To Jump or Not To Jump

[Dragondad]

As some of you know I enjoy a good healthy debate as much as the next guy. Sadly the issue of genetics and related terms is a debate that I would loose to my 7 year old daughter.

I will say this that to me Brians point is valid. If I am in the market for a snake, walking at a show and I see his snake for $200, and continue walking and see a similar snake for $75 regardless of the labels I would buy the one for 75. If I liked the one for 200 and didnt find another that I liked as well I would pay the price. If he can sell it for $200 without making any fraudulent claims to its genetics then I guess he can sell it for 200.

To the purest this might seem wrong but if I am willing to lay down 200 for a snake I should be able to do a little bit of comparison to be sure I am getting what I paid for.

Oh and Brian you probably could fit it all on the deli cup just print really small (kinda like a cheat sheet in college)(dont ask)and have a sign that reads beware of the fine print.

 

[bpc]

Here's that definition for everyone:

....phenotype in which patches of skin are unpigmented because of the lack of melanocytes.

Alvaro, good work on finding the part of speach. I had never heard the word used outside of genetic discussions. I looked it up in a dic. at school and guess what, same thing PLUS:

n. A piebald animal, esp. a horse. (figures- stupid mammals)

So, to me that term can be used to specify (denote) animals which are piebald. It HAS BEEN accepted in that manner. I don't think pastel (by itself) will make it. Guys, that is what we're talking about, acceptance. Yes, everyone who breeds high-end ball pythons understands what you mean when you say "pastel.' The general public does not. You guys SHOULD protect the term "Pastel Jungle." Pastel (by itself) is to broad, period. It is akin to calling piebalds "white."

Alvaro, you posted that link to Ralph Davis' site. That's great, who the hell is Ralph Davis? Now, yes I have heard of him since coming here to the BOI, but do you really think every person who walks into a herp show has his whole genetics primer memorized? I've never seen him, or if I have, I don't remember. I've never bought from him. So, it's not like he has the market on ball pythons cornered.

You can kick and scream, and stick your head in the sand, and even take your snakes and go home. But, if you continue to try and use this vague term to denote that very specific genotype, you will lose it. Think I'm wrong, look at the corn snake market. That market is only about 10 years older than yours. And there, even specific terms like Okeetee, and Creamsicle are useless, because not enough people (general public) really understand what they mean.

One more thing, I notice that several people now say they won't buy from me because of my views on this forum. Well, that's sad. Of course, I understand people get upset, when others don't agree with them. I do not post here to help bolster MY business. I post here to help bolster OUR business. I've been doing this (keeping, breeding and selling reptiles) for almost 13 years. I do about 20-30 shows per year, and teach Biology for a living. So, I think I'm qualified to comment of the industry. If you don't want to buy from me, fine, not all the students in my class want to graduate either, I've learned to live with that. But, at least listen to what others (including me) have to say and learn from that. I know I've learned a lot, just in this one thread, and even though I've butted heads bigtime with Tom, Seamus and Al, I have not crossed them off my list of people to buy from.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Brian,

No problem here either!

That's great, who the hell is Ralph Davis?

He is a highly recognized ball python breeder.

Regards.

 

[Python Dreams]

