Time To Cool Off

[Cheryl Marchek AKA JM]

Since the closing of the WS moderator program, I have opened threads on the BOI exactly 3 times...

It was closed?
Wow I'm really behind.......I didn't even know

 

[WebSlave]

Two things here Rich.

First, there is a difference between making tweaks and full blown changes. What has occurred often has been full blown change.

Second, I never said the changes were the sole reason, only that they have helped contribute to things going downhill. Some of the reasons you will never be able to control or stop. Hence my post about a small town growing into a big city. There are just downsides to it that come with the territory of getting big.

There are other factors as well. Many in fact. As much as we want there to be a simple answers to all our problems, very often there are not. We just have to sleep well at night knowing we did the very best we could.

First off, I believe a lot of people are looking at the past here through rose colored glasses. There have ALWAYS been problems with people complaining about them. I believe the history is all still here for everyone to check up on this. Perhaps looking into WHY I made the changes I did would be instructive to some. Why did I implement the paid member requirement to post on the BOI, for instance? Why did I implement the warning system? Why did I change the karma system so that only positive karma can be applied? Why did I get hardline on enforcing the rules for a period of time? Why did I drop it later? Why did I create the WS mods program and then step away for a stretch? Why did I put in discussion forum mods then boot a group of them out of here?

All the while people were beating up on me to make changes, then beating up on me after I did. How do you address and fix problems perceived here WITHOUT making changes that you believe will help?

When I appear to care too much and am too involved, people bitched about it and said I need to step away and become less involved. When I do step away and try to offload some of the workload and responsibility onto some others, the bitching then just changes to that new target.

I have good guys here on this site that turned bad. Bad guys pretending to be good and used this site to make their kills. I also have otherwise good guys who pretended to be bad guys with fake registrations to make a point about their disgruntlement with policy changes, then apparently mutated into what they were pretending to be. I'm sure they are quite pissed at me for outing them in order to get that crap to STOP.

I have people pounding the piss out of me because I would like to make some money off of this site to make the headaches somewhat bearable. People who are in the business to sell their own animals to make a profit from their own efforts yet feeling that such a goal of my own is unethical.

Quite honestly, after all the above and all the time that has passed, why should I still give a crap about all this?

If I am beat up on when I give a crap and try to make things better, and I am also beat up on when I don't give a crap, which of those two options is the better avenue for me to take? Is the beating better or worse if I am putting less effort into it prior to the beating? Why should I work so hard at this just to get the same results I would get for not working at all?

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Ive taken a break from the site, more... because im busy. Im working, ill come home, check the snakes, and go to bed. That or im out with friends and other such things enjoying the not so dramatic world that i truly do try my best to surround myself in.

When i need a good dose of drama, or just to see how everyone else i care about here is doing, i drop in. and lately, its been less because the drama, truly does outweigh the good stuff that i really stick around for. Chat is the main place for me, the people i have met in there are people that i care about and would love to eventually meet. Some of them, i already have too.

I try to post things that can take people away from the BOI, and show pictures and such things, and to just sort of update about myself. I love reading about Cheryls Emu ( plus i love her writing style! its fun, and entertaining to read!) and seeing how maybe Haralds bulls and boas are doing, Or maybe if Bry and Laur are going to have snake babies soon! ( cause im sure everyone agrees those two DESERVE IT!) ^_- . I like to read the discussions that go on about certain animals, or the jokes that are posted in Just for Laughs, or looking at the classifieds to see what people have to offer. I look forward to a bunch of specific members posts/pictures when i come here, and while im not going to go crazy and name every single one of you, more than likely, if weve exchanged a couple comments/posts/PM's or talked in chat, i want to see how you are doing, and id love to see how your critters are when im not around to Chat as much.

What i dont like to see, or would just like seeing less of, is the bickering, petty posts that truly just do not belong anywhere but in Hell.
maybe the answer is simply populating the posts that are going downhill and attacking eachother, more often in that forum. Maybe then... things might go along a little smoother. who knows, maybe its been tried before...

