To Jump or Not To Jump

[Dembinski Reptiles]

Pastel Jungle people

I will have to admit jumping in a tad late and didnt read this whole thread word for word. I actually agree with all parties to some extent. Is this really misrpresenting his animal by calling it a "pastel" ?? To me no. Why ? Everyone is getting all their pants bunched up over this. "Pastel Jungle" IS the term used to describe the desired co-dominant trait, not just "Pastel". So if you want to go and qoute a name thats established to a certain trait, then the whole word needs to be used, in my book. So, by him only calling it a Pastel doesnt mean he's saying its a "Pastel Jungle". Pastel Jungle was termed to descibe not only the color, BUT also the pattern. I believe Greg traded a pair of baby Albino Burms for the first Pastel Jungle. Once it was proven genetic, then the prices sky rocketed. Go to ALL the big breeders websites and see for yourself. All label them as "Pastel Jungles", "Super Pastel Jungles" and "Lemon Pastels".

OK let me give you a close example. Jeff Ronnie has a proven line of "Pastel Dreams". If someone gets in a import and calls it a "Pastel Dream" then I have a problem with it. If they just say Pastel Boa, its not referring to the "Pastel Dream" line in my book and only using the name to describe the color.

Now, back to "what if a novice didnt know any better ??" Well, if they are a novice, then chances are they wouldnt know what a "Pastel Jungle" is now would they ?? They would be buying the animal because of its color, not so much the name. So, how could they be mislead ?? If they are a novice and know of "Pastel Jungles" then they would know to at least ask if its the same co-dominant gene or have at least seen one to know the the snake being labled as a "Pastel" is not the samething. Another clue ?? If they are aware of genetics and terms used, they would have to know that a fresh import cannot be labled as a "Pastel Jungle" until proven out. IMO.

Bottomline. Do I think naming it a "Pastel" is wrong and is misleading in the wording ?? If you want to be techincial, then no. Would I call it a "Pastel" ?? NO. Why ?? For the very reason this thread has started.

Joe Dembinski

 

[Dembinski Reptiles]

BTW

Im getting in some imports as well. If I get a striped Ball Python, then can I call it a "Striped Ball Python" or will someone say that Im scamming someone because its not like Clarks proven strain ? I will tell you this I will be calling it a "Striped Ball Python" because it is. Im not calling it a "Genetic Stripe" which is the proper term when refering to Clarks strain. Thats why when you see Adam or others selling hets, they are calling it "Het. For Genetic Stripe". I agree dealers are getting out of hand with some of these names, but the public is also getting out of hand, with the naming as well. Just my 2 cents for the day.

 

[bpc]

Thank freakin' goodnees!

Glad I'm not totally in disagreement with everyone. I think Joe's example of the striped ball is great. Can it be called striped? Yes, it has a freaking stripe on it. Can I call mine pastel? Yes, it has a pastel phenotype.

Joe, assuming average price for a Jungle pastel (now that we have been reminded of the proper term - can't believe I forgot that) is around $1500. You think that the genotype is worth $1450 of that price. I disagree with that logic. I think people spend at least somewhat more of that money because of how the snake actually looks. What if someone wants to buy my snake simply based on looks and never wants to breed it. That is certainly how I would represent it. Does it's value then become more than that of the "average" ball python?

If not, then every single one of the snakes you've shown is not worth more than $50. It's the piece of paper that comes with it that makes it worth the other $1450. That's fine and I DO understand (or get it, as you like to say) that people spend money for genetics. You need to get that people also spend money based of looks and on the snake they actually get. I'll try for a couple of examples here. The albino anaconda that was in Reptiles several years back. It's estimated value was around $25k I believe, why not much more? Because, it was still a freaking anaconda. Up until last year I owed what I believe was the world's only true striped African rock python (not reverse stripe like the one's for sale on Kingsnake), an absolutely stunning animal. Problem was it was a rock python, an undesirable snake. I couldn't even get $400 for it. In fact, I couldn't even get a Tiger retic for it (value of about $325). Even if I had proved out the striping as genetic the snake's value would not have instantly become some astronomical number. People buy based on more than just genetics. You may not, but you are not the only person in the world buying ball pythons.

