To Jump or Not To Jump

[bpc]

Tom, you're making my point for me!

Take axanthic for example. If your snake lacks yellow pigment it is an Axanthic period.

It doesn't have to be proven, it shows the trait. The word pastel is an adjective. It goes both ways, if one chooses to market an animal with an adjective then they can't cry foul when others choose the same adjective to describe thiers. I'm sorry that whoever produced these snakes chose that word to market them. But, just because they did so, does not mean that the word can never be used again by someone else to describe another snake. Mojave is probably a better choice. It's not an adjective. So in that case they get to create thier own definition. But, they don't get a trademark on the word or snakes which exhibit those traits. Anyone who has a snake that fits the definition could then call thiers Mojave.

As for the "$100 pastel" I own as of now. The snake I am speaking of will be sold for much more than $100. And I'll put a picture of it up against your pic anytime. Frankily, I think mine blows yours away. Problem is I don't know how to post pics. I will work on that this weekend. I do have a digital camera and can email out some pics (I'll have to take some first). So, stay tuned. I'll try to be ready with pics tonight.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Mojave is probably a better choice. It's not an adjective. So in that case they get to create thier own definition.

My point exaclty. Now with regards to pastels. In the painters lingo a pastel color is a color that is subdued, not as intense. From that perspective "pastel" boas are more adjusted to the term than pastel ball pythons. A high contrast animal is not a pastel, pastel is the fading-away color in the pattern, something like with the blushing. Again in art, pastel colors are those that, although retaining the original base, they are not as intense. In MHO the term pastels was not very well applied to the ball pythons that are termed as such.

Regards.

 

[Seamus Haley]

There are different terms that can be used and have different origins...

As I said earlier, terms related directly to pigment production are not identical to terms used solely as a selling point...

Axanthic literally means "Devoid of Yellow Pigment"

Pastel by dictionary definitions is a much more subjective term...

HOWEVER...

In the industry, it is reccognized as being applicable to certain patterns, to a certain appearance. Once that happens, especially once it is applied widely to a genetically proven morph, it becomes off limits for animals that aren't displaying identical traits.

You can't say there is no industry standard for Pastel ball pythons because there IS... If you showed individuals specializing in regius morphs your kinda light colored not exactly normal imports, how many of them would, without prompting, label them pastel?

Once a term becomes reccognized as being associated with a specific phenotype or, even more importantly, genotype... Using it to describe animals that do not qualify becomes misrepresentative.

Could I sell reddish dragons as Sandfires if they couldn't be traced back to Sandfire Dragon Ranch without being deceptive?

Could I sell normal ball pythons as piebalds without it being deceptive? I mean, my dictionary here defines it as "1 : of different colors; especially : spotted or blotched with black and white 2 : composed of incongruous parts " normal ball pythons are of different colors...

If the above are unacceptable, how is selling lightish balls as pastels any different?

Pastel is applied to a particular genetically proven morph. As such, it loses it's status as "just an adjective" when it's used specifically to describe ball pythons.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Going back to the original question on this thread, "to jump or not to jump"? What should we do with an ad like the following

I was told this snake was hatched out of a clutch containing piebalds...I am no authority on ball python morphs, but this snake does have a cluster of snow white scales, about the size of a dime, on her. She is approximately 5 years old, and has never been bred. She is feeding on frozen thawed rats and she is a large, healthy animal, approx 3 1/2 - 4 ft long. I do not have much information on this snake, got her as a trade in at a show...I will accept any reasonable offers!!! Let me know what you think! Thank you.

 

[meretseger]

I always thought piebald could be as small as a few scales, and that the amount of white wasn't directly inheiritable. I could be wrong, though. He never says in the ad how much he's charging, but I hope the buyer would understand the risk that whatever that spot is might not be genetic.

Erin B.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Erin,

Look a the black surrounding the white scales. That is clearly an old scar, no doubt about it. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and agree that he doesn't know. But any ways, should one let something like this go and allow a buyer to pay $2,000 for that snake when it's clearly worth the price of an adult normal ball python female ($200). Decisions, decisions...

 

[bpc]

I think I got it

OK guys, here goes nothing. It worked in the test area so I'll try it here.

The one in the foreground is what I would call a pastel. It has the extremely light (blushing) head. A soft hew to the gold and huge gold eyelines which seem to lighten the eye itself. The one in back is close but I would probably just call it extra nice. The one on the left is what I call a normal.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Brian...