I still love fauna, but i have been more absent. its been a nice break, and i Will try my best as well, to help in whatever way i can... to bring this site back and get the GOOD information flowing.

 

[ravensgait]

Rich , no rose colored glasses here lost them years ago. I remember how it was and what many of the problems were. But if there is a rock in the path why not just a few degrees rudder to port or starboard instead of a turn so hard you lose some passengers overboard.
And I'm not bitching at you or complaining or trying to tell you what to do.. I'm just telling it as I see it.

Heck I've seen the same things you have and when you have proposed changes I've never been doom and gloom about them, I just wait to see how it works out and then bitch at ya I know you get these comments from lots of people but hey I'm not one of the bitchers as I see very clearly that it is your site, I may make a suggestion but you blowing them off doesn't bother me at all, heck I'm used to that my wife ignores my suggestions all the time !!

I haven't run off because of your changes, I've been here except when too busy to spend much time here. There are a number of folks here that didn't get upset or run off for a while when you made changes and will likely be here after your next set of changes.. Randy

 

[ravensgait]

Thanks Sammy, you know that old saying about the blind pig and shrooms lol or was it acorns... Randy

 

[KelliH]

I really think it's just a matter of getting rid of some of the people that cause the problems here. Remove them from the equation, and you remove most of the problem. Also, run the site the way YOU want to. Of course some things will change over time, but I do agree with what was stated above about consistency being important. The most important thing though is to stop putting up with the blatantly off topic and offensive posts that are for the most part made by a small group of people. As long as they get away with it it will continue, however.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Michael, thank you for your thoughtful thread. Laura and Michael... I deeply appreciate your kind words towards me. I too, have had the privilege of meeting and knowing some of the finest reptile keepers in the world, and you two are most certainly among them.

I have also had the opportunity to meet and know some of the biggest liars, cheaters, and 'Bad Guys' in the world... most of whom were exposed right here on Fauna's BOI! In far too many cases, even if some of them were not exposed as legitimate Bad Guys, their deplorable conduct and actions in their posts here on this website have tagged them as such in my opinion.

There are certain people who are there for almost no other purpose than that of trying to bait others into fights. There are people (like me) who sometimes allow themselves to get egged into those fights, and for my part in the recent drama, I apologize.

I couldn't agree more, and I admit that I have been lured in to this behavior. For this, I would like to apologize to WebSlave, the MODS, and to the members of Fauna.

Because we, as a race, just cannot handle true freedom. We cannot stand to allow others to exercise it and when WE have it at our disposal, we turn it into something ugly.

I think we tend to feel that freedom is implied in all that we do. This could not be further from the truth. Freedom is a priviledge that is earned, and not owed. We are all held accountable for our actions, and there are consequences for everything we do.... positive and negative. The rewards for good behavior are priviledges and freedoms. Unfortunately, it's those that can't seem to assume accountability for their own actions that dictate the freedoms for the rest of us.

I don't know. Maybe I've just been far too easy on what I allow here. Maybe I hoped given enough freedom for a long enough time, people would come to appreciate this, learn of it's value, and perhaps make the changes within themselves to make sure it doesn't go away. I thought people came to this site for that kind of freedom, and was the reason some stayed. But now I'm not so certain.

Just my thoughts and observations, Rich... but, you don't care about this website as much as you once did. Rightfully and justifyably so. But, it shows. If you don't care about Fauna like you once did, it can't be expected for others to care, either. If you want to care about this website again, only you have the power to make it the place you envision it to be. If you are just too worn out, then you and the rest of us will simply have to accept what it has become.

