Todd Smith (Deal Gone South)

[East TN Reptile]

Greg, Have you heard any new news? I'm really hoping that Todd will see the light & give you a refund.
Alvero (sorry for my spelling) I see what your say bout the Med. I agree. I just didn't want anyone to think, "my snake don't eat" "I'll give it Flagyl and it'll be hungry" Thats why I went into great lenght with my post. Medication is sometimes the best defense...........used wrong, it's somtimes more deadly than the current condition
Greg........hang in there. Has Todd contacted you lately? I truely hate to see this happen to you. Like I said in my 1st post on this matter." Greg Riso is the most honest person I've ever done business with & goes out of his way to please his customers"
Todd Hey man, do the right thing. If ya go posting more animals for sale...you'll be remembered as "that guy" that ripped off somebody" Make things right. Not only will Greg be happy, it could really help your Rep & you might be surprised to find out it'll make you feel better inside & make you a better person. Todd, you wouldn't want to be done this way.....no one would. Trust me, if your gonna sell reptiles.........you need a good Repuatation and people whom you can use as References. Once people get to know you, find out your animals are 100% & well represented......the sky is the limit!
If Greg post a snake (for example) I know, even before seeing the animal, that's it's healthy, eating,no mites...........ect. I know this by just seeing his name. Todd,think about my words please
Dave Derrick

 

[Greg Riso]

Haven't Heard Anything

Dave,

No, I haven't heard a word and I'm not surprised. Standing behind your animals and character are traits found in a good guy. The bad guys usually chose to shoot themselves in the foot. I invited Todd to post here days ago yet he has remained anonymous. Kind of makes you wonder why.

 

[bpc]

Must be nice to live in "REPTOPIA"

The point I'm trying to make is Greg should have covered all this before he sent $1450. Just because Greg is a good guy, doesn't mean everyone he deals with is. And just because Todd (the seller) is now upset about all this and doesn't want to take back an animal he only gauranteed to "arrive alive and in good condition" doesn't make him a bad guy. I believe it is the buyer responsiblity to make sure all the details of returns, dissatisfaction, health, gaurantees, etc. are in place BEFORE the sale. You ask about that stuff when you buy a car or a freezer so why do so many people just assume there are gaurantees in place for every animal you buy.

Todd has set a policy and from Greg's posts it looks to me like he was aware of the policy and then choose to send out $1450 anyway. Now Greg has a problem that isn't covered BY the policy. It's covered IN the policy "arrive alive and in good condition," and from what I can tell Greg told Todd they did. The buyer CANNOT make the seller's policy after the fact. I don't think Greg is even arguing that Todd gave him a feeding guarantee. Don't assume anything folks, cover your A$$.

Greg was promised documentation of the genetics, he has not recieved that. Therefor he is entitled to a refund based on that if Todd cannot provide it. IF, BIG IF, Todd did promise/guarantee feeding and give an amount of time that the animal should be allowed to adjust, then Greg has something to go on. But remember, Todd did offer to take the animal back, get it feeding, and then return it to Greg. Greg decided he didn't like that plan and would rather just return it. Try returning a puppy to Petland and see how much they charge you, I bet it's real close to $250. Think about it folks, you pack up a "healthy" animal ship it cross country, buyer recieves it, says "it's in good condition," then calls you back a week later and says "I think it has IBD, so you need to take it back and give me all my money back." Not a fun situation.

Someone mentioned the "BIG GUYS" and how they do it. That's real simple, they charge you for it. I'm looking at Bob Clark's site right now. He wants $500 for a pair of het albino boas, I can buy those snakes for $100 each here in FL. He wants $200 for albino burms-I pay $125, he wants $100 for het albino burms- I get those for $35. But, Bob guarantees everything so I get what I pay for right. If I buy an albino burm from BOB and everything goes great, he doesn't refund that extra $75 bucks I paid him for the snake. He keeps it, and that extra money covers his A$$ when he does have a problem. It is extremely difficult to charge Bob Clark prices when you aren't Bob Clark, so the little guy can't cover his A$$ as well.

