Todd Smith (Deal Gone South)

[East TN Reptile]

The main thing here is to hopefully get the seller to do the right thing and give Greg a refund. Greg is intitled to a refund!
And to Wes, yes sir I can be civil....and want to be. Notice in my post, I never mentiond you taking foriegn objects and inserting them internally
Todd, do the right thing man. Make amends & give a refund to Greg. In return, not only will it make you a better person,but give you a better business reputation There's no way Greg would pull a fast one. Dave Derrick

 

[kim felts]

his last email to you is rather shocking.
i dont see how a person can offer a refund of sorts and then retract based on greg seeking the advice of others.
where in his offer did it state greg was not to seek assistance of his peers or speak of the issue to anyone privately or publicly?
ie a gag order..??
todd states that he feels he supported the genetics by his personal assurance that the genetics were verifyable.
by industry standards that is not satisfactory.
unless agreed upon prior..MY OPINION in this matter is i would have expected verifiable paperwork from the original breeder of the animal unless i agreed that his assurance (todd's) was good enough in writing prior to sending out the money to him..
is that what happened?
second..
the animal was shipped in good condition per todd's opinion.
was it stated prior to completing the deal that the animal was in good condition for a snake that had been breeding for months or was it simply in good condition period.

was greg aware that this animal had been working his skinny self to death prior to this sale?

in regards to the offer is retracted ...somehow i dont think judge judy would be satisfied with the power trip that seems to have evolved in that email..again..where does he state that in order to receive a refund you must not speak to anyone in regards to your opinion publicly or privately????
i dont remember reading any conditions mentioning these terms.

personally i see the same type of behaviour being used all the way through this deal.
he seems to feel his thoughts and opinions are more valid then anyone elses and therefore justify his actions.
regardless of what is norm for the industry or anyone elses opinion..and thats that..period..finito..end of story.
take it or leave it.

ill state my opinion on this thinking again..
shocking and not condusive to me wanting to send my hard earned cash to this person..

 

[kim felts]

btw..its early here in calif..forgive the typos ..
my coffee is still working its way to my fingers.

 

[bpc]

Clear evidence that Flagyl IS used as an appetite stimulant

Dave, I did a Google search on the topic of Flagyl as an appetite stimulant and got 267 hits. Including a site called "Doctor Gecko" and an "ask the vet" column where someone had written in about a nonfeeding boid. The column was author by a Dr. Meakin. He wrote the following:

Make certain a vet examines him for pneumonia and mouthrot first. If all is OK, he may try to stimulate his appetite with an oral dose of flagyl and an injection of B-vitamins.

So clearly, there is evidence that Flagyl can be used as an appetite stimulant in REPTILES. I believe your NDR book is wriiten about the efects drugs have in HUMANS is it not? And I'm also certain that someone such as yourself who "has been to medical school"knows that even in humans drugs sometimes have differing effects. Such as the differences sometimes seen between children and adults with the drug Benadryll.

You also called me "iNmature" for saying Greg should not have trusted someone he didn't know. Well iMmature (I think that's what you meant) or not, I guess I was right huh. If it was safe to trust people to send exactly what they described we wouldn't need a site like this now would we?

The sooner people realize there is NO set definition for the term "healthy" and that one MUST discuss EVERYTHING upfront before the transaction, the sooner we will stop seeing situation like this one. I don't know either the buyer or the seller here. But, I tend not to jump onto the buyers side right away simply because he was the first one to post. Here's how this looks from the sellers point of view:

He agrees to a price and a shipping method and sends his animals across the country.

He is told the animals arrived alive and in "good condition." Which according to his email (the only facts we have from his side of the fence) was all he guaranteed.

Several days later, through no fault of his own, he is notified that now the buyer is no longer happy with one of the animals. And it is now exhibiting signs of a nuerological disorder. Further the buyer wants to send it back across the county and then get all his money back.

He addresses the concerns of the buyer and offers some suggestions as why the problem MAY HAVE occured and what to do to fix it. I capitalized "may have" because you all, and just about everyone else always assume that the buyer is telling the 100% God's honest truth, when in fact, maybe they just aren't real happy with the color of the snake, or maybe their transmission just blew-up and they need that $1000 back. Greg, I in no way mean you are doing this, I'm just trying to make a point.

In this case the seller even offered to take the snake back, fix the problem (feeding) and then return it to the seller. When that wasn't good enough he offered to refund the purchase price minus 25%. Now that may seem a bit much, but Greg should have discussed all that BEFORE he mailed off $1450. I know I would have.

As I said before, a lot of the $1000 Greg spent on this animal (it's just a boa) was for the genetics (DH). In this industry, if you are going to sell something as a DH and charge the market price for the animal, those genetics must be verifiable. "Because I said so," might work for Bob Clark and Rich Zuchowski but not for this guy in this case. Greg needs to address the health issue on his own because he did not cover his a$$ up front, but the genetics and the proof thereof must be provided by the seller. If he cannot provide the paperwork he promised, then he needs to refund Greg's money.

 

[napavalleysnakes]

My Thoughts....