Why not just write your own BOI post explaining that you misrepresent your animals and add ludicrous markups past what would be considered a reasonable profit and sell normal animals as posessing a trait that inexperienced keepers would see as desireable and not have the knowledge to know is not the case?

Ball pythons are a species that exhibits a great deal of variety in the "normal" phenotype, what you are doing is misrepresenting normal deviations by applying a term commonly accepted as being specific to a genetic morph.

This is almost as bad as the ad I saw selling half changed GTPs as "Christmas Morphs" because they were red and green.

Simply a lack of ethics.

 

[bpc]

Once a term becomes reccognized as being associated with a specific phenotype or, even more importantly, genotype... Using it to describe animals that do not qualify becomes misrepresentative.

Seamus, where do I sign up a term so that it can be "recognized?" And man, I bet the guy who registered the term "okeetee" and "creamsicle" is really pissed. I would like to claim "tangerine boa." That way when my screaming orange boa downstairs drops her first litter everyone will have to follow my definition of just exactly what a tangerine boa is or is not.

I understand the reason everyone tries so hard to defend these terms. It's real easy, ($$$$$$$$$$). After you spend 10k on a snake you want to think you're one of very few people with that snake. I have no problem with someone using a line like "John Smith line pastel," but you cannot trademark the adjective "pastel." That ball I just posted has "a soft hew" to it's color. Therefor, it fits the definition of pastel. Frankly, I think it fits your definition too.

Based on your logic if I hatched a bright green corn snake tomorrow and decided to call it the "Flouresent corn," no one else could ever use that name unless they used my bloodline to create their offspring. Even if they produced hundreds of these bright green corn snakes, they wouldn't really be "flouresent corns" because they didn't come with/from my genotype.

 

[bpc]

OK Seamus, so you're saying that because Tom payed thousands of dollars for his snake and has a piece of paper from some breeder it has more inherant value than mine. Tom's snake has a very light colored head.....so does mine. Tom's has stunning yellow color that is different than the "industry standard"........so does mine. Tom's has bright wide gold lines down the side of it's face......so does mine. Tom's has light colored irises....so does mine.

I think I have the right to sell that snake as a farm raised "pastel." I make absolutely no claims as to it's genetics, none. The snake is "pastel" as described by it's phenotype. When the first person tried to cross Sharp and Kahl strain albino boas, and all the babies came out normal phenotypically did that then mean that the second strain to hit the market was no longer albino? I mean after all, (for the sake of arguement lets say Kahl was first), Peter Kahl had already claimed the term "albino boa." And if the Sharp strain didn't have the same genotype then, we can't really call it albino anymore now can we?

If you put out a definition of pastel and then someone else's snake lives up to the phenotype, you have to accept them. They may not be "Snakekeeper line pastels" but they are still pastels. Just the same as both Kahl and Sharp strains are albino.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Brian,

If you happen to sell that snake as a pastel you are going to get in trouble. Someone might take you to court and you will loose big time. I understand what you are saying with regards to the subtlety of using the term "pastel". But believe me, it is used to name a completely different kind of snake that once bred to each other will produce a super pastel or when bred to a normal part of the offspring will resemble (as it is co-dominant) the pastel. This snake of yours once bred to another will produce normal ball pythons with different shades of browns, etc. typical of the variation of normal ball pythons. Let me put it this way, the python in the back has quite a bit of white, why not calling it piebald then?

Regards.

 

[bpc]

WHAT COURT?

Alvaro, how do you, I, or the fly on the wall, know what anything will produce when bred to something else! Who's to say mine doesn't carry the same exact sequence of genes coding for those traits that the others do? Personnally, I seriously doubt it does, but I even more seriously doubt that ANYONE ANYWHERE can trademark an adjective.

Sandfire is the name of a company which produces red/orange bearded dragons. The name is Sandfire Dragon Ranch. They are the only people allowed (by law) to sell "Sandfire dragons." Yes, one could resale their dragons purchased from Sandfire (with a receipt) and stay out of trouble. But you can't call any red/orange bearded dragon a "Sandfire." You could certainly call them red/orange right? You could call them anything you what except "Sandfire" because that is the name of a business.

I'll assume based on earlier posts that the name of the business who "discovered" pastel balls is Snakekeeper. They can certainly hold claim to the name "Snakekeeper Pastel(s)." I will not argue that. But they cannot then say that only thier snakes can be considered pastel. No more than Sandfire can claim that only thier dragons can be red/orange. What else are we supposed to call red/orange dragons? "Outback phase" perhaps? Hey, I want the rights to that one by the way. The dragons are red and orange, my snake has a pastel like appearance (a soft hew -dictionary definition).