The truth is, I think Greg should have returned the animal when he had the chance. Instead, he came here and tried to change someone else's policy. I still think Todd owes him the proof of genetics or a refund, but Greg's assumption of his definition of healthy doesn't make Todd a bad guy.

 

[MSL]

Brian

Actually in my post I said that I've purchased from both 'big' and 'little' guys by these terms with no problems (fact is I've dealt with more 'little' guys). Recently I purchased a boa from Kim Felts at a price that was WAY below 'Bob Clark' prices. I paid less than what Kim did when she bought the animal at below 'Bob Clark' prices. When the snake arrived I casually mentioned that she was a bit darker than I had expected and I assumed it was due to shipping stress. I added that I was hopeful she'd lighten up some in the future. Kim's reply was to offer a full refund and even to pay return shipping herself. Mind you I never intended to return the snake and yes she has lightened up as I hoped and expected, but I was extremely pleased by the offer...this is the type of seller that I prefer to purchase from. I may be wrong but I've always assumed that many of the 'big' guys got that way by placing a great deal of emphasis on customer satisfaction.

You mentioned that Greg was never provided the guaranteed documentation of proven genetics and so deserves a full refund. But Greg was also told the snake was feeding on F/T. A thin non feeding animal arrives isn't this an inconsistency as well? Why didn't the seller state that the male was thin from breeding, may still be in breeding mode upon arrival and therefore may not feed for some while? Wouldn't this have enabled the buyer to make an informed decision as to whether or not he should purchase the animal? Of course all of this could have been avoided if Greg had asked what the policy would be in the event the snake did not feed. As you've said these things should be discussed beforehand and not after there is a problem.

I still stand by what I said though. I believe that sellers should back their animals with a full satisfaction/feeding guarantee. If enough buyers were willing to boycott sellers with less then desirable policies in these regards sellers with guarantees lacking would be either forced to change their policy or get out of the business. I for one would be all for it.

And yes "REPTOPIA" is a great place to be ... at least I've yet to get burned with an animal purchase.

Meryl Lechner

 

[Greg Riso]

Reptopia Spoken Here

Meryl,
I appreciate your post and agree with you 100% about Kim. I can guarantee she and others like her will go far in this business, rightfully and deservedly so. There are many more reptile breeders and enthusiasts like her who'll stand behind their animals with complete honesty and integrity. These people certainly are what make me enjoy the reptile trade. If everyone were like this there would be no need for this BOI. Who says there can't be a Reptopia if everyone would straighten out their act and treat others as they themselves would like to be treated.
A few weeks ago a prospective buyer asked me about my guarantee at which point I responded with the following letter. Please refer to the link:
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16234
This is not something I could have conjured up. This is an actual letter that I sent Michael BEFORE this incident with Todd ever occured. Notice the difference between my attitude towards a concerned buyer vs. the way Todd handled me. Maybe he should take some lessons on customer service and look up the meaning of the word integrity while he's at it. Reptopia can be attained with the elimination of members of the anti-reptopia. Sooner or later through their own actions they'll be weeded out.

 

[kim felts]

thank you meryl and greg for your kind words..it makes my heart soar to read your posts .

greg im sorry to see that this situation hasent resolved itself in any sort of satisfactory way. i suppose its time to move on and do whats necessary ourselves to bring a more satisfactory conclusion since todd has no intentions of working with greg anymore at this point.

do you know who todd purchased the snake from originally?
perhaps if the chain of custody can be traced back to the original buyer this person could request a duplicate receipt of genetics..
is something along these lines possible do we suppose?

if todd refuses to return the snake maybe he could at least supply greg more information to get what he needs and should have had in the first place..
satisfactory paperwork.

kim

 

[bpc]

Meryl, I think we're on the same wavelength. I just get tired of everything always being the sellers fault. Greg is obviously a good guy. And it sounds like he got a bum snake. But, if he has the ability to write a guarantee like that, then he also should know enough to ask for one when purchasing from others.

