Todd Smith (Deal Gone South)

[kim felts]

brian

my purchase was going to be 350.00 but 350..1000..or whatever its alot of money if its going to be lost or if there is a problem.
now that being said..there are ALOT of people i would send 1000.00 too if i had too.
its not practical for me to fly across the country etc but i understand what your saying about seeing the animal first..in the perfect world it would be nice to be able to travel to the seller..check out the snake first and hand over the loot..
if i could only pack myself into an airborne box and do just that..
how fun that would be..

 

[bpc]

Yell all you want, I'll type more. LOL

Gary, if you'd actually read my posts you'd see that I agree with you about Greg deserving a refund. Genetics, health, feeding are all possible avenues for him to get said refund. What I am trying to explain to you people, is that Greg should have checked on Todd's refund policy BEFORE THE SALE!!!!!!!!! Perhaps, (we don't know), Todd doesn't give refunds. Greg has never said that he checked any of that up front. He has never showed us any emails. He has never pointed us to Todd's website or his ad.

Everyone is just assuming to that Greg is entitled to a refund because he's not happy with the snake. When in fact the case may be that the Todd made it very clear that his only health guarantee was that the snakes would arrive alive. If Greg knew that, confirmed that they did arrive alive, then the deal is closed. I AGREE THAT THOSE TERMS SUCK MUCH BOOTY, especially when we're talking about a $1000 snake, but, from what we know so far, Greg agreed to them.

I'm playing the devil's advocate here for a reason folks. I got burned badly several years ago. I didn't protect myself up front, and in the end my only recourse would have been to fly across country and beat the crap out of somebody, which wouldn't have been cost effective because we were only talking about $200 and a whole lot of aggravation. Know the seller if possible, and if you don't, have their terms in writting up front. Discuss what happens if there is a problem, before there is one. If you don't like/aren't comfortable with their policies before the sale, you can bet you really won't be after the sale. Insist on pictures taken on the front of a daily newspaper so you can see what the animal looks like now! And if you are buying animals worth thousands of dollars isn't it worth another couple a hundred to go and pick them out yourself?

 

[bpc]

Greg, I just discovered something that I found a little strange. I was reading the Generasian thread where you were upset because they had not responding to your offer of a trade of 5' hypo produced by Jeremy Stone and a 3' female produced by Boa Republic on 3/19. Those two snakes seem awfully familiar. Are they in fact the same two you reported recieved from Todd on the same date?

 

[Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous]

Okay, I've stayed away from this one, but just wanted to chime in on what Brian is saying here about refunds, policies, etc.

In other words Brian, what you are saying, is that since Greg did not ask Todd up front about his return policies, he is less entitled to a refund than someone who did ask? So should Greg have asked him, "Todd, now, if I receive this snake from you, and find that you've completely misrepresented and lied about its health, feeding habits, and genetics, what kind of restitution will you make?" I agree that you should ask all the pertinent questions up front in a purchase, but there is also a line in asking TOO many questions. This is one of the reasons I am trying to stick to people I know or that have clearly posted terms in their ads/websites. But I am not everyone, and I have also bought from people I don't know at all. Every once in a while, you have to go with someone you have no or little experience with to get what you want, does that mean you should get screwed for it?

I think even you agree that the bottom line is that even though Greg didn't ask every little detail involving possible problems up front(when it gets down to it, how many of us DO ask for all the possible solutions for possible problems up front?), from the information we've been given, he was lied to by the seller. Plain and simple. Regardless if Greg asked every question possible before purchase, Greg bought and paid for an animal he did not receive.

Greg asked about the animal's feeding habits and was told it is feeding great on f/t rats. That has been shown now to be untrue. And Todd even had the gall to tell Greg he needed to medicate the snake with Flagyl to induce a feeding response! What kind of healthy, feeding snake needs to take meds to eat?

Greg asked for paperwork on the genetics of the snake. He has not been provided with anything. And the breeder who is supposed to have produced this animal can't vouch for it(though this isn't SUCH a big deal as there are no id numbers or other proof for Greg to ask Jeremy Stone about, it still is questionable).

Greg bought and paid for a healthy, feeding, male hypo double het for whatever. He got a non-feeding and thin animal of unknown genetic background. So in other words, he got 0% of what he paid for in my opinion. Greg got 0% of what he paid for, so he should get back 100% of his payment, not 75%, not 99%, 100%.