What phenotypic trait is my snake not showing? If the dragon is red and orange is can be called a red/orange breaded dragon. My snake has a light colored head, more gold in the irises than usual, some blushing highlights, and a "soft hew" to it's light golden pattern. It is of the pastel phenotype, It is not, nor have I even once claimed it to be a "Snakekeeper Pastel."

Probably the closest we could come to this argument outside the snake business, is what many people call UPS brown. The color they paint thier trucks has a name (wish I could remember it right now). You can walk into your local paint store and buy a gallon of it tomorrow. You could take that gallon of paint home and paint your Ford F350 with it, and then have the words "BIG BROWN TRUCK" put across your windshield. Would you be breaking the law? I don't think so, after all, your truck is big and brown. Now, if you then paint the letters "UPS" on the side of your truck and try to start your own courier service, I have a feeling a court date is in your future.

I make no claims, none whatsoever, as to the genetic ability of this snake to produce any offspring whatsoever. Could be as sterile as a 120 year woman for all I know. Also, I have been, and always will be, totally upfront with my customers as to exactly what they are buying. This snake will be described as I have decribed it above, phenotypically pastel (the noncapitalized adjective form of the word) only, and farm raised in Africa. And yall are assumming I'm going to try and sell this thing for 10k tomorrow or something. I'm not. But when and if I do try to sell it, I can use the word pastel to describe it, just as everyone now uses the word okeetee to describe big pretty corn snakes.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Brian,

You can say that your python is "pastelish", pastel color, etc. A different story will be to label him as "a pastel". Every ball python of the 3000 lots that come in those shipments from Ghana is a possible for piebald, albino, axanthic, etc. In theory there is maybe one chance in 1,000,000,000 for them to carry the gene, but there is a chance. It would be suicidal to sell them as "possible" for anything.

Maybe my example was a tad extreme, but I can assure you that if someone sells today a normal ball python claiming it to be "a pastel" he might end in court (obviously it would depend on the money involved in the transaction). Guess who are going to be the expert witnesses called by the judge? The Sutherland's, Graziani's, and Barker's of the world. Care to guess what they are going to say about that baby ball? Guess who is going to loose? Remember Laura Silakowski's case? She won in court a case of misrepresentation of hetero for albinos! How difficult do you think it would be to determine that this ball is not "a pastel" as determined by current genetic standards?

Regards.

 

[bpc]

I don't know about that case, but would love to read about it. Send me some info please. I still believe I can call this snake "pastel." Especially, if I qualify it as I've said before. I'm making NO CLAIM OF GENOTYPE. Phenotypically pastel only. Do you see it lacking any phenotypic trait needed to be called pastel?

You can't take a word out of the dictionary because someone has already used it. And I don't think just because "pastel" balls are expensive they would get any more protection in a court of law than say a "busy ball python," or a blushing ball," or a "melting pattern ball." These terms, as well as, the adjective pastel, are subjective. "Snakekeeper line Pastel" is not. He (and all his customers) can easily protect his line and it's genotype.

 

[Seamus Haley]

I mean after all, (for the sake of arguement lets say Kahl was first), Peter Kahl had already claimed the term "albino boa." And if the Sharp strain didn't have the same genotype then, we can't really call it albino anymore now can we?

You are continually making the mistake of confusing terms used specifically to describe a biological concept with those subjective terms applied to help boost sales.

Albinism can have multiple causes, the word itself is directly related to a biological anomaly...

Pastel is a term that was applied to an animal as a selling point, to identify both phenotype and, once it was proven out, genotype.

Since there is, despite your apparant claims to the contrary, an industry reccognition of the equation between selling point term and biological alteration of phenotype, you misrepresent an animal by applying a term to it that comes with an added meaning and implies a genetic morph as you have.

OK Seamus, so you're saying that because Tom payed thousands of dollars for his snake and has a piece of paper from some breeder it has more inherant value than mine.

Yes. I am.

Tom's snake is carrying genes that will allow more animals with the same traits to be produced...

Tom's snake was properly represented by the industry reccognized terms for it's phenotype AND genotype.

Seamus, where do I sign up a term so that it can be "recognized?"

You know very well that it's a matter of public reccognition. Once the term is widely applied, it sticks. In the instance of Pastel, it was applied and stuck to a phenotype caused by a specific genotype.