My biggest problem with this situation, and others like it, is how the seller ends up getting bashed for a problem he did offer to fix. He did offer to get the snake feeding and return it. He also offered what some would say was a fair refund 75%. It sounds bad because 25% in this case was $250, but 25% is not horribly out of line. He made an offer to fix the problem and instead of going through with one of those options Greg decides to post here. The seller views this and sees that at this point he's being made out to be a bad guy. He says, "You know what, screw it!" We've all heard the old saying "the customer is always right." But, those of us who have actually experienced retail know that's a load of horse ####ake.

If Greg has documentation (email) that says he was guaranteed a feeding snake, he can persue that avenue. If Greg has emails stating the genetic paperwork would be included with the sale, he can persue that avenue. But saying the snake was feeding is very different than saying it will feed in the future. There's a boat in my yard that I haven't used or touched in close 5 years. When I parked it, it ran great, but I'd bet a lot of money it ain't gonna run right now or any time on the near future w/o someone doing a lot of work on it. The seller not mentioning the fact that the snake was skinny and hadn't fed recently from breeding is a problem, but it was a problem he did offer several solutions for.

Because Greg didn't CHA up front he had to work from the point of arrived "alive and in good condition." Since it sounds like the seller did admit to there being a problem with the snake. Greg should have asked what happens if I give it the Flagyl and it still won't eat? Or just returned it let the seller fix the problem. Or if he still didn't like those options he was offered a way to cut his losses. I bet next time Greg will CHA up front, as everyone should.

The seller (Todd I think) isn't neccessarily a bad guy because he doesn't offer some guarantee that we are happy with. He is just a guy selling animals, animals that Greg was impressed enough with to buy. Greg was also confident enough in the terms presented to him that he felt safe with the deal. I still have not seen Greg say that he was lied to about a health guarantee. The genetics yes, but nothing else, and as I've said that is a problem that would hold up in any court. $1000 for a boa w/o paperwork is a HUGE problem that would be easy to illustrate to a judge. I just think Greg is arguing the wrong point. Give it the Flagyl (it's cheap) and start working the genetics angle. If Todd can't provide it, then he misrepresented the animal and you should get a refund. I think a judge would agree w/ you. Good Luck

 

[The BoidSmith]

Greg,

When you said:

I'll guarantee it as being healthy, feeding on f/t rats, and I'll even e-mail you a piece of paper with no picture stating it really is a het, honest.

Was that just an example, or did Todd actually e-mail you a piece of paper stating it's genetics?

 

[Greg Riso]

Alvaro, I received an e-mail from Todd assuring me of both snakes sources and genetics. Two days prior to shipping I requested Todd provide proper documentation regarding genetics and sources for both animals and include same in the box when shipped. When there was nothing included in the package I again e-mailed Todd requesting this information. I posted a copy of what I received on the first page of this thread but will repost it here again.

Subj: Re: Animals Received
Date: 3/21/2003 2:54:24 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
CC: [email protected]
Sent from the Internet (Details)




Greg,

For your records...This is to confirm that the '01 anerythristic female (captive-produced by Boa Republic) and the '01 hypo (het for anerythrism) captive-produced by Jeremy Stone pictured below were sent to you on 3/18/03. If there are any questions, please feel free to e-mail or call.