 

[dsirkle]

One of the great things about this site to me has been the free speech that has been allowed here. When genuine debate is occurring with people actually attempting to argue positions on an issue while remaining basically respectful toward one another it is pretty stimulating. When it breaks down to where people are just trading insults for the sake of trading insults it is pretty obvious to most as well as unappreciated. My signature line was intended to make this point.This could possibly be correctly viewed by our host as an abuse of privilege. Would it be so hard (Ha! Little does he know) to make rules to enforce those fairly obvious boundaries, most likely utilizing the Moderators? The consequences of violating the code of behavior could be determined by the Mods and those that disagreed with those determinations could just learn to live with it.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Just now found this thread, and after reading every post, one characteristic stood out. There's not a single post by anyone who is not already a long-standing member, vetted to a reasonable extent. What a pleasant thread if for no other reason!

Rich, et al. The world tends towards entropy. Unless an adequate force is applied to restore order, the BOI will tend to the lowest common denominator. Those that find their own individual efforts to engage in meaningful dialogue pasted over by idiots will eventually stop trying. Speaking for my own arrogant self, why do I want to participate in a discussion where half the respondents are miscreants, and I have to wait 6-10 posts to find a response of intelligent dialogue ? On a side note, did your mod-forum create an attaction for educated discussion to go behind closed doors ? In the end, why bother ? Before it is taken personally, moderation requires effort, and cost, so I am not blaming a soul. I only am saying that you cannot have a more civilized place without it.

Dan Garcia raised the concept a while back about a more exclusive discussion group, viewable by all, but limited in who can participate. Might not be worth the effort, but it would sure be a more welcome place to post. If nothing else. it was evidence of frustration from a solid member.

As for the BOI losing meaning, or however it was put before, its still the first best place to go to note a good or bad transaction. A whole lot of garbage and off-topic bickering may follow, but the BOI still will serve that initial enormous function.

I think the resurrection of the Critical Bill thread was a great place to find folks unworthy of Fauna participation. I agree with all of Jim O's take there.

Drama and stupidity creates hits here. Its the Jerry Spinger formula, and it works. I doubt you can attract back yesteryear by increased moderation. At least not in the short term. With an effort in increased moderaton, you will likely get civility and reduced traffic.

Someone noted that in years past there was more experienced help in some of the side forums. Unfortunately, the reality is that if such help is all volunteer, it will wane. Speaking only for myself, the more I helped in my area of expertise, the more people expected me to help. Heck, can you blame them ? Its free and easy to post your problem and have someone else's homework and time bail you out ! It all comes down to not having the time, and the costs outweighing the benefits.

Wish I could have posted solutions !

 

[Junkyard]

Someone noted that in years past there was more experienced help in some of the side forums. Unfortunately, the reality is that if such help is all volunteer, it will wane. Speaking only for myself, the more I helped in my area of expertise, the more people expected me to help. Heck, can you blame them ? Its free and easy to post your problem and have someone else's homework and time bail you out ! It all comes down to not having the time, and the costs outweighing the benefits.

Wish I could have posted solutions !

I do not blame them at all. Forums in a way are not much different then picking up the phone and calling the expert for help. I am sure you get calls all the time, your expertise is important to chameleon keepers. Forums can be a different way to interact with others.

Coming from my own experience, sure I ask for help on these forums, it is part of my homework and helps my education. It used to be all in books at the library, now with interactive help, we are learning more with gathered information from all over, rather than a couple of people writing down their thoughts and not getting any feed back.

Realistically, these forums are, in ways, better then books. I am one who likes to share my knowledge, because others shared it with me.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Michael,

Very accurate words:

Realistically, these forums are, in ways, better then books. I am one who likes to share my knowledge, because others shared it with me.

I think I can speak for all who have invested small fortunes and enormous amounts of time to become "experts" in their fields that there is always pleasure found in being able to share information. There are certainly upsides to it all. But it comes down to time. The more one participates, especially if annointed an "expert", the more one's chain is pulled.