A genotype your animals have not been proven to have.

That ball I just posted has "a soft hew" to it's color. Therefor, it fits the definition of pastel. Frankly, I think it fits your definition too.

It does not fit my definition. The definition of "pastel" AS IT RELATES TO BALL PYTHONS is a soft hue CAUSED BY A GENETIC MUTATION.

Based on your logic if I hatched a bright green corn snake tomorrow and decided to call it the "Flouresent corn," no one else could ever use that name unless they used my bloodline to create their offspring.

If... you were to do so... And if your bright green corn snake was proven to be genetic... And if your Flourescent Corns were widely called Flourescent Corns, to the point where the pattern is reccognized when not labeled... Yes, essentially nobody could ethically use the name flourescent corn unless it had an identical genotype to the animals you produced.

Again, there is a difference between terms that define the physiological difference and one that started as an adjective unrelated to biology and became commonly associated with a specific pattern.

But they cannot then say that only thier snakes can be considered pastel.

I propose an experiment... go to a forum where people might not be aware of this thread and pose an innocent and neutral question...

Like the BP forum over at... the other site... and just ask...

"In Ball Pythons, are pastels a genetically proven morph?"

If the answer is as it should be (overwhemlingly "Yes.") and I seriously suspect it will be... Then you are using a term that is reccognized to have certain qualities inherent in it, one of which is that it is applied to a specific genetic pattern. Since your animals have not been proven to hold the same genetics, you are misrepresenting the animals you have for sale by using the term.

The dragons are red and orange, my snake has a pastel like appearance (a soft hew -dictionary definition).

Alright then... "piebald" can be quickly defined as being "Of different colors" every ball python on the planet except snows just became Piebald. Do you see the problem with that?

What phenotypic trait is my snake not showing?

You don't seem to be willing to admit it, but...

Genotype matters.

Pastel is used within the realm of ball python sales to indicate a specific genotype.

And yall are assumming I'm going to try and sell this thing for 10k tomorrow or something. I'm not. But when and if I do try to sell it, I can use the word pastel to describe it

Will you be selling them/it for more than any ball pythons you have of similar ages and genders that have a more commonly seen darker color?

Has it been proven to have a genotype that is compatible with the Pastels already on the market?

If you're so up front and honest with your customers about this... why use the term at all? I mean, you'll be very carefully explaining to every single person that it's not a genetically proven morph and explaining that chances are pretty low that it would ever prove out and that you don't have any adults from the same bloodline that you know for a fact held this color and can't even guarantee that it will look like that after it's next shed...

So why not just call it "Light colored ball python" and avoid even the faintest hint of the possibility that someone who doesn't know better might be confused?

As has been said... the dictionary defenition of "pastel" really doesn't come quickly to mind when the animal is seen... so it must be an amazing coincidence that you happened to choose that word out of aaaaaaaaaaall the avaliable words... Doubly so since you claim there is no industry reccognition of the morph by that name.

What you are doing is deceptive. It is something that misrepresents your animals as something they are not in order to justify a price increase higher than what you would apply to any other ball python that just happened to look a bit different.

Just as a matter of potentially related interest...

Here's a really... really... light colored ball python. And not being sold as a "Pastel" either.

 

[bpc]

Seamus, you keep talking about what is widely accepted as being the definition for pastel. How many people outside the BP forum (average buyers) do you think could tell you your definition verbatum of pastel? The small number of people who inhabit the BP forum do not the BP world make. The large number of people walking though the large number of reptile shows, pet stores, etc., around the world do.

To most of those people, if they were to look at my snake and the one posted by Tom side by side they could not tell the difference. The genotype only matters if one plans to breed the snake. And if someone is as into balls as you and Tom and Alvaro sees my snake they will ask the questions you already have. When they do, they will get 100% honest answers from me. In fact, they won't even need to because I'll have the cup marked that way anyway.

One more thing, assume for the moment, I keep the snake. Raise it, breed it and all the babies come out looking just like it. Does it's value then go from $50 to $10,000 (or whatever it is Snakekeeper Pastels go for) overnight? I'd assume it would, because then it would be proven right?

How much would you pay right now for a solid white ball python with blue eyes? You'd probably mortage your right nut, correct? I read that a "leucistic" ball python sold for $150,000 dollars about a year ago. The buyer probably paid that hoping to make much more off the offspring. That buyer has no guarantee that the trait is genetic. He has some previous examples to go on, leopard geckos, EDB's, TX rats, etc., but no guarantees. Is he an idiot?