Thanks,

~Todd
707-576-3927


'01 Hypo (het anery) Male (CB Jeremy Stone)


'01 Anerythristic Female (CB Boa Republic)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately when I copy and paste the embedded images don't show. There was a picture for the female anery that I was able to verify with one present at Boa Republic's website and the animal I received. There is no dispute there. The animal is healthy, very nice and eating great. There was no picture present of the other animal, however, and I wrote Todd about this. All I have is an e-mail with Todd stating he sold me a hypo het for anery that came from Jeremy Stone BUT NO PICTURE! Don't you think that this proof is necessary when dealing with hets? Don't you feel there is an added value when you have an animal that can be proven to have come from a reptable breeder such as Jeremy Stone? Right now I have neither. I cannot in good conscience market this animal as anything other than a straight hypo unless I actually prove him out. I still can't be certain he came from Jeremy Stone unless Jeremy himself can vouge for this. What really irks me here is several people's belief that the BUYER is to blame and is at fault here. I have yet to see one single post here from the seller even though I actually invited his discussion here. In fact, I even made him aware of it in the interest of fairness. Doesn't anyone here think his lack of response is a little fishy? Oh, I forgot this matter has been officially closed. Must be convenient when your money's not at stake.
Brian, Regarding Todd Smith I only initially posted a thread here to seek other people's opinions, not to label Todd as a bad guy at all. I initially posted a thread at the BOI without Todd's name involved and kept the scenario generic. The result was it was bumped to the General Business Discussions area. Here's the link to that original thread:
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16104
Also note I was penalized 1 point for postiing in this manner by Webslave since I did not mention a subject name in the title (sorry webslave). So you see I was not out for vengence but merely seeking opinions and advice because in two days from that post I was faced with a decision of what to do or the whole matter according to Todd's ultimatum would be closed. Faced with the fact that most likely no one would see the post in the General Business Discussion Forum, (sorry again Webslave), I chose to repost it with Todd's name at the BOI. It is apparent Todd has no intention of making good here. He has had more than ample opportunity to do so. Heh, it's only a matter of $1,000, right? Let this thread serve as ample warning to others.

 

[Darin Chappell]

Alvaro,

I think Greg was being facetious with that supposed "qoute" there. I don't believe those were actually Todd's words. Correct me, if am wrong, Greg.

 

[bpc]

Greg, I'm totally w/ you on the genetics issue. Todd's refusal to post could be fishy or it could be he is out of town or doesn't care or his computer is broke or..... I tend to only consider the facts set before me. As of right now, I think Todd should either provide you proof (sales receipt from Jeremy Stone) of the animal's genetics or accept the animal back for a full refund. I don't even think that email is good enough to be considered proof even if the picture did come through. Industry standard is a sales receipt w/ the genetics clearly stated. Further, I think you could win on this issue in court.

Have you tried the Flagyl yet? You can get it from your vet for ~$3 per pill which is more than enough to treat your boa. I have the liquid form but you can only get that in Mexico. Let me know if you need the doseage info.
Brian

 

[The BoidSmith]

Don't you think that this proof is necessary when dealing with hets?

Yes. It should be requested by the buyer and provided by the seller. It protects both in the event that, as you say, there is any doubt in the future about the genetics of the animal. Have you tried contacting Jeremy Stone?

 

[kim felts]

any further news on this situation?
or are you just sol because he didnt appreciate the fact that you asked for opinions on what to do..
if so..we now have a FORGET THIS CAT POST.


see ya todd.

 

[Greg Riso]

No News

Kim, I haven't heard a thing. I'm going to try and get this hypo to feed and if successful maintain him in quarantine until next breeding season. At that time if he does not prove out expect round two of this saga to continue on this thread. I'm going to send Todd's pic of this animal to Jeremy Stone to see if he can verify the genetics directly. Something Godd aka Mr. customer service should have done in IMHO.

 

[MSL]

Greg

Please keep us posted as to Jeremy's reply. And thanks for the heads up on Todd, just sorry our benefit came at your expense.

Meryl Lechner

 

[Greg Riso]

Imagine That

I wrote Jeremy and below his response with a copy of my letter. I never mentioned anything about this thread and I think it's pretty funny that his first comment is about how skinny the animal is. Also please note he never sold a DH Anery to Todd Smith. Kind of makes you wonder why Todd really didn't want the animal back, huh? So here you have a candid well respected expert's unsolicited opinion of Todd's quality animal.