 

[Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous]

Brian,

interesting add on, I completely missed that thread. Perhaps I'll go take a look see.

And just another note...

Most of us doing this are not rich by any means as I'm sure you well know. It's hard enough to scrape up the extra $1000 to get a snake for most of us(trust me, I KNOW lol). Adding an extra couple hundred or whatever gas/plane tickets cost is bordering excessive...but of course paying a grand for a snake isn't. LOL

 

[bpc]

Rob, assuming Greg's story is 100% true, the only instance in which he wouldn't be entitled to a refund is if Todd had a stated policy of no refunds. Or something along those lines, such as any returns must be made within x amount of hours/days of receipt. I understand one can't cover everything before the sale, but return policy or lack thereof should be one of those things that is discussed. If Todd stated his policy up front as "arrive alive and in good condition" and Greg agreed to his terms then the health issue was closed as soon as Greg said they arrived "alive and in good condition."

Please see my above post also, it looks to me like Greg not only received those snakes alive and in good condition, but was also comfortable enough with their appearance to offer up those snakes for trade the very same day he claims to have received them. I could be wrong though, we'll have wait for Greg to reply.

 

[Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous]

...from the information we've been given, he was lied to by the seller.

I agree Brian, that is why I said, "...from the information we've been given..." Unfortunately, we only have Greg's side of the story, we do not have Todd's. For whatever reason, he's chosen to stay off the board(which could go either way for him at this point). That unfortunately only leaves us with one side of the story, which although not fair, until Todd comes into it, leaves us without much else to go on than Greg's presentation of the facts.

Also, I will have to go back and read that thread about Generasian and the animals Greg wanted to trade. Thanks for pointing out that tidbit. Perhaps Greg set up the trade prior to receipt of the animals? Perhaps not.

I am not condemning Greg, or even Todd really(though it sounds that way, without hearing his side I really can't condemn him, but I DO disagree strongly with his actions as presented to us).

And just out of curiosity, Brian, let's say a seller does have a "No refunds" policy. Does that make it okay for the seller to lie to the buyer about the animal and ship him/her something they didn't give their hard-earned money for(the sick non-feeder versus that shows up versus the healthy chowhound that was advertised)?

 

[bpc]

No, absolutely not. But again we only have Greg saying that was how the animal was represented. He hasn't posted any actual email from Todd proclaiming the snake as such. And don't forget by Greg's own admission Todd WAS WILLING to try and make the feeding situation right. Now, Greg and many people here may not have liked Todd's suggested remedy, but don't forget that he did offer one (two actually).

The more I think about it the more this smells fishy. Why, if Greg was so unhappy with the snake, did he think it was good enough to offer it up for a trade the night after he got it? Remember, he has already said it was several days later that he contacted Todd about his displeasure concerning the animal.

 

[Greg Riso]

It's Time For Todd to Post

Brian,

To my knowledge Todd has no website or terms page for anyone to view. In my first inquiry to Todd in response to his Kingsnake ad I asked him about whether or not he guaranteed live arrival and if both animals were feeding on f/t rats. At this point these were just very basic questions since as I stated it was my first inquiry. I do not have a copy of this letter because I must not have checked off the box for a return copy be sent to me for my records. Todd responded that they were both feeding on f/t and that they were in excellent health having never been sick. A copy of that response has already been posted here. He also included a phone number in his reply so I decided to call him. It was on the phone that we discussed the animal's origins, pricing, health, genetics, etc. From our conversation I had no reason to believe that all was not in order. I was never told that the male hypo het anery was used the entire season as a breeder, was very thin and not feeding, or that I wouldn't have original documentation regarding genetics provided. I was led to believe that it was feeding and healthy. Regardless of Todd's return policy (that isn't written anywhere) the animal was not represented to me as having any health problems. His lack of mentioning this fact was NOT due to my negligence as I specifically asked all of these questions in our telephone conversation. After speaking with him I had no reason to believe I would be sent a substandard animal.
Your statement that I should fly out to wherever an animal is to view it first hand is both impractical and extremely costly. When I'm flying around the country who's paying for these costs, caring for my animals, and working my full time job? Perhaps you wouldn't buy $1,000 animals without viewing first but I spend that amount and more very frequently. Funny thing is out of literally hundreds of transactions over the net this is the first time I've been major burned. Now you can try to blame me for some type of negligence on my part or choose to place the blame where it correctly belongs. That being on the seller for misrepresenting the animal that led to this thread. I'm not going to waste my time here any longer dispelling what you feel in your mind I should have done.
Count how many times I've responded here and now I'd like you to count how many times Todd has come forward to explain his side of the situation. Do you honestly feel that if he had a leg to stand on he wouldn't come here to defend himself? You know he's aware of this thread because I notified him of it and even cordially invited his comments here. Now Brian I'd like you to really ponder the following question. Do you think there's just a remote possibility that he knows he's guilty and that's the reason he's chosen to remain silent? You know how it goes, "anything you choose to say can and will be used against you in a court of law".
Ya think?