Looks do count, otherwise, why are red amazon tree boas worth so much more than green and brown ones? There is no evidence whatsoever that a red to red breeding produces red babies, but people still pay more of the red ones.

 

[The BoidSmith]

To most of those people, if they were to look at my snake and the one posted by Tom side by side they could not tell the difference. The genotype only matters if one plans to breed the snake. And if someone is as into balls as you and Tom and Alvaro sees my snake they will ask the questions you already have. When they do, they will get 100% honest answers from me.

What if they don't ask? What if they just heard or read about the pastels (or "pastel jungle") from a friend and think that buying that ball python for $500 is the deal of the century? Would you be comfortable with that?

I'm going back to my explanation of previous pages. In general people that buy ball pythons at high prices and with names recognized by the industry as morphs. They do so with the intention of, in a more or less distant future, breeding the animal and selling the offspring. The only problem is that once he breeds them back and wants to sell the offspring they are going to be worth $50 a piece tops.

The striped balls is a different issue. The animal is just sold for the looks. The fact is there were non-genetic striped animals for sale before the true genetic stripe appeared in the market.

Regards.

 

[bpc]

No, back-up. You're still assuming I'm trying to deceive people about the genotype of this animal. I would absolutely tell them this is by no means a pastel jungle (genotypically proven). It will be described as a nonproven phenotypic pastel. I just refuse to believe that genes are worth $1450 of the Jungle pastel price. I believe that my snake will sell quite easily for somewhere around $200, maybe more, if the color intensifies after a few sheds as it sometimes does.

One of you guys tackle that question I asked Seamus: How much was the founder Pastel Jungle worth before the genetics were proven? I don't think $50 is an honest answer.

 

[The BoidSmith]

No, back-up. You're still assuming I'm trying to deceive people about the genotype of this animal.

Brian,

Sorry if it came that way, I didn't mean it. That's the problem with e-mails. Any ways, even if you don't mean it the outcome will be similar.

I would absolutely tell them this is by no means a pastel jungle (genotypically proven). It will be described as a nonproven phenotypic pastel.

What if they don't ask?

I just refuse to believe that genes are worth $1450 of the Jungle pastel price.

You have your point there. But just remember that behind that price tag of $1450 there are years of breeding efforts. That price tag is offering the guarantee that once you breed this animal to a normal very likely half of the litter will resemble him/her in what is termed a co-dominant way of inheritance.

You don't believe in what genes are worth but, and I can believe that. Nevertheless you do believe that a nice looking baby ball python that came in a shipment from Africa (apologies in advance if it din't come from Africa) with a price tag of under $8 each is now worth $200 or maybe more? Don't you think there is more work, expenses, research and the like on the CB ball pythons that either of the big breeders sell?

 

[dwedeking]

We're selling something in which the "value" is based upon the individual who is buying's perception of value. Each customer is different, are they buying as a breeding investment, additon to a collection, or a pet? For a genetically proven snake the "correct price" is set at 3 different levels for the above person without a thing changing with the snake. For the investment breeder the genes add to the price, for the collector the markings and color set the value, for the pet owner it's a $50 snake no matter the gene make up.

If I sell a Nissan pick up truck and the driver does a 130 MPH down a curvy hill and wrecks it. Am I at fault for selling it a increased price because I labeled it "sporty" or "sports truck" (due to some fancy grill and light work)? Not a "true" sports vehicle (ie mustang, porcsche etc) that would have handled the curves correctly. Is it my fault the buyer did not research the true levels of the capability of the vehicle before pushing the extremes?

We usually take a display animal or two to shows we do. Just as eye candy and to draw the attention. Usually I've put signs on stating they are for just "display" but have been thinking of putting one our Nosy Be Chameleons for $1,000. Just to get the gossip started, not to actually drive a sale. Now normally a Nosy Be goes for around $250 and I would not expect anyone to pay a $1000 for a nosy be. If someone came up and offered to take him for that I would sell him. He's proven. He's 100% Nosy Be. Looks awesome. I don't think he's worth $1000 based on what you can pay others for a similiar animal, but if a customer is willing to pay then he's moving.