I've known Todd Smith for several years now. He lives just a hop and a skip away from me in a nearby town. In my dealings with Todd, he has always represented his animals fairly and I've been happy with every transaction we've had.
I've also done quite a few Herp shows that Todd has been a part of, and to be quite honest, his animals he's had on display have been pretty awesome and definitely well cared for.
I can vouche for the quality of his animals he produces

Greg also has an excellent reputation IMO. He has managed to keep a level head though-out this ordeal and has not resorted to the name-calling that so frequently occurs when a couple of individuals get ticked with one another. Honestly, I wouldn't hesitate to do business with either individual (Greg or Todd).

In my opinion, this is a deal that can be remedied. Todd is an easy guy to work with, but you can't blame him for being a little shocked when he was directed to this thread.

With a little cooling off on both sides, there's a great chance Greg and Todd will be able to come to a compromise that suits them both.

I'll echo the sentiments of Rick Staub, in that both the parties involved in this dispute are pretty good guys In an industry that has its share of crooks and con artists, I'd hate to see either Greg or Todd having their name drug through the mud..

Just my two cents,

Stephen Emerick
Napa Valley Snakes

 

[East TN Reptile]

bcp...... I stated it was inmature for you calling Greg "stupid" for trusting someone. Dave Derrick

 

[bpc]

Those are your words not mine. I said it would be "crazy" to spend $1000 on an animal he had nerver seen.

 

[aspidites1]

TN nurses must be hot-headed

Deleted - violation of FULL NAME rule.

 

[John Albrecht]

There is no way that every possible contingency can be thought out and put in writing beforehand when making a herp deal. Ultimately, the business side of this hobby relies heavily on trust which implies that all involved will work to the best of their ability to resolve conflicts fairly and amicably. It is easy to label a seller a "good guy" when all is going as the seller planned and they are not faced with having to prove their intentions when the plan goes askew. We now have a situation where the seller has to "prove" that they are a good guy and not just resting on the fact that business has gone according to their plan thus far. As far as I can tell there isn't anybody that thinks it is ok for a buyer to not be able to return their merchandise if they are unhappy with it for any reason at all, especially when we are talking large sums of money. Maybe this is the first time the seller has been faced with so much attention being placed on them regarding just one deal and they overreacted. Hopefully, those of you that know them and seem to have confidence in them can persuade him to reexamine his position.

Regarding flagyl, I have used it a few times also and just assumed that if it helped with appetite that my animals had parasites I didn't know about. I can't imagine that it actually would help to stimulate appetite as a direct result of usage. I think the nurse dude is probably right and all the other evidence is just antecdotal (spellign?). I wouldn't mind seeing a seperate in-depth thread on flagyl in the discussions area

 

[bpc]

John, of course one can't be expected to have discussed everything. But, I would think one might discuss something along the lines of "what happens if I get the animal and I'm not happy with it?" or "what if the animal won't feed?" Also, I think it is unfair for sellers to be expected to take any animal back, for any reason, at any time. Returns are something that must be discussed up front, period. A time frame must be established.

Suppose the seller in this case doesn't know the buyer from Adam. The buyer reports to him that the animals arrived in "good condition," then several days or a week later the buyer calls back and says, "I was out of town for a few days and now that snake is stargazing and won't eat, so I want my money back." The problem behavior could be the result of anything from an infection to a thermostat malfuction while the seller was out of town.

Greg has never said that John (I think that was the seller's name) gave him an extended warranty on the animals. According to the posted email the only thing the seller agreed to was "arrival in good condition." And according to the same email Greg reported them arriving as such.

Again, I'll bite on the unproven genetics issue, but not on health.

 

[bpc]

Oppps forgot something, Flagyll works to kill parasites infecting the digestive tract. If an animal has poor digestive health, it stands to reason that it will have a reduced appetite. Improving the animal's digestive health should then improve it's appetite. Yes, the actually pathway of flagyl may not be to stimulate the hunger centers of the brain, but one way or the other it is clear it has shown signs of improving appetite.

 

[John Albrecht]

but only if the animal actually had parasites.

 

[Greg Riso]

Simply Said...

At issue here is I was sold an animal that I was told was healthy and feeding on f/t rats and it won't eat no matter what. My first attempt at feeding this animal was not until the day after it arrived. I left for several days and upon returning again attempted feeding. It has now been two weeks since this animal arrived and it still hasn't fed after many attempts.
Can anyone here look at an animal right out of the box and predict an eating disorder? I don't think so.
Does anyone here consider a skinny nonfeeding animal healthy? I don't think so.
Does anyone here buy a thousand dollar animal said to be het for whatever from someone and be satisfied not having appropriate paperwork?
I don't think so.
If there's anyone out there that wishes to buy a $1,000 thin, nonfeeding hypo het for anery with no paperwork then boy have I got the perfect animal for you.
I'll guarantee it as being healthy, feeding on f/t rats, and I'll even e-mail you a piece of paper with no picture stating it really is a het, honest.
One more thing, can you say MISREPRESENTATION? Thought you could. I think it's appalling that a so called "good guy" won't stand behind what he sells 100% and to me that's the bottom line here. If Todd wants to make things right there's no reason why he still can't do so. I'm ready and willing if he is. That is the character of good guy in my book.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Dave;

Incorrect info on medication..................... Trust me,nothing personal to the guy that posted bout the medication, But he is wrong And for the love of Pete.please do not reply back stating otherwise. I've been to med school & work as a trained, licensed nurse. Maybe you were just informed wrong. I only wrote about it before someone tried it to stimulate appetite.............. it does the opposite.