 

[Greg Riso]

Regarding Generasian Exotics Post

Again Brian, you've completely missed the boat here. In response to the Generasian Exotics post, where do you see me saying on 3/19 that I had these to animals to trade them? Here's what I posted back when copied and pasted.

No Go For Me
Okay, I've inquired twice about this company and you don't think it's fair. How about my inquiry about what these people posted in their ad at Kingsnake, that being a trade for exactly what I offered them? Here's a copy of my letter to them in direct response to their ad at Kingsnake. It is the copy that Kingsnake sent me when I checked off the square requesting same.:

Subj: Message about : ALBINO BOAS AVAILABLE and TRADE!
Date: 3/14/2003 9:53:08 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent from the Internet (Details)



Below is a copy of the mesage you sent to GenerAsian Exotics

I'm interested in trading near adult boa morphs for your albino boas. I have a 5' male hypo from Jeremy Stone and a 3.5' female anery from Boa Republic that I'd like to trade. Where in Canada are you located? I'm in New Hampshire and wondering how difficult it would be to do a trade. Please let me know if you're interested in doing something or what else you may be interested in. I have a lot of boa morphs. Thank you.
Greg Riso


----------------------------------------------
This message was sent by the user: boamorphs

Sent 08:33 PM, Mar 14th, 2003 from I.P. Address 24.61.120.6


Okay, I only sent this letter to them two days ago and still have not heard a peep out of them. That's not to surreal but why do I have a feeling I'm never going to hear from them? Why would they post an ad looking to trade for what I have and not respond? I'm hesitant to deal with people who are hard to reach and are in another country where our laws in the US don't mean a lot even with reciprocity. The business I was considering doing with them would have amounted to at least $2,000 if not more.
Just because they have a fancy website, nice animals pictured in their ad, and claim to have sold an entire clutch of albino boas, doesn't mean they are legit.
I'm not here to bad mouth them at all. Maybe they are completely above board and I'd be happy to work with them if this is the case. What I am saying here is there's something a little fishy about them and until someone on planet Earth can tell me otherwise I don't think there'll ever be anything happening from this guy.


__________________
Greg Riso
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My letter to them regarding these two animals was sent a full five days before I actually had them in my possesion. I mentioned to them that I had these animals because technically I'd paid for them one week before and was expecting them in at any moment. The weather did not cooperate so I did not actually receive the animals until 3/19. My letter to Generasian was very preliminary and I was merely testing their interest in these animals or any other boa morphs I already had in my possesion. I had no way of knowing at that point that one of the animals Todd would end up sending me would be a bone. Of course had I known I would never have tried to sell such an animal and never will do so. If my dealings with Generasian had gone furthur I would have had no reason not to disclose their source of having come from Todd. So I ask you Brian, where did you get a date of 3/19 for me trying to market a sick animal to Generasian Exotics or anyone else for that matter. Man, you are so far off it's not funny.

 

[Darin Chappell]

What about that proposed trade with Generasian that Brian mentioned, Greg? Is that the same snake, or not? Although I think you deserve a refund on your animal for lack of paperwork showing its genetics, and it appears that the animal may not be from the claimed big breeder, I think this issue needs to be addressed by you, concerning the trade possibility.

If it is the same animal, it looks like either a) the animal wasn't in too bad a condition when you received it, or b) you were then willing to trade off an animal whose condition you knew to be sub-par. If it is not the same animal, you need to make that clear so that no one jumps to the wrong conclusion about you!

Please clear up this confusion, if you can. Thanks in advance!

 

[Darin Chappell]

Well, Greg addressed the issue of the proposed trade date while I was typing that last post! Do I get quick answers, or what?!?!?