Subj: Re: Animal ID
Date: 4/5/2003 7:32:49 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: "Jeremy Stone" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent from the Internet (Details)


To be honest Greg, That animal looks pretty skinny, and I can't identify with it. There is NO way I would be able to tell that is one of the ones I produced since hypos change SOO much. Also, I never sold a DH for ghost to Todd Smith. So, it would help me verify it if you could find out the history of the animal, and where it has been, and maybe it would ring a bell of someone I sold the animal to. However, as for me identifying that THAT is the animal I sold to the person, I won't be able to do that. All I can tell you is YES, I did sell that person a DH for ghost. As for me guaranteeing the gentics of that animal you sent me a pic of, I am sorry but I can not do that. I ALWAYS send proper documentation with my animals. ESPECIALLY DH's, so it wouldn't be hard to get the actual documentation from me if the person I sold the animal to still has it. Take Care, Jeremy Stone
----- Original Message -----
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 2:19 PM
Subject: Animal ID


Hi Jeremy. I purchased an animal (pic attached) from Todd Smith said to have been produced by you. He posted it as a male 2000 hypo het anery but could not provide me with the proper documentation so I have no way to verify this animal's het status or that it actually was produced by you. He also referred to it as a 2001 so I'm not sure which birth year is correct. It is now about 5' long if that helps. I would greatly appreciate your cooperation in helping me identify it. If it is what Todd says it is could you please provide me with the proper documentation? Thank you very much.

Greg Riso


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[The BoidSmith]

As for me guaranteeing the gentics of that animal you sent me a pic of, I am sorry but I can not do that.

This is the reason why I agreed with you that pictures are a must when selling heteros. When you buy an expensive snake things might change and you may want to sell it down the road. Without a signed picture the original breeder will not be able to recognize the animal and guarantee it's genetics.

I'll second Meryl's words, thanks Greg for the heads up! Sorry it had to be this way though.

 

[kim felts]

ok so chain of custody..who bought it first and how many places has it been meanwhile.
too bad people dont have to sign off on the back of the papers to let others know this sort of stuff but in this case it would not help you anyhow.
as for todds quality healthy animal..we already know he used it for his breeding and then passed it over to you to fix it back up.
since you could not meet his standards by asking for opinions
your sol expecting any help from him.
geez..what a way to handle things..
glad i never bought the rick straub male he had for sale.
i can just imagine how that would have gone because that snake was just done breeding as well.


kim

 

[Stardust]

I love the BOI. There is one thing that irks me at times though, that is when someone has done business with the seller in question they always try to make the seller look bad.
There are two sides to every person, 1) the seller that shows what he/she is like when the buyer is happy, and 2) the seller that shows what they are like when a buyer is not happy. One person comes to mind here that is no longer invited on this forum yet not banned.
The buyer, Greg was not satisfied. As previous discussions shows sometimes it does take longer for the 24 hrs to see if an animal is ok or not, ie,. feeding. He wants his money back for an animal he feels was missrepresented. What is the problem. When I look at the BOI now I look at how a person deals with someone who is NOT happy more than I look at how he/she acts when the buyer IS happy. That shows the real person.
Why should Greg only get a 75% refund? Todd will be getting 100% of the snake back. And only if it is returned alive? It is a sick or at the very least a weak snake, how can Greg guarentee that? That is suicide.
And gee, Todd reduced himself to threatening legal ramifications for posting on the BOI. Havent we heard that one before from the best of them.
Greg deserves his money back, all of it.
I love this forum and how sometimes people forget how many people actually do read this and form their own thoughts and how much business one can really lose for one bad transaction.

 

[Stardust]

Sorry, that first paragraph was meant to say try to make the buyer look bad.