Alvaro said I could call it "pastelish" and get away with it. Ok go with that, how much is it worth? And before you answer consider this, how much was the founding "Snakekeeper Pastel" worth when it was a baby?

 

[Seamus Haley]

I should just point out at this juncture that I don't represent a ball python elite by any stretch of the imagination... With regards to ball python morphs, I'm just an average consumer for a moderately educated herper... But I do know that it's morally questionable to sell an animal under a term that's widely used to indicate a specific genotype when the animal in question is not known to be such.

The closest I've come to a better than average understanding of ball python genetics comes from a few times loitering around Mike Scoppettoulo and Kevin McCurley (And I doubt Kevin would reccognize me as anything other than possibly "That short ugly bald guy who loitered around at shows")...

I do know that pastel is specific to a particular morph though and that the morph in question has been proven to be genetic.

One more thing, assume for the moment, I keep the snake. Raise it, breed it and all the babies come out looking just like it. Does it's value then go from $50 to $10,000 (or whatever it is Snakekeeper Pastels go for) overnight? I'd assume it would, because then it would be proven right?

Pretty much, yes. The odds of a ball python with an unusual appearance proving out genetically are pretty low, if it's an attractive pattern with a high demand, the avaliability is low so the price is high. It takes multiple generations and outcrossings to really be genetically "proven" so a single breeding wouldn't do it *quite* overnight... But if the animal were to start producing similarly patterned/colored offspring and the demand was there... Yeah, it would skyrocket the price.

How much would you pay right now for a solid white ball python with blue eyes?

Not a thing, but I'm kinda sick like that... I admit that most people certainly would mortgage reproductive organs.

 

[Python Dreams]

I really find it hard to believe that you just dont get it???
First off, I believe Graziani had the original pastel. It is not known as a "Snakekeeper Pastel" I only listed them because I purcased her from them. Their are different Pastels brought in from the wild and they are still Pastels although they have no relation to the original. Last year males ranged from $1,000 to $1,500 and females went for $1,750 to $2,500. Super Pastels went for beween $15,000 and $20,000. Their are reasons why Supers are so valuable, but since you are having a hard time coming to grips with an accepted name given to a particular co-dominate genetic trait, we probably shouldn't get into it.
Pastels are very visibly different from all 3 snakes you have posted. Using the term Pastel (accepted name in Ball industry) to describe your snakes is ridiculouos, laughable and a scam. What if someone doesnt ask for you explanation of pastel? Will you let him pay a high price for your normals? At first I was thinking you might post a pic of a pastel, but cmon. I have plenty of light colored ball pythons, or blushing ball pythons, or reduced pattern ball pythons, but give it up already. Do you want to see a pic of some light normals that you would sell as Pastels? How could you even think that your snake displays the same trait as the one I posted? I would give you maybe $50 for each of those if they were females and unless they were over 1000 grams, nothing more than $50. I wouldnt take a male from you for free. They are light normals, nothing more. I will post a pic of my old male Pastel with some other females and my female pastel. There are only 2 Pastels in the group and some good looking normals. You can see what a less stunning Pastel looks like so maybe you can get the picture. Anyone who is into ball Pythons would be able to pick a pastel from your group in a second. I'm surprised that you would rather come off as an ignorant person who wants to change the standards (when you have no idea what your talking about), instead of just picking a different word out of the millions available. Buck Up and produce your own or wait for the price to go down, but dont rip anyone off with the term Pastel for your snakes.
Thanks, Tom Baker

 

[Python Dreams]

Here's a different pic so that the male Pastel stands out. Can you figure out which one is the Pastel Brian?

 

[meretseger]

It would make me very happy if each mutation had its own name and therefore all snakes with that name had compatible traits and could breed with each other and produce like offspring. The only way you get to name a morph is to prove that you have a snake with a new inheiritable mutation. If you're selling an animal that only looks like an exsisting morph but without any genetic links, this should be made very very clear in the ad.

I would like to take this opportunity to be very mad at people who think high orange Kenyan sand boas and flame race Kenyan sand boas are the same thing. It's not true! If it's not from Tanzania, it's not a flame race, I don't care how pretty you think it is. I realize that I'm the only person who cares about this, but I really really care, so.... THERE! And you don't get off the hook calling it 'flame phase' either. I can't remember who I'm directing this to, but you know who you are.

Erin B.

Attached: an actual flame race KSB