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To sand or not to sand that is the question

Use sand or not

  • Sure let em' stuff their gullets no harm.

    Votes: 3 30.0%
  • An inch or less is ok

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • It's ok if you watch your gecko to make sure it does not eat it.

    Votes: 2 20.0%
  • WTF???? Are you nuts????

    Votes: 3 30.0%
  • Hey if a pre vet and a guy with a scary name that likes to hug teddys say it's ok then I'm with them

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Slate is my friend

    Votes: 2 20.0%

  • Total voters
    10
  • Poll closed .

beakgeek

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OK, after battling with pre vet girl and teddy bear hugging boy on KS I thought I'd post a question to people who have owned leopard geckos for more than a year.

Use sand or not to use sand????

Everything I have heard, read, etc. say is it bad.

What's your call??
 
LOL

I'm friendly with both of them, online. They're good intentioned. I haven't read any of the latest discussions, I avoid the sand debates these days.

I used to be a sand nazi.

Now, I use sand. I'm happy with sand. My animals are 'happy' with sand.
 
I use calcium carbonat just like sand for 8 years now with no bad results.A very good buddy used the same stuff i use for around 15 years with no bad results.The brand i use is FRE-FLOW made by Iowa limestone co i buy it at fleet farm $2.79 for a 50lb bag.
 
I'd appreciate it if you could not mock Nevin and I...I may not have been working with leos for very long...but I've done my research.
 
I may not have been working with leos for very long...
exactly, you lack experience




but I've done my research.
as far as i am concerned not much factual info is on the net about this. MOST info you find via internet AND books is incorrect or outdated. only a couple of resources online and no books with more than basic (alot incorrect too) info............. i would only go by a very few websites and only listen a handful of people regarding correct info about leos...........
and most of thise have no website or even post



ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, i knew i left KS for a reason............................... i hope this kinda stuff doesnt continue over here
 
I am free to mock. You throw pre vet around like it gives what you say more weight.

I am fed up with you. You started posting on KS questions like this:

Posted by: StinaUIUC at Tue Dec 30 12:16:47 2003 [ Email Message ]

I'm just curious if anyone has any experience with feeding their leos non-living food (pellet or canned dead like can 'o crickets or whatnot). Will they even eat it since it doesn't move?


Congrats on your new found interest, but please you are far from being an expert.

I am the first to admit I am new with Leopard Geckos, but I too was once pre vet(by the way you still have a few years to go before you can consider vet school), and it does not make me more of an expert than anyone else who is new to this.

Yes, some of the information you post is accurate, but you are inconsistant and have a long way to go.

Regards,

Terry
 
I've gotten the majority of my info from people who know what they're talking about...Bill DeFabio for one thing. I know there is a lot of misinformation out there...that's why talk to people who do have experience and use KS. I'm aware that that I lack experience, but usually know the difference between faulty and good information sources when I'm doing research. I may have some faulty information...but the sand info I got mostly from Bill and a couple other people on KS. I'm telling anyone they have to use sand...I just don't think it's as dangerous as some people think...if someone else thinks its too dangerous to risk that's fine, that's thier opinion. I want to get all the info out there for people brand new to leos that don't know. I just don't appreciate being mocked by someone behind my back
 
Just so you know...that question from kingsnake was posted in December...I didn't know anything then...since then I've been online basically every day (no joke) looking at leo stuff. and usually when I say that I'm prevet it has to do with having worked with vets before. And honestly...I think it does give me a little more "weight" since it means I'm actually studying animals in school and not just working with them as a hobby...
 
I'll come over there and mock if you like. You found this on a free open board that obviously you know about. Now you know how I feel. Have fun dispensing information on KS. I'll not being going back there anytime soon.

Regards,

Terry
 
whoops...sorry about all the posts!!!....I didn't really read that entire post by terry.... I may just be pre-vet...but I've wanted to be a vet at least since I was 3 (you can ask my parents)....I'm very serious about it and as of now I've got the grades to get into vet school.
 
Actually I never use this forum...I didn't even have an account until about 15 minutes ago when I posted...someone else told me you were over here mocking nevin and I
 
I used to use sand all the time untill i switched over to racks, if i still had 10 gallons and display cages, i would still use sand
 
And honestly...I think it does give me a little more "weight" since it means I'm actually studying animals in school and not just working with them as a hobby...

How many leopard geckos do you handle at school???

I know for a fact that there are people that are hobbyist that know a lot more than most pre vet, vet students, or vetrinarians.

That statement is absurd.
 
Terry I think you were absolutely wrong to have come here and use your personal issues with Christina as impetus to start this otherwise potentially fruitful discussion.

As I said, I used to be a sand nazi. Look up my older posts. I actually posted a bad guy thread on the BOI because someone incouraged the use of sand! Now I use sand in all my cages.

We were all inexperienced and passionate at one point. Leopard Geckos seem to make everyone a little crazy.

The fact is Terry, you have thrown insults and name dropped incorrectly as two of your sources use or have used sand for substrate with success over multiple generations. Where did this get us in this discussion?

If you personally have had negative experiences with sand, by all means contribute. Do not use experienced hobbyists and breeders to support your argument when they do not agree with your viewpoint. Do not direct insults at anyone.
 
I believe...

this would be the all too common brick wall I referred to in a previous post.

I will repost to here what I posted to the "other" forum regarding this same debate.

I have a feeling this will spawn huge debate, but I'm willing to take the gamble. This forum was established by the requests of myself and a few other "gecko forum" regulars, here at kingsnake.com back in 1999 I believe, that kept leos. Over the years, months, weeks, there have always been countless debates regarding substrates and which is best.

First I'll address Breathingbywires...