Brian,
I think their are a few reasons that people would not want to buy from you. You came to this forum talking about Pastels and how you have some and the only difference is you dont have papework (not needed when the trait is visible)... Then you posted pics and it was very clear to any Ball enthusiast that these were not Pastels (Pastel Jungle Ball Python). You wouldnt want to take my word for it or a few others and you did not want to contact anyone who is actually considered an expert in the feild (experts can come in handy if you would try and contact one). You then go off on tons of different arguments about why you need to use the word Pastel even though it has been shown to you time and time again that in the Ball Python industry it is accepted as the morph Pastel Jungle Ball Python. Or how yours might prove out, when even if it did, would still be considered a light normal. We havent even taken into fact the general darkening that will occur as the animal gets older. Weve shown you plenty of much more accomplished breeders then you or I use it. Still not good enough. Their is a certain amount of arrogance that comes with going against what is accepted. You've completely closed your eyes to any other option. You obviously have heard of Pastel and thought you had an understanding of it before this thread started, and no matter what happens or what you hear, you still want to use it. And the only reason is because it is considered as a desired trait. Why even leave it open for a possible mistake, or possibly be frowned upon from maybe the 1 in 20 people at the show that walk buy and say "Jeez, what a dork... Thats not a Pastel". I do think the term Pastelish, Pastel-Wannabe is acceptable as long as it is not followed by your speal about the genetics and maybe just maybe!!!!!!!!! What about proper locality? The general buyer has no idea where a certain species come from, but their are breeders who are very stern about locality of their breeding group. Since in general, the average buyer does not know or does not care, then you can label it from "Hypothetical Mountain" because your pretty sure thats where it came from and it doesnt really matter to the general public... Right? Even though in reality its dihonest. Would I buy from you? Yes, if you had something I wanted. I would really have to see it and sex it in person though. No possible hets either ;-).
Wes,
I take this personally because I have a love for snakes and I am very interested in Ball Pythons at the moment. Not to mention the money I have invested into them. I guess a little knowledge hurts some people. Their was discussion of what mutations are proven and if their is even any sort of order in the Ball community. I posted what are proven mutations to show what is actually available and what is in use. To try and clear up any confusion. Then again maybe I should climb off my high horse and start squirming in the mud with you down there and then I'll get where your coming from.
Thanks, Tom Baker

 

[Wilomn]

Hey Tom, plenty of room down here in the mud. Since I am not a club member your name is not familiar to me I am ignorant of your great stores of knowledge. Were we to meet in person I may well learn from you. I am not opposed to that. I am , however, opposed to someone with an holier than thou attitude preaching about how something is or is not to be percieved by me in particuar and the public at large in general. You may very well be right about that snake. Then again, until it breeds and we see the results, you might not.

Now if you want to send me that membership application and it's not too complicated I'll fill it out and get it back to you. I am not, as I stated earlier, opposed to gaining knowledge. I am somewhat opposed to having it shoved down my throat.

I think you guys came down way to hard on Brian. That's the thing that really got me going. Perhaps your methods of edumacation need some polishing.

Wes Pollock

 

[Python Dreams]

LMAO,
I'm really not sure what club you are referring, but I think it's the club of knowledge and we are all invited to join. I did not come up with any of this material and it can be found at about any website relating to Ball's.
I did get kinda bunched up because it really is kinda standard knowledge in the Ball industry and he refused to see it. I generally dont respond to posts, but this one got me going and since I believe this wouldve been the type of add the thread starter was referring it was kinda relevant. Anyways, got a jump back up on my horse and now im all dirty :-(. haha
Tom Baker

 

[bpc]

Then you posted pics and it was very clear to any Ball enthusiast that these were not Pastels (Pastel Jungle Ball Python).

Well, I'm glad to hear you've been elected chairman of the club. The whole base of your arguement has been that if I labeled this snake pastel I would be tricking someone into buying it based on an improper label. If it's so "very clear" that this snake is not a pastel, then no one would ever buy it correct? If it's so obvious then I couldn't trick anyone. Further, I have said time and time again, I would never call this snake a Pastel Jungle.

it has been shown to you time and time again that in the Ball Python industry it is accepted as the morph Pastel Jungle Ball Python.

I accept that title as much as you do. Just don't get lazy and use "pastel" and we'll be just fine.

You obviously have heard of Pastel

Well yes, I have. I've heard of the word pastel many times. My wife owns some pastel underwear, my kids have some pastel crayons, and I own several pastel boas. Doesn't mean when I call this snake pastel, or say it has a pastel tone to it, I'm trying to rip anyone off.

or possibly be frowned upon from maybe the 1 in 20 people at the show that walk buy and say "Jeez, what a dork...

