follow along....Neil Swore for many threads that he had the reports.. He swore for many threads and many pages that he had all four (4). Then when we finally pointed out that his police reports did not match...He said .....okay I did not file one, "so what"....then he lawyer came up with one many many posts later.
To be quite honest...there is a report filed with every single call the cops respond too. I am wondering if the police report for december has any animals listed on it...
as far as the cops showing up and the glass was all over the inside.
All I am saying is that he wrote me like he was there or something. He would not know...HE WAS NOT THERE. He sent his manager. Are you telling me his manager left the glass out to sit all night
Also here is a quote from Neil for the opening of this thread
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">AND, they took my 24-hour tape recorder!! So, obviously...NO PICTURES OF THEM!! </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
He wrote to me on Private message or e-mail that it was outside the window broken and in pieces
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That's why the cops found half of my tape player outside on the ground by the window they escaped from??? It was crushed and the tape missing!!</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
you could make an argument that he thought it was gone...while all in actuality it was just outside.
Welp look at the time line....The cops were long gone when he wrote the opening thread. Did they come back days later after he wrote the thread and say "whoopsy here it the tape recorder"
Ask yourself......What happened to the enclosure / stand that only Neil has a key to? Why was the lock not broken? Why does it look like someone had a key to it and opened it neatly?
Dave Lawson
New member
Casey,To answwer your question.The window is not small at all it is a 3' x 4 1/2' and it did have 2 sets of bars on it.,The cage is a 6'x6'x3' mage of 1/2" plywood (3 sheets,1 for the top and 2 for the bottom 1 sheet is for a sliding tray) it is framed w/2x4s for all 4 corners the top and bottom and it has wire wrapped around it (no solid walls).Here are the funny facts about the cage and the break-in:
1)The store had a tile floor around the cage and insteadof moving the cage and putting the tile under the cage they tiled up to the cage and glued the cage into the tile and the floor,so basicly the cage was made not to move.
2)The cage set in a corner and was butted up to the set of burlar bars on th inside of the store and set in about 4" from the window.
Now to be on the outside and smashing the glass window we all know that the glass would have went inside the store but now did it was all outside,This should be shown by police photos if not Neil's employees can tell you.once the glass was out they (robbers)had to remove the set of bars that were mounted on inside of the window this could not be done without doing damage to the wire on the cage if youpush against the wire if bends,stretches and or breaks (the cage was in perfect condition after the robbery.The cage and floor did have pry marks and scratches on the inside,This would indicate that a person(s) pried the cage from the floor, lifted it over the tile and slid it while standing in the store before the inside bars were removed.I hope this answers your question.
1)The store had a tile floor around the cage and insteadof moving the cage and putting the tile under the cage they tiled up to the cage and glued the cage into the tile and the floor,so basicly the cage was made not to move.
2)The cage set in a corner and was butted up to the set of burlar bars on th inside of the store and set in about 4" from the window.
Now to be on the outside and smashing the glass window we all know that the glass would have went inside the store but now did it was all outside,This should be shown by police photos if not Neil's employees can tell you.once the glass was out they (robbers)had to remove the set of bars that were mounted on inside of the window this could not be done without doing damage to the wire on the cage if youpush against the wire if bends,stretches and or breaks (the cage was in perfect condition after the robbery.The cage and floor did have pry marks and scratches on the inside,This would indicate that a person(s) pried the cage from the floor, lifted it over the tile and slid it while standing in the store before the inside bars were removed.I hope this answers your question.
Dave Lawson
New member
Some people may not want to hear this but I will say it anyway,I got a call this morning from Det.Bob Cole from the T.P.D. and he wants me to fax him a copy a copy of Neil's e-mail and the so called retraction today.He simply stated that Neil Gubitz did not do what he was told and that he would take care of it.I ask him if Neil had given him a copy of this thread (Neil said he was or already did,He said no he never mentioned it.
Darin Chappell
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Belinda,
You certainly have every right to your poinion about Neil's credibility. I applaud you for being willing to stand by someone whom you believe to be innocent in the midst of this firing line. However, there are two sets of facts that you have not fully addressed in your defense of Mr. Gubitz:
1. The police reports. I won't go into this all over again, but he said he had them all, then he said "so what" if he never filed a report for the December burglary, then he said "see I told you so" when his lawyer dug up the number. Now, if it was not a bald face lie for him to say that he had the report in his hand (figuratively speaking or not) when he obviously did not, I can't imagine what one would be.
2. We now have three different versions, it would seem, concerning the condition of the video recorder immediately following the most recent burglary (I believe it is this one, someone correct me if I'm mistaken). a) It was taken completely, b) it was ripped out of the wall and was still working, and c) it was smashed into pieces sufficiently that half of it was outside the store and the tape was missing.