There's NOTHING wrong with using sand substrate. No one thing. Just so long as you use it in a safe manner. A sand or sandy soil substrate is naturalistic to leos. Their habitat is similar to that of some of our own eye-lid geckos here in the US; rocky with a sandy gravel based substrate. I've been keeping leos on a straight sand substrate since 1997 (got my first leo in Oct 96), when my first leo was old enough and large enough to be on it. I also feed strictly crickets. I've never had a problem with impaction. I have also kept my leos on a straight bed-a-beast substrate with no problems.

Now to address StinaUIUC some, but this also can apply to you Breathingbywires. With the above paragraph in mind, leopard geckos and most other eye-lid geckos are fossorial by nature. Meaning they live under rocks or in borrows underground. In the case of our native banded gecko species, one can usually and extremely easily find them under flat surface rocks 1-2 days after a good rainstorm. When they are not "surface" active (under rocks at least) they are generally in borrows where the relative humidity could be as high as 100%! Leopard geckos fill this same niche within their native lands. So, no, high humidity plus leopard geckos is not necessarily bad.

And as for InsideOutsider13 comment, "You should not use coconut husk for leopard geckos because it is ingestible and is meant to capture moisture for humidity." Young leopard geckos need a cage with higher moisture levels. Their skin is much thinner and they are much smaller than their adult counterparts. Thus making dehydration a very serious concern for such a small animal, regardless if they are a desert/semi-arid species that is adapted to this.

I like StinaUIUC's quote, "-ignorance is not to be punished when one is trying to gain knowledge...what scares me is the vast number of people who, when given the information to gain knowledge, choose to ignore it." The only concrete 100% best way to keep animals is the way Mother Nature does. All we try to do by keeping animals is either replicate their native environments as closely as possible or come up with "lazy" alternatives to housing them (newspaper, paper towel, linoleum, or slate substrate). It's not a matter of ignoring the information given, but rather not gathering enough varied, reliable sources of information, reading them, and digesting them, and then manipulating them to a means that works for you and the animal (the animal more so). That's what I had to do before I got my first leo in 1996. All there was on them back then was REPTILES magazine, and a few misleading or misinformed books. There was no leopard gecko manual (at least not until 1998). Everyone should be so fortunate to have the internet now and to have every an all caresheets on leoaprd geckos or other animals available at their fingertips. Many of us older keepers (not going to use old-time keepers since I'm only 22, but I have been keeping reptiles and amphibians since I can remember) could only have been so fortunate. What you see now in books is the hard work of years and decades of dedicated animal lovers and breeders sharing what works for them, a few friends, or other peers whom shared their experiences. And just because someone reads a book, keeps X amount of animals, or writes a book, doesn't necessarily make them and almighty expert.

Chris

I have been keeping leos on sand since 1997. Both play sand and local sand which was extensively washed, etc. I have also kept other animals on sand: collared lizards, bearded dragons, chuckwallas, desert iguanas, alligator lizards, banded geckos, ackies, skinks, hognose snakes, some native New Mexican snake species (rock rattlers, trans pecos rat snakes, AZ mnt. kingsnakes, etc.), side winders, the list is continuous. I will admit, I keep my gecko colony on paper towels, especially hatchlings. The ONLY reason why I currently don't use sand in my caging is because my rack systems can't handle the weight. A problem I plan to address.

Animals don't naturally go about eating mouthfuls of sand. Most problems occur when an animal is underfed or under-supplemented and they begin eating sand in an attempt to replace minerals their bodies are lacking. Sure a gecko or other sand dwelling animal may eat some in the attempt to snag some food, but usually they spit it out. If you want a safe substrate you can house your animals substrateless like Tremper, as paper towels could pose a problem if the gecko decides it wants to tear off a corner and consume it. Hell, I made a phone call to a certain breeder this morning. They were telling me about how they lost a leo gecko because the animal choked on its own shed skin.

As an animal keeper it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to monitor your animals and make sure problems don't arise. Freak accidents do happen and they are an unfortunate situation, but they do arise out in the wilds as well. I know I don't think I'd be too crazy about spending my life on a slab of 'concrete' (slate).

Chris
 
Honestly I haven't handled any at school...however that doesn't mean nothing I learn is relevant...and I'm totally aware that there are a lot of hobbyist that know more than most pre-vets, vet students, and vets.......aren't I constantly saying that a lot of vets give faulty info?...that doesn't mean all of them do though...most vets dont' work with reptiles...I probably will....and I do try to relate things I learn at school to them by researching elsewhere.
 
Christina

I owe you and Nevin an apology. It would have been better to address this in another way. *here is my crow* I'll eat it - pass the ketchup.

I had a bad day, not an excuse I know, but it took E2MacPets to remind me - l life is too short and I have geckos to feed.

I'll plan on playing nice and keep the conversation on geckos.

Sorry for the intrusion folks.

Regards,

Terry
 
For what it's worth thank you for the apology...I'm sorry I've sort of been freaking out here...lol I've been *cough*pms'ing*cough* lol and I get extremely defensive and kinda get all over the place...besides the fact that I'm really stressed out with school...
 
ummmm...

Christina, the "Great Substrate Debate" has been going on for at least the 10 years I have been raising/breeding leopard geckos, and I honestly believe it will NEVER be agreed upon or otherwise resolved. So why are you continuing to make it your issue on this Forum? I didn't participate in your POLL because I didn't see the right answer! LOL! Heck, I can't speak for everyone else, but I come to Fauna to ESCAPE the continuing saga of "is sand OK to use" arguments over on KS!!!
 
I didn't start this thread...I only came here to defend myself because I was being mocked behind my back...I've never even used this forum before, and even if I did use it regularly I wouldn't purposely start a sand debate.
 
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