I agree completely with BPC. If your going to use a name (in any industry) to denote a genetic trait you need to be specific (pastel genotype, snakekeeper pastel, pastel jungle, etc). <sarcasm>Either that or everyone needs to stop selling "yellow" dragons because we have a "Scales Yellin' Yellow" and I'll get a number of breeders together to say they are "yellow" dragons making it an industry standard. </sarcasm>

 

[dwedeking]

The last sentence was a sarcastic joke but the forum removed my sarcasm tags I had put around it.

 

[sschind]

about the pictures

I do not have extensive knowledge of balls, I don't know if you would consider my knowledge above or below average. I certainly could pick out a piebald or an albino or a leucistic. I could probably even find the Axanthic one (lacking yellow right) I probably wouldn' know a clown if it bit me on the nose, and jungle is just another confusing adjective to me. Of all the pictures posted so far heres what I think.

If you lined all these snakes up and asked me to pick out the pastels, without telling me how many there were or that there may be other morphs besides normals and pastels. I would have picked the one that Seamus linked to, and I would have been wrong but that is a different morph so it really is kind of a curve thrown in there. In the one picture that Python dreams posts (with the 4 snakes) I would pick out the smaller one on the right side for sure, the bright yellow one. (I think that is the one in the single picture he posted first if I am not mistaken.) I can't really say that I would pick out any others from that group, and based on the second picture (which was supposed to make it more obvious) I probably wouldn't have picked any but that could have just been the picture. I think I picked the right one simply because he said there was one in there. I would also probably pick the bottom one in Brian's picture. What does all this mean? Nothing really to anyone else except me. Brian could use it I suppose to back up his argument and I wouldn't mind. I couldn't tell, or more accuratley to describe my situation thats what it looked like to me. Personally, in order of preference for which snake I would buy if they were all priced the same and I knew nothing of the genetics or morphs would be as follows

1. The one Seamus linked to
2. The bright yellow one Python dreams posted
3. The bottom one in Brians picture.
4. the top one in Brians picture
5. None of the other ones stand out to me.

I still think that Brian labeling his snake as a pastel is somewhat misleading simply because the term pastel has come to have an accepted meaning to many people. If I saw it on his table labled as a pastel at say $200.00, knowing that what others consider pastels and sell for much higher I would probably think he is trying to pull a scam. If If I saw it for $200.00 but it wasn't labeled as a pastel I might consider buying it simply because I liked the color, and if it were on a table with PythonDreams yellow one (which I assume would be labeled as a pastel and priced much higher than $200.00 I would buy Brians) I think that if someone likes the color of the snake they will buy it if the genetics are proven or not. This assumes that they do not want to breed it and produce their own pastels that fit everybody elses accepted deffinition, and that they can afford it. If it were me I would call it something else simply to avoid the confusion, and to avoid the danger of someone thinking I am misrepresenting an animal.

This is prcisely the reason that I can't get myself interested in balls (other than breeding normals) or corn snakes. Too much subjectivity involved. Thinking you may have one thing only to have your ballon busted by someone who thinks they are (and may be) more of an expert than you. Or having someone jack the price of their snakes up simply because they have something that looks different than the run of the mill normal and expects everyone else to go gaa gaa over it. I see ads for snakes all the time with price ranges listed (50.00 - 150.00 for example) the reason they give is it depends on the color. Thats fine, if they think something is worth more because it is a different color they can ask more for it but at least they are not saying "Oh thats $150.00 because its a pinstripe double super coffee latte morph, unproven of course. If it were proven it would be $1500.00" It is acceptable to think something is worth more simply because it is prettier than the rest. It doesn't have to have a label.

Steve Schindler

 

[sschind]

Sorry, I should have added this:

To PythonDreams my examples were meant in no way to slight your snakes. I am sure they are everything you say they are. Its just that I call them as I see them. If I were to see them in person I may have a different view.

Steve Schindler

 

[Seamus Haley]

I threw that link up just to show a ball python that would fit the dictionary definition of pastel, but not the industry definition.

Brian is basing his argument that it's accepteable to use the term on a few points...

That "Pastel" is nothing but an adjective and that the snake(s) in question "look pastel" to him based off the dictionary definition of the term... Take a look at that link, then take a look at his picyures. Knowing that an animal can have the subdued soft hues of Skip's animal... Does the term "Pastel" come to mind when looking at Brian's pictures?