Before I sound too arrogant, a very good friend, who is of enormous standing in the community, often reminds me that his definition of "expert" in a certain category of reptiles is being the one that has killed in large numbers, if not the most, in that species of claimed knowledge. In that vein, I am brilliant. If God is a chameleon, I'm screwed.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Unless an adequate force is applied to restore order, the BOI will tend to the lowest common denominator.

Exactly!!!!!!!

 

[Junkyard]

Jim, I understand what you mean.

 

[WebSlave]

Unless an adequate force is applied to restore order, the BOI will tend to the lowest common denominator.

Exactly!!!!!!!

No. I think it is more like...

Unless an adequate force is applied to restore order, the PEOPLE within the BOI will tend to revert to animals.

 

[WebSlave]

Rich,

It aint the site. It's the people. Or should I say the amount of people.

It is kinda like that nice small quaint small town that grows up. Once upon a time it was all strawberries and cream. Everyone knew each other by their first name, no one locked their doors at night, people went out of their way to help their neighbors, everyone went to the town functions and shared their lives with one another.

Then the small town grew into a big city. The population grew immensely, including a few that are bad apples who steal and take advantage of the trusting neighbors, so people stop taking the time to get to really get know each other, no one trusts each other anymore because of these things, they start locking their doors, quit helping their neighbors and stopped joining community functions and just do things with those they feel completely safe around.

Who said growing bigger was a good thing?

Actually, I disagree with this analogy.

We currently have something like 47,000 registered members, but ONLY getting between 800 and 900 of them checking in here within a 24 hour period.

That's nothing. Matter of fact, it is probably the same, or less, than when everyone is thinking the "golden years" of the BOI took place. So it has nothing to do with total numbers at all. It is more like the attitudes of the members themselves have changed over time.

 

[WebSlave]

I can make a suggestion to prevent the bumping of zombie threads. When a thread has been stale for a period of time (six months?) lock it. Weekly cron job on the server should be able to go through the database and do it for you. If there is a need to add material to such a thread, a request can be made to the moderator to unlock it.

Sorry, but no, I don't think that is the best course to take. There could be any number of legitimate reasons for someone wanting to resurrect an old thread. I've always viewed locking a thread as telling everyone "I don't want you talking about this topic any longer." And I have used that in the past for exactly that kind of reason. When threads would blow up, I have locked them with the warning that anyone just trying to pick up the baton in a new thread will have that thread deleted.

There is also a legal reason against locking threads. Locking a thread could be construed as becoming a co-author of a thread, which would put the person doing the locking in legal jeopardy if said thread ever triggers litigation from the parties involved. Accordingly, I have warned my moderators about being VERY circumspect when modifying threads in this and other manners.

 

[WebSlave]

IMHO Starting a new thread in the BOI that is not related to a transaction should not be tolerated.
A good guy or bad guy post should be related to a business transaction between the poster and the subject of the post, a query asking about someone should be just that - a query asking about someone.

Thus starting a thread not involving a transaction simply to link to another thread should be a violation of the rules and locked.

It won't stop all the drama but it will stop the old thread bumping.

Well, that depends. How many different forms of information and sources of opinions would you like to have concerning someone you were preparing to spend thousands of dollars on shortly? Wouldn't you like to have the WHOLE picture of who it is you are trusting with your money?

 

[WebSlave]

I guarantee if the site takes a hard-line on posts some asking for it will be demanding that it be removed later because it somehow infringed on what they wanted to post. Frankly, I'm at a loss at what to suggest.

During the period of time when I was VERY hard lined about enforcing the rules with the time when I received, BY FAR, the greatest number of threats, invective, and downright nastiness from members here on this site. People felt they had a RIGHT to be derogatory to someone else here. That they should be allowed to belittle someone and damn my eyes for stopping them from doing that.........

No matter where you draw the line in enforcing the rules, there will be a bunch of people saying it is too close to their side of what they consider as their freedom of expression. That it is way too restrictive and I am giving preferential treatment to the other group who appears happy with the arrangement. Been there, and done that.