Ya know what, personally, I think I'd rather deal with the other 19 out of those people anyway. At least when I get to know them, I won't have to worry about them drowning in a rainstorm.

The general buyer has no idea where a certain species come from,

Yeah Tom, THAT'S MY FREAKING POINT!!! They also have no idea what all these morphs you've posted mean either. And when you choose to be lazy and use a term that is as ubiquitous as pastel to name a high dollar morphs, you get even more confusion.

it really is kinda standard knowledge in the Ball industry and he refused to see it.

I just find this hilarious, how many balls have you sold this year Tom? I have sold over 200 already and I'm just getting started. I am part of your industry, and so is every other person out there buying, breeding, and selling ball pythons. For you to pontificate as to what is "standard knowledge" is frankly, laughable. As I've said, it may be standard knowledge to the handfull of people who have these specific animals (or even other high-end balls) but it is NOT standard knowledge or language in the Ball industry. You and your Brotherhood of the Ball make-up what, maybe 2% of what could be considered the "ball industry." The 90,000 imported ball pythons are what makes up the bulk of the industry. And the bulk of the customers are 15 year old kids begging thier parents to buy them one. Just because your snakes are expensive doesn't mean you control the industry. Just the same as Hummers don't control the SUV market. You thinking everyone who is into ball pythons knows exactly what your definition of a morph is, would be the same as thinking that every soccer mom (or dad for that matter) buying an SUV understands exactly how independant rear suspension, anti-lock brakes, and internal combustion engines work.l

 

[Python Dreams]

Keep talking.. I just told you why people might not want to buy from you. Whatever... So you also think it is ok to mislead on locality since the general public doesnt know?
You skip over what you want to hear and take bits and peices.. I did not make any of these names up, nor do I have any affect on what morphs are named or what is imported. I can just read and have respect for people who have accomplished alot with Ball Pythons. I have the ability to understand and dont need to mislead in anyway. I personally try and learn from experst, I do not try and undermine what they have done. Good luck with your business.
Tom Baker

 

[The BoidSmith]

Brian,

In MHO we owe a lot to people like the Barker's, Davis, The Sutherlands, etc. They have given more insight on the biology of reptiles (ball pythons included) that we could have ever learned from people involved in those massive imports of CH and WC animals.

Had we realized beforehand that you did not know who Ralph Davis was, this thread would have ended on page 1 or 2. When you started discussing Pastels, Pastels Jungles, and ball python genetics we assumed you were aware of the ball python mutations in today's market.

I have sold over 200 already and I'm just getting started.

Considering this statement of yours, my friendly advise would be to dig a little deeper on the genetics of this fascinating species. It will certainly pay-off in the medium to long run.

The 90,000 imported ball pythons are what makes up the bulk of the industry. And the bulk of the customers are 15 year old kids begging thier parents to buy them one.

Precisely! As you have stated earlier in this thread you are in education. In MHO you have chosen one of the most important careers. With it comes a lot of responsibility, as you are in charge to transmit the knowledge to future generations.

Take care.

 

[bpc]

So you also think it is ok to mislead on locality since the general public doesnt know?

Now you're starting to piss me off. I have never sought to decieve anyone, nor will I. The point that keeps flying right over your head is that the general public does not have the knowledge that the brotherhood of the ball does. And to them "pastel" (lower case p and w/o the word jungle behind it) is ANY light colored snake. And ya know what, it's still ok for them to own ball pythons.

Had we realized beforehand that you did not know who Ralph Davis was, this thread would have ended on page 1 or 2. When you started discussing Pastels, Pastels Jungles, and ball python genetics we assumed you were aware of the ball python mutations in today's market

Alvaro, I know of Ralph Davis, did when I came here. My point with that comment was more of a "so what." The general public does not know who Ralph Davis is. But, like I said, I've never bought form him, met him, or seen him, yet I've been dealing with balls for a long time. Further, the general public is not interested in ball pythons which cost thousands of dollars. Those who are, learn what the morphs are and go on from there. To the rest of us the word pastel (by itself) does not mean anything more than a light colored snake.