That he will represent them as being non-genetically proven and thus is not being deceptive in his use of the term. However, as I believe my response in the above paragraph indicates, the animal does not coincidentally look Pastel according to dictionary definitions... But does bear a slight superficial (although not identical) resemblance to the genetic morph known as "Pastel"... So if there was no intent to draw sales based off the common use of the term in relation to ball pythons... Why even risk the possibility of confusion by using the term? Why not apply another term as a selling point and totally avoid the entire potential issue of misrepresentation?

That an animal's appearance is worth additional money... The only item I'll agree with. An animal's appearance can certainly increase it's price... but if Brian is confident that the appearance alone is worth his proposed price of $200, why does he need to apply a term that people will, to some degree or another, associate with something else?

 

[The BoidSmith]

Here is the info you requested

Brian,

Here is in a nutshell the Laura De Hart case:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/for...&perpage=10&highlight=silakowski&pagenumber=1

If you want to read the whole thing do a search under Brian Rogers.

The court awarded her $3,000 (the maximum) because she was sold normal ball pythons instead of heterozygous for albino.

Regards.

 

[bpc]

... but if Brian is confident that the appearance alone is worth his proposed price of $200, why does he need to apply a term that people will, to some degree or another, associate with something else?

Seamus, I see your point, but here is where I disagree with you. I don't think the "industry standard" for the term "pastel" is what you think it is. Further, I would be willing to bet the "public standard" is far less stringent than even what we've described so far. I think the general public will accept even the top snake in my picture as a "pastel" And on top of that, walk away having paid $200 for it and be happy with their purchase.

You are right about pastel being a "recognized term" though. So here's the experiment we do: we hand 25 or 50 people at a herp show a pencil and a paper and say, "Please give me the definition of a "pastel ball." Do you really think even half of those people will know about the whole genetic issue and write that into thier definition. Or do you think, as I do, that most of them will write something along the lines of: a light colored ball python. Maybe 10% might know something about the genetics, but not enough to exclude my snake. Many would have no idea what I was talking about, but would be able to come up with something because they would familiar with ball pythons and the term pastel.

The people who came up with the name "MOJAVE" to represent thier unique balls picked much more wisely than the guy who chose "pastel." Mojave is not an adjective, when they first started using it, it brought to mind no specific color, pattern, shade, size, etc. "Pastel" brings to mind a color or a shade immediately. I could say my wife has some purple pastel underwear and everyone would conjer up some idea as to what I was talking about. Now, if I said my wife has some purple Mojave underwear, most people are going to need some more description to have any idea what I am talking about. Either that or they might just think my sex life is really dry (like the desert). LOL

Yes, if we went to the BP forum and asked the question: describe a Pastel Jungle ball, we would get many many more people who could tell us exactly what you've said. But anyone who is that into ball pythons is NOT the general public. Further, if someone is willing to pay $1450 more for a snake because of it's genotype, then I think they have a responsibility to themselves to ask the right questions up front, and to know what those questions are.

 

[Python Dreams]

I have to agree that the actual term for the trait we are talking about is "Pastel Jungle" Ball Python. So even though "Pastel" Ball Python isnt actually the same name as the morph, it is used as the name sometimes and I feel it is very misleading to throw that term in and that is why I got my undies bunched up ;-). If you took all of the snakes in question to any of the known breeders, who we could say are experts in the feild, they would have no problem picking out pastels from light colored Ball's. Although a lot of people dont know what the standard is does not mean it does not exist. You definitely can get away labeling your animals as Pastel, but I find it very odd to do so. If thats what you want to do, I guess you will. Strange to me though...
Steve,
No problem at all. I posted that pic to show the differences of what Pastels can look like. Their also is an odd blushing snake in the middle that a guy tried to swear up and down that it was a Pastel as a little baby, and I ended up purchasing her as a normal (from a friend of his that knew what he was talking about) a year later. That snake is very beautiful (amazing), but I would be very upset if I didnt know better and had purchased her as a Pastel Jungle. The male Pastel is on the left side of the screen in the first shot. He is not the best looking Pastel and the photos dont help him out at all (make him look a little worse ;-) ). I take no offense to an opinion of my animals and I would always represent them correctly. That male (Pastel in photos) has already been sold in hopes to find me a male to match up in brightness with my female.
Anyway, I think you should try a little test Brian. Take pics and send them to some of the Big Ball Python Breeders or just bring them in person to your next Herp Show and tell them you purchased these snakes as Pastels and see what they say. Dont explain your dictionary definition strategy, just that you bought them as Pastels. Or maybe just pick one out of the millions of words available to describe them that does not have anything to do with a known trait. Just my opinion.
Thanks, Tom Baker