And then there will be those who will try their best to get their toes over the line as much as possible without triggering the penalties. And they will afterwards yelp bloody murder that I had misinterpretted their intentions or their lapse was a simple mistake. Again, been there and done that.

 

[WebSlave]

First, there is a difference between making tweaks and full blown changes. What has occurred often has been full blown change.

Trying to think of the changes and put it in this perspective.....

What changes COULD have been made tweaks rather than full blown changes? When the decision was made to restrict posting on the BOI to paid members with the goal to raise the level of credibility there, how could that have been handled differently so it appeared to be a tweak? $10 per year was definitely more "tweaky" than the normal $25 membership, wasn't it? Perhaps I should have made that Participant membership $10 for 20 years rather than per year?

Let's see, how about the change to strict enforcement of the rules? That was in response to not only a LOT of complaints I was getting (pretty much similar to what I am hearing now) plus a poll I ran asking about how I should handle enforcement of the rules. From what I recall, the greater majority voted for "ruthless" enforcement of the rules. So with what seemed like popular pre-support, I did exactly that. So would teaking mean easing into that "ruthless" enforcement? Perhaps, but from what I was hearing and seeing, it seemed like the membership needed a sharp slap in the face to bring things around. Which while it did bring the garbage to an abrupt halt, it also became evident that it just was not what the membership had in mind. What they apparently had in mind was that the rules needed to be enforced against the "other guy" and not them.

Changes have been made in order to make corrections in the direction of this site when it appeared to be going astray. Quite frankly, unless I had set this site up PERFECTLY from the start, changes were inevitable. But without that crystal ball to see into the future and plan accordingly, the BEST I could hope to do was to make changes on the fly, sometimes abruptly when it appeared necessary, and hope they make things better than they were. As someone mentioned, apparently many people just don't like ANY change, no matter why it was implemented, what it is helping now, and how it may make things better in the future. The obvious assumption there is that those people preferred NO changes, regardless of any necessity to implement them.

I guess I have just never been afraid of changes and just accept that they are a part of life. So I have no qualms at all about making MAJOR changes to any aspect of my life at the drop of a hat. This is just a message board website running on a computer. Changes take place all of the time. A major upgrade is going to take place in the message board software here as soon as the newest version is considered as stable. There WILL be some substantial changes in the way things work here. No doubt about it.

Sorry about that, but change is inevitable and we all just have to deal with it.

 

[WebSlave]

I try to post things that can take people away from the BOI, and show pictures and such things, and to just sort of update about myself. I love reading about Cheryls Emu ( plus i love her writing style! its fun, and entertaining to read!) and seeing how maybe Haralds bulls and boas are doing, Or maybe if Bry and Laur are going to have snake babies soon! ( cause im sure everyone agrees those two DESERVE IT!) ^_- . I like to read the discussions that go on about certain animals, or the jokes that are posted in Just for Laughs, or looking at the classifieds to see what people have to offer. I look forward to a bunch of specific members posts/pictures when i come here, and while im not going to go crazy and name every single one of you, more than likely, if weve exchanged a couple comments/posts/PM's or talked in chat, i want to see how you are doing, and id love to see how your critters are when im not around to Chat as much.

I still love fauna, but i have been more absent. its been a nice break, and i Will try my best as well, to help in whatever way i can... to bring this site back and get the GOOD information flowing.

Well, this could certainly be the silver lining to the dark cloud of the BOI. I have been trying to get the discussion forums active for YEARS now and have failed completely. So much so that had I had the time in the last couple of weeks, most would have been rolled together into single larger forums. In other words, I was intending to take ALL of the snake related discussion forums and just move all the post into a general Snake Discussion Forum. Same thing for all the lizard forums.

But if the ravages of the BOI instead force people to the Discussion forums, maybe this is a good thing in some respects.

I'll just have to see how that all plays out. With breeding season in full swing, it will be a while before I can address any such forum structure changes anyway....