I just got an email from Jeff Ronne showing off his new "pearlesent boas." So I went to the forum to check them out. Right there, in the "Boa Forum," they are discussing the same topic, what is hypo, what is pastel, which is this. I found this coment which I just loved, thought I'd share it with you.

Yeah, pastels are genetic for the most part. If you got that from an average pet shop, chances are it's a normal. But the fact that it is indistinguishable from a pastel without any additional info on it, means you've got a beauty on your hands.

I think that answer is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Frankly, it's a little more of a knowledge level than I'd give to the general public. Of course I could be jaded because I do about 20 shows a year. "Indistinguishable," why? Because they're going by looks. That's all that matters to some people. If the genotype matters, if they are going to spend $1500, they will know what to look for, and what to ask. Further, if they already know they are looking for a true "Pastel Jungle" they are going to know that my nice looking $200 "pastelish" ball aint it. You all have my permission to punch me square in the nose if you see the terms Pastel Jungle used by me to describe this snake.

Considering this statement of yours, my friendly advise would be to dig a little deeper on the genetics of this fascinating species. It will certainly pay-off in the medium to long run.

Alvaro, I understand the genetics. I can do monohybrid, dihybrid, and even trihybrid crosses. I know all the terms and speak the language. The point is, these "morphs" yall keep throwing at me are great, some are recessive, some are what's called incomplete dominant (usually misnamed as co-dominate), but they are not common knowledge. And what I'm telling you is, if you keep using common, previously descriptive words like "pastel" to describe them you will continue to run into confusion. And you will eventually have an "industry" filled with terms that have no more meaning than okeetee, creamsicle, and "cool looking."

 

[The BoidSmith]

Yeah, pastels are genetic for the most part. If you got that from an average pet shop, chances are it's a normal. But the fact that it is indistinguishable from a pastel without any additional info on it, means you've got a beauty on your hands.

Brian,

I'm quoting your quote. What I have seen so far is that yes, there is confusion within some of the boa breeders/sellers as with regards what costitutes a pastel. You will see pastels advertised all over the board just because they have a pinkish (most definitely cryptic, and that will dissapear as they mature) coloration as young. You will see this particularly with B.c. occidentalis being sold as "high pink" animals (although not labeled as pastels). This confusion is not such among the "brotherhood of the ball" as you chose to name them, where years of research and trial and error has determined the mode of inheritance of that trait. In my opinion these breeders deserve a lot of respect, regardless of how much they charge for their animals. They have put time, money, and effort in trying to understand more about the biology of the species. They have gone beyond the simple buying and selling because of phenotypic characteristics but have asked the question why?, and they have answered.

Regards.

 

[bpc]

Alvaro, right! Now, that they've done all that, they need to protect it. How? By not getting lazy and using the word pastel to describe the Genetically proven Pastel Jungle morph.

In the boa world "pastel" does not equal "Pastel Dream as produced by Jeff Ronne."

Why would "pastel" get special protection over here in ball python world? Everytime one of these guys uses that term, (pastel, by itself), they degrade all the work they've done. I understand that you and Tom and Al and Ralph and probably a 1000 other people who are really into balls know what each other mean when you say "pastel." But that leaves the other 6 billion of us open to make our own definition. Stick to "Pastel Jungle," and then most everyone will realize it's something special. Pick something more obscure like Mojave, and there won't be any confusion at all.

 

[NEWReptiles]

I think you are one of very few people that see the term pastel the way you do.

But that leaves the other 6 billion of us open to make our own definition.

 

[bpc]

Great, keep thinking that way and see how long it lasts.

 

[The BoidSmith]

The point is, these "morphs" yall keep throwing at me are great, some are recessive, some are what's called incomplete dominant (usually misnamed as co-dominate), but they are not common knowledge. And what I'm telling you is, if you keep using common, previously descriptive words like "pastel" to describe them you will continue to run into confusion.