Now, you simply brushed off Ritchie's point about the tape machine, but you cannot have it both ways. ASSUMING that one of the three scenarios outlined above is correct (I say "ASSUMING" because Neil was the originator of these assertions, and we all now know how bad his memory is), any one of them would be mutually exclusive to the other two being true. IF the tape machine were completely missing, it could not be found ripped out of the wall working nor could it be found smashed in half outside of the store. Likewise, IF the machine were found ripped out of the wall and working, it could not be missing nor could it be smashed outside with the tape missing. IF it was found smashed in half outside with the tape missing, how could it be completely missing and how could it be working inside the store (albeit ripped from the wall)?
Now, Belinda, I don't know you, and I would certainly never want to attribute anything to you which you did not expressly avow for yourself. However, it seems to me that you would have to agree that Neil did lie about the police reports, and that the three versions of his story about the VCR cannot all be true, either. At least two of those stories have to be lies, because they are mutually exclusive to one another. "I say "at least" because it is also possible that all three of them are lies. You'll have to make up your own mind, of course, but I know enough from Neil's own hand that I have made up mine.
As they say, "the Devil is in the details!"
You certainly have every right to your poinion about Neil's credibility. I applaud you for being willing to stand by someone whom you believe to be innocent in the midst of this firing line. However, there are two sets of facts that you have not fully addressed in your defense of Mr. Gubitz:
1. The police reports. I won't go into this all over again, but he said he had them all, then he said "so what" if he never filed a report for the December burglary, then he said "see I told you so" when his lawyer dug up the number. Now, if it was not a bald face lie for him to say that he had the report in his hand (figuratively speaking or not) when he obviously did not, I can't imagine what one would be.
2. We now have three different versions, it would seem, concerning the condition of the video recorder immediately following the most recent burglary (I believe it is this one, someone correct me if I'm mistaken). a) It was taken completely, b) it was ripped out of the wall and was still working, and c) it was smashed into pieces sufficiently that half of it was outside the store and the tape was missing.
Now, you simply brushed off Ritchie's point about the tape machine, but you cannot have it both ways. ASSUMING that one of the three scenarios outlined above is correct (I say "ASSUMING" because Neil was the originator of these assertions, and we all now know how bad his memory is), any one of them would be mutually exclusive to the other two being true. IF the tape machine were completely missing, it could not be found ripped out of the wall working nor could it be found smashed in half outside of the store. Likewise, IF the machine were found ripped out of the wall and working, it could not be missing nor could it be smashed outside with the tape missing. IF it was found smashed in half outside with the tape missing, how could it be completely missing and how could it be working inside the store (albeit ripped from the wall)?
Now, Belinda, I don't know you, and I would certainly never want to attribute anything to you which you did not expressly avow for yourself. However, it seems to me that you would have to agree that Neil did lie about the police reports, and that the three versions of his story about the VCR cannot all be true, either. At least two of those stories have to be lies, because they are mutually exclusive to one another. "I say "at least" because it is also possible that all three of them are lies. You'll have to make up your own mind, of course, but I know enough from Neil's own hand that I have made up mine.
As they say, "the Devil is in the details!"
HerpVenue
New member
Just in case someone misses it. -- Thanks Darin
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> We now have three different versions, it would seem, concerning the condition of the video recorder immediately following the most recent burglary (I believe it is this one, someone correct me if I'm mistaken). a) It was taken completely, b) it was ripped out of the wall and was still working, and c) it was smashed into pieces sufficiently that half of it was outside the store and the tape was missing. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> We now have three different versions, it would seem, concerning the condition of the video recorder immediately following the most recent burglary (I believe it is this one, someone correct me if I'm mistaken). a) It was taken completely, b) it was ripped out of the wall and was still working, and c) it was smashed into pieces sufficiently that half of it was outside the store and the tape was missing. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Casey Hulse
New member
Dave, Could someone enter the store through the window with the cage there? You said it was 4" from the window. Did it cover the whole window? If they could get in the store with the cage where it was, then why was it moved at all? </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The cage and floor did have pry marks and scratches on the inside,This would indicate that a person(s) pried the cage from the floor, lifted it over the tile and slid it while standing in the store before the inside bars were removed.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Does anyone else have a problem with this? Neil can you address this issue? Can you get in the window with the cage there? Can you pry the cage from the floor and slide it while standing outside behind the bars? Thanx Casey
Does anyone else have a problem with this? Neil can you address this issue? Can you get in the window with the cage there? Can you pry the cage from the floor and slide it while standing outside behind the bars? Thanx Casey
josie arnold
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ok i wasnt gonna post again but after reading latest post i do want to say afew things.....
1-dave sorry but plz take me off your list of people to go to court against neil....I want no part of this mess....yes i no neil very well,but that i will not talk about because i worked for him then....so for me to do the he said,she said crap would only make me look bad,since i have my own store to take care of......that would be bad business if i say things i know....
2- as for the email neil sent out talking about shooting me well i didnt take it as a joke, and neil if it was, not funny at all...and i will not stand up for neil either.....no way ..tryin to stay clear of all this time bomb..
3-i would love to know the truth of who robbed the snake pit even more so now because back when that happened in dec neil stated on the old boi that i was the one behind it and people accused me with no proof and some even wrote that i should go to prison for killing the animals,but neil knew for a fact it was not me and he also knows for a fact i would never hurt any animals.....ever.....i hope we all find out the truth soon.......
and for neils lawyer just for the record i am not slandering him in any way ........ i am stating my opions.........my god given right.....