 

[bpc]

If you took all of the snakes in question to any of the known breeders, who we could say are experts in the feild, they would have no problem picking out pastels from light colored Ball's.

Tom, are you then saying it is impossible to import a jungle pastel ball from Africa? If so, where did the first one come from? I think this is the main problem I have with your argument. You have bought your way into some very expensive (and nice) ball pythons, and now you are convinced the only way for anyone to get thier hands on similar animals is to spend the type of money you did. That's nice, but these morhps do pop up in wild populations as well.

Does anyone have a baby "jungle pastel" w/ paperwork they could take a pic of to post? I would love to see just how much different one looks from my snake. No one as yet has challenged my snake on the phenotypic level. Tom, the way I interpret your arguement, the snakes could be dead on the same, and the only way the "big breeders" could tell the difference by looking at them would be because your's would be sitting on a piece of paper you paid $1450 dollars for.

 

[bpc]

Alvaro, I read that post. Don't really think we're talking about the same thing. Further, he wasn't even in the courtroom, so of course she won! All I managed to get from that was that she was sold a sick 50% het ball, is that right? No where near the same thing as using the adjective "pastel" to describe my animal.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Alvaro, I read that post. Don't really think we're talking about the same thing. Further, he wasn't even in the courtroom, so of course she won! All I managed to get from that was that she was sold a sick 50% het ball, is that right? No where near the same thing as using the adjective "pastel" to describe my animal.[/B]

Brian,

Maybe you missed my point. What I meant to say is that she took the people to court (true, they did not show up) and won the case even without needing to prove that two normal balls were not heterozygous.

Let us suppose you sell your python as pastel in $400 (you found a person crazy enough about his color). Later on, and visiting with a "Pastel Jungle" breeder he finds out it is nothing but a normal ball, whose color more than likely will change to maroon, in a beautiful display of a normal "feral-color" ball python. This person decides to sue you because misrepresentation (although you did not mean it!). The snake you sold as pastel is brought as exhibit A, and a "Pastel" (per-industry standards) is brought as exhibit B. An expert is called as a witness. How long do you think it will take to demonstrate they are different things, and that the term Pastel has been used for years to name snakes that look just like snake B, and that upon breeding half of the offspring will on average show this trait?

As with regards to the name "Pastel" and "Pastel Jungle", people call them Pastel's just as a shortcut and in the understanding that those that are into ball pythons will know they are referring to Pastel Jungles. What if someone has two normal ball pythons and he names them "Pieds" (you know, his family is originally from Piedmont, France ) ). He can later sell the offspring as 100% hetero for Pieds at $1000 and $2000 for males and females respectively. How many ads a day do you see that mention Pieds and we all understand they are referring to piebald balls?

Here is an ad posted this week selling "Pastels" (and believe me, they are pastels as per industry's standards) :

Pastels Popping Out!
Anaheim, CA
Posted by Camlon Reptiles (Contact Me!) on May 10, 2003 at 17:37:08

Click on thumbnails to view fullsize in a new window

Here they come our first clutch of the season, Pastels! It will be a few days before they are out, and we need to get them feeding but they are here, yeah! The second clutch is due in 2 weeks.

Any ways, it's your call. You want to call them pastels go ahead and do it.

Take care.

 

[Seamus Haley]

are you then saying it is impossible to import a jungle pastel ball from Africa?

Impossible and Improbable to the point of uselessness as an argument are slightly different things... But the end result is the same when it comes to the animals you have purchased and will resell.

You don't actually believe that your light colored animals are carrying the pastel genes, do you?