Brian,

When you said a while ago "who the hell is Ralph Davis" I understood you did not know him and that you were not aware of the different ball python morphs out there. That would certainly explain your use of the term "Pastel" indistinctly from Pastel Jungle. With the statement above you seem to know more about these morphs and their inheritance than most of us do.

With regards to the other statement:

Now, that they've done all that, they need to protect it.

Protect it? Protect it from who?

Regards.

 

[Boavoyage]

In my opinion:
pastel is an adjective - Pastel (or Jungle Pastel, Pastel Dream) is a proven line
piebald is an adjective - Piebald is a proven line
albinism is an adjective - Albino is a proven line
jungle is an adjective - Jungle is a proven line
motley is an adjective - Motley is a proven line

Your boa or ball python looks pastel doesn't mean it is a Pastel, Jungle Pastel, or Pastel Dream
Your boa has fine pattern doesn't mean it is a Fine Line
Your boa has weird pattern doesn't mean it is a Jungle
Your boa has motley looking doesn't mean it is a Motley

You must prove out if the gene is carried on to the offspring before you name it. Until then, you can just say that it has the pastel or motley or jungle look, but can't say that it's a Pastel, a Motley or a Jungle, a Fine Line, etc...

Using a known proven line name for your animal that you don't know if the genetic will be passed on the offspring is deceiving and ignorance
Telling everything is het for something without any proof is deceiving and ignorance
Telling that the buyer has to prove if an animal, which he bought as a het, is not a het is deceiving, ignorance, manipulated, and it is a good example of a not-responsible seller. Before the seller sells an animal as a het, he must be sure that the animal carries the gene of what he claimed the animal has.
Breeder spent time and money to prove out the genetic. Thus, they are entitle to set the price higher, just like an A.K.C. dog costs more than a same looking dog without paper.

 

[Boavoyage]

Now, that they've done all that, they need to protect it.

They don't need to protect it, because it is regconized by the community in this hobby. Only "newbie" can't tell the different.

 

[bpc]

John, so according to your logic. Just because an animal shows a specific phenotype it cannot be called by that phenotype. Is that correct?

Your boa has fine pattern doesn't mean it is a Fine Line

an example of what you wrote.

Alvaro, you need to protect it from exactly what happened here. Someone, me in this case, not knowing that a simple adjective (pastel) was being utilized by a select group of people to describe a very finite set of snakes. The more descriptive and selective the words you use to represent these morphs, the lower the chance that happens. I understand that all of you know exactly what each other is talking about. But, do you really think everyone does?

Guys, I think we could beat each other up one side and down the other over this. And I'm really not trying to work against you. Here's what I'm going to do. I'm the Secretary of the Central FL Herpetological Society. At our next meeting, I'm going to take in about 80 note cards (we have about 80 members at each meeting), pass them out, and ask the membership to write down thier definition of "pastel ball python." You have my word, that I won't coach them in any way. I'll simply ask them to give me thier definition. I think that way we have a good cross-section of the herp community. Then I'll pick up the cards and post the results.

 

[bpc]

Only "newbie" can't tell the different.

John, it's the "newbies" that buy our snakes.

Now go stick a probe up your snake's ass!

 

[The BoidSmith]

Alvaro, you need to protect it from exactly what happened here. Someone, me in this case, not knowing that a simple adjective (pastel) was being utilized by a select group of people to describe a very finite set of snakes.

Brian,

You demonstrated that your genetic knowledge of these animals is probably greater than most of us have. You even enlightened us on the difference of the terms co-dominance and incomplete dominance. Furthermore, you are Secretary of the Florida Herpetological Society (congrats BTW!), an honor that is probably not given to a newbie in the herp community. But yet you have never heard of a "pastel" ball python. If you say there is no reason for me not to believe you.

Regards.