Other have already posted what they have found with regards to the use of Flagyl. Let me rephrase this so you understand where I was coming from. Although Flagyl will not act as an appetite stimulant "per se" (it will not have this effect in a parasite free animal) it can stimulate appetite in animal that was off-feed due to previous regurgitation as a result of infestation with protoza.

Metronidazole/ Flagyl- ( A dirct-acting trichomonacide & amebicide that works as both intestinal & extraininal) translation.it kills parasites....

You are absolutely right. That is it's use, and it's precisely why there are claims that it might act indirectly as an appetite stimulant.

Regards.

 

[aspidites1]

Greg - make up your mind

Deleted - violation of FULL NAME rule.

 

[smart_ask]

Did the snake come with a feed/shed/defeciation record? With it you should be able to tell where the snake is and where it could be headed.

I didn't know there was a "one problem limit rule". Seems like one problem or 20, they still are problems and need to be addressed.

Respectfully,

 

[Boavoyage]

For aspidites1 a.k.a. Glenn

For aspidites1 a.k.a. Glenn
What is your full name?

All anyone EVER has is the seller's word for what he has. It all comes down to trust. The only way that you could really know is if the animal came from a large, well-known breeder and was microchipped. It is YOUR fault if you didn't get the 'proof' which you felt you needed BEFORE you sent your money or had the animals shipped to you.

You are too contradict to yourself
Yes, it all comes down to trust - and that's why we takes the seller's word - and that's why we send the money before we get the proof or animals - and the reason a breeder becomes well-known is that he keeps his words. So how the hell it becomes THE BUYER'S fault when he trust the seller?

apparently you haven't been able to get this through your head.

Perhaps, you are the one that unable to get the FULL NAME RULE through your head before you start posting to defend someone

I have purchased animals which haven't fed for me for over 6 months

How was your animal described? Healthy, feeding like a champ? Or skinny, need TLC?

 

[MSL]

Glenn

If you indeed would pay $1,000 for an animal and be content to wait 6 months for it to feed then you are a much better(?) person than I. I might be content to wait longer than two weeks if reassured by the seller that if in fact the animal doesn't eat in a reasonable and agreed upon (by both parties) time I may return it to the seller for a FULL refund. But this would depend on the condition of the animal as well as my level of trust in the seller.

I guess I've worked in Retail to long but whatever happened to if you are not in happy with something for whatever reason in a reasonable time frame you are permitted to return it? I don't believe upon receipt is a reasonable time frame. Especially since many reps, including my favorite boas, can actually change color from shipping stress and not even look like the animal you thought you had purchased until a day or two later. Also I would NEVER attempt to feed an animal the same day it arrived, I'd be to worried about regurge. I can understand the buyer having to pay return shipping if no issue other than buyers remorse is the reason, but $250.00 is a bit much don't you think, even for buyers remorse?

I'm sure it must be very frustrating to a seller that an animal be returned for reasons that he/she feels are inadequate but that is the risk and responsibility you assume when selling to the public if you wish to keep a good reputation. I myself would never purchase an animals unless it could be returned by me within 48 hours for ANY reason. Also I would expect that the animal would be guaranteed to feed for me and that I could at MY discretion return the animal if it failed to do so. Perhaps I'm naive about buyers taking advantage of sellers and sending back animals with no issues other than buyers remorse, but if this was the norm than how do the 'big' guys stay in business? I've purchased from 'big' guys and 'little' guys always by these terms and they've not had a problem with them or me...I've yet to return an animal I've purchased.

I think you're asking way to much from the buyer on this one.

Just my opinion.
Meryl Lechner

 

[Rainbowboaman]

Greg,
we are almost at 1200 views to this post. If Todd wants to sell another reptile it would be in his best interests to make this right. Aspidites1 aka Glenn?????? Since you won't post Last name we'll just use Smith just as an Alias for you. welcome to the BOI. It's interesting you have been into reptiles for at least six months (I gather this from you stating you have purchased snakes that haven't eaten for 6 month, by chance was one of these a '00 male hypo DH ghost). You just joined today & out of all the threads on here you chose this one to spread your wisdom of snakes & in the field of medicine. You have two post on this thread trying to discredit people which isn't working. You already have 1 warning for no full & last name on this post, yet you still broke the rules again on second post. I take it your just here for this thread & not in it for the long hull. Your posts almost sound like your here to defend Todd. Do you know him? as you really seem to be putting alot of time into making it look like what he did was right.

 

[aspidites1]

let's deflect the issue again, shall we?

Deleted - violation of FULL NAME rule.

I'll bet doing all that typing for nothing irks YOU, now doesn't it?

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