That you ended up getting these animals imported even after the trait has become desireable and expensive, just "Whoops, accidently threw in a $1500+ animal there. Oh well."

Your animals are genetically normal, light colored and I suppose slightly more desireable, but... You can give no assurances that they will stay light colored or produce lighter offspring or will even look like that after their next shed.

Have they even shed while in your care yet? Judging by the girth and comparative sizes of the heads, they're still tiny 'lil guys... Are they even feeding regularly?

That's nice, but these morhps do pop up in wild populations as well.

With what frequency? How many were imported over how many years to establish the captive bloodlines and prove out the genetics? Now how many ball pythons total were imported in that same time frame?

No one as yet has challenged my snake on the phenotypic level.

Tom did actually, saying that he saw obvious differences even in the picture.

Tom, the way I interpret your arguement, the snakes could be dead on the same, and the only way the "big breeders" could tell the difference by looking at them would be because your's would be sitting on a piece of paper you paid $1450 dollars for.

How did you get that from...

If you took all of the snakes in question to any of the known breeders, who we could say are experts in the feild, they would have no problem picking out pastels from light colored Ball's.

I think you should try a little test Brian. Take pics and send them to some of the Big Ball Python Breeders or just bring them in person to your next Herp Show and tell them you purchased these snakes as Pastels and see what they say. Dont explain your dictionary definition strategy, just that you bought them as Pastels.

Is it 'cause the way you interpret posts seems to be identical to the way you interpret the term "Pastel" by which I mean... all ####ed up and totally separate from reality?

It seemed pretty clear to me that he was saying that anyone who knew the morph could easily pick out actual pastels from the fresh imports that you decided you wanted $200 for. If I'm wrong, please correct me on that... but that's the way I read those statements.

 

[Python Dreams]

Brian,
I guess you havent read my posts to see that I have stated that Pastels do get brought in from the wild. I tried to tell you it has nothing to do with a peice of paperwork, because unless your talking about a receipt it is not needed. Paperwork comes with hets because they visibly do not display the trait you are looking for and you are relying on the breeder to be honest and put his name on the line that this animal does in fact carry certain genes. Pastels are obviously visibly a Pastel. Sometimes with pics some might have a hard time, but in person their is no question. For the last few weeks in fact their was a wild caught adult female Pastel being sold on Kingsnake. Their are other ways to get a Pastel im sure, but everyone down the line knows what a Pastel looks like from the people in Africa to the peoples hands it goes through on importation and it isnt impossible, but is probably a rarity to happen across a Pastel as a normal now days.
I do challenge and stand firm that none of those 3 snakes are Pastels or are near it. I'm not just saying that... Do you think that I wouldnt want to buy a Pastel to strengthen my breeding group for $200? Its just not going to happen. Even the ugliest of Pastels is still visibly a Pastel and would fetch $700 (maybe more). I challenge you again Brian. Take your snakes to the shows, or take some really nice individual shots in good light. Then bring them or send picks to people like the Snake Keeper, Graziani, VPI, NERD, Ralph Davis, etc... Those are just some of the big names, but you really can bring it to anyone who owns are is interested in Pastel Jungles and ask them. They will have no problem telling you that those snakes are not Pastels. Maybe their are quite a few people here that do not have as much interest in Ball Pythons as I do, but it is night and day. Pastels do not need paperwork because their trait is extremely visible to any Ball Python morph enthusiast. You could never once mention who you purchased it from or what the lineage is, and never show any receipt, and if it is a Pastel interested parties would know just by looking. I also am not saying that your snakes arent beautiful... Their is quite a variety of, and quite beautiful "normal" Ball Pythons.
Thanks, Tom Baker

 

[sschind]

Alvaro

I saw that ad, in fact I went into the BP classifieds the other day just to see if I could find more examples of pastels. From what I could see (only the heads out of the egg) I couldn't tell what they were. You say that they are pastels as per industry standards but that obviously because you have first hand knowledge of them (yours perhaps?) From the pictures I would challenge anyone to stake their reputation on the fact that they were in fact pastels as per industry standards. Its not a knock on you or the ad or the representation of the snakes, just that it doesn't add anything to this discussion.

Steve Schindler