1-dave sorry but plz take me off your list of people to go to court against neil....I want no part of this mess....yes i no neil very well,but that i will not talk about because i worked for him then....so for me to do the he said,she said crap would only make me look bad,since i have my own store to take care of......that would be bad business if i say things i know....
2- as for the email neil sent out talking about shooting me well i didnt take it as a joke, and neil if it was, not funny at all...and i will not stand up for neil either.....no way ..tryin to stay clear of all this time bomb..
3-i would love to know the truth of who robbed the snake pit even more so now because back when that happened in dec neil stated on the old boi that i was the one behind it and people accused me with no proof and some even wrote that i should go to prison for killing the animals,but neil knew for a fact it was not me and he also knows for a fact i would never hurt any animals.....ever.....i hope we all find out the truth soon.......
and for neils lawyer just for the record i am not slandering him in any way ........ i am stating my opions.........my god given right.....
Gino_From_Da_Bronx
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Okay, I am trying to put together a complete list of all of the lies that Neil has entangled hiself with. And these are certainly not he said/she said items. These are where, first he claims one thing, and then when called on it, he completely changes his story. If I have omitted any, please feel free to enlighten us all. And I sure hope that we have enough bandwidth for all of this.
1. First, Neil claims that he spent 'a couple of months' in jail back in the 70's.
After some minor inquiries, those 60 days magnify eponentially. Last count had it at over 14 months for a doobie (we believe you, Neil, 'cough, cough'<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>.
2. Neil tells us that one of the animals taken in the December burglary was a 'motleyish' boa.
Julie Moore comes on to say that she had seen it, dead, in his freezer just days before. I am pretty sure that is wasn't resurrected (also known as 'bill cagling' a boa). Then Neil comes on to tell us about his (convenient) lapse of memory. Can we all say i-n-s-u-r-a-n-c-e f-r-a-u-d?
3. Police reports: Neil swears that, not only did he make one for the December burglary, but he also had it right there in his hands. When asked for it, he cant provide it. Then he gives us the case numbers for a variety of other incidences.
But now it has showed up again. Filed after the fact? It's possible.
4. Neil tells us of his talk with Det Cole.
Det Cole says that it never took place.
And this one is my favourite...
5. Neil says that he has no animosity towards Josie Arnold.
Before we know it, an email pops up with a death threat in it (which I take VERY seriously).
Any more?
Gino (Beniquez) From Da Bronx
1. First, Neil claims that he spent 'a couple of months' in jail back in the 70's.
After some minor inquiries, those 60 days magnify eponentially. Last count had it at over 14 months for a doobie (we believe you, Neil, 'cough, cough'<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='
'>.2. Neil tells us that one of the animals taken in the December burglary was a 'motleyish' boa.
Julie Moore comes on to say that she had seen it, dead, in his freezer just days before. I am pretty sure that is wasn't resurrected (also known as 'bill cagling' a boa). Then Neil comes on to tell us about his (convenient) lapse of memory. Can we all say i-n-s-u-r-a-n-c-e f-r-a-u-d?
3. Police reports: Neil swears that, not only did he make one for the December burglary, but he also had it right there in his hands. When asked for it, he cant provide it. Then he gives us the case numbers for a variety of other incidences.
But now it has showed up again. Filed after the fact? It's possible.
4. Neil tells us of his talk with Det Cole.
Det Cole says that it never took place.
And this one is my favourite...
5. Neil says that he has no animosity towards Josie Arnold.
Before we know it, an email pops up with a death threat in it (which I take VERY seriously).
Any more?
Gino (Beniquez) From Da Bronx
EMERALDGUY33
New member
Can one of y'all tell me what really happened to Jimmy Hoffa?
What about the "grassy knoll"? I also have questions concerning the Loch Ness Monster and BigFoot. I want answers and I want proof for crying out loud!!!
What about the "grassy knoll"? I also have questions concerning the Loch Ness Monster and BigFoot. I want answers and I want proof for crying out loud!!!
Darin Chappell
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Yeah Gino,
Don't forget about the three-way story on the VCR from this most recent burglary (see above posts)! That's a doosie!
Don't forget about the three-way story on the VCR from this most recent burglary (see above posts)! That's a doosie!
Dave Lawson
New member
Casey.To answer your question,No there is "NO WAY" anyone could have gotten in without moving that cage several feet (say 3") from the wall the cage covered the window completely with a foot or 2 on each side.The cage could not have been moved from outside the reason for that is :I am 6' - 2" and standing out side at the window the bottom of the frame is at my naval so you would be pushing up and in.The cage was moved only about 18" from the wall (witnesses said) which left no room to enter.There was also a large tank on a stand that butted up to the cage it was moved away the the cage but not tipped over I was ask to see if I could move the cage and I could bearly get it 1 inch off the floor using my legs,back and arms . understand I am a large man (people that know me can tell you that) I can bench 285 pounds.I hope this helps you to understand.