However, there is one thing I wanted to ask you, Greg. You say you emailed that trade proposal two days ago. But weren't you already aware that there was no way to prove the animal had come from Jeremy Stone by then? If you did not have conclusive proof that the animal was not one of his, you knew you certainly could not prove he was, because you did not have the necessary paperwork.

If that trade had gone through, wouldn't you be doing one of the same things for which you are now criticizing Todd: selling/trading an animal as if it is of a lineage for which there is no proof? Based upon your argumentation here, wouldn't you then owe a refund to Generasian, if that trade had gone through? I mean you couldn't have supplied the paperwork you did not have, right?

 

[bpc]

Greg, I'm assuming that is the snake in question. To be honest, it doesn't even look like a good quality hypo to me. It does not look extremly thin or unhealthy, certainly it doesn't look emaciated. I've already said that if he lied to you then you deserve a refund. Did you ask when the last time it fed was? I mean that's a pretty basic question. Greg I'm going ultra seller friendly here to make my point. I think you assumed that just because Todd had nice, expensive snakes that he did business the way you expected him to. Unfortunatly now, it looks like your conclusion was wrong.

I also would love for Todd to come here and post. I went as far as doing a Google search and trying to email him. Unfortunatly the addy I came up with was no good. If you'd like send me his addy and I'll try and contact him.

I notice you didn't address the issue of offering the snakes up for trade the day you got them. Any particular reason?

You mention how costly it would have been to investigate the snakes more before you bought them. But as it stands right now you paid $1000 for a rather common looking boa. And on top of that, you think it's to skinny. That's $1000 minus the cost of a plane ticket you could have saved yourself.

 

[Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous]

The animal pictured appears to be an anerythristic, perhaps the one Gary received from Todd?

BUT, if that is what you were sent as a hypo, great google moogle man, you got TOOK!

And Darrin, the "two days ago" was part of the original post on Generasian, not what he was saying now.

 

[bpc]

Greg, I apoligize, I misread the date on the email. Sorry. Please ignore all previous comments along that line. We were typing at the same time and overlapped each other. Otherwise it wouldn't have gotten this far.

Again sorry.

 

[Greg Riso]

Brian,

Regarding the issue of whether or not I could have provided proof of genetics to Generasian on these animals the answer is a resounding NO! You are well aware that the genetics issue is one of the two major reasons why this thread is here in the first place.
Again I reiterate, at the time I wrote Generasian Exotics (which was 3/14 not 3/19 as you've stated) I was under the impression that proof of genetics would be provided and included with the shipment of the animals. The sources of the animals and their genetics were posted in Todd's original ad of which I have a copy, and discussed over the phone. How was I to know that Todd would not send them with the shipment as I requested? When I wrote Generasian I had every reason to believe this information would be forthcoming along with the animals. I never would have attempted to market animals, especially a het, without proper documentation. But that didn't stop Todd from doing so did it?
If you wish to contact Todd there are several e-mails posted here that contained his addy so why are you having a hard time finding it? If he's changed it I'm not aware of this. As of a few days ago he posted another animal at Kingsnake in the boa section. Certainly you could reach him by clicking on the "contact me" link in the ad if it's still posted.
And finally, the picture is of the hypo that was sent to me and I agree with the following statement by Rob Hill:
"BUT, if that is what you were sent as a hypo, great google moogle man, you got TOOK!"
In closing I say to Rob, YOU CAN SAY THAT AGAIN!

 

[Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous]

Great google moogle man, you got TOOK!

Though I will say, from that pic, he doesn't look THAT thin or emmaciated. Personally, I'd like to see him heavier, but he doesn't look THAT bad in the pic.

Now, were you sent pics of this animal beforehand? I will be 100% honest with you, a hypo that is NOT, by ANY means. I have had several what were sold and given to me as normal Colombians that looked pretty much like that animal(though there was more red in the tail).

I'm not trying to be rude, but Greg, if you bought THAT as a hypo, tsk tsk tsk

Cheers!

 

[Greg Riso]

Rob,

LOL, The picture I provided is one I copied from the original Kingsnake ad posted by Todd. It is also the same one I sent to Jeremy Stone asking him to help identify it as being from him. I agree with you that upon first review I don't think the animal looked that bad as far as being emaciated which is one of the reasons why I went ahead and bought it. It's difficult to tell the scale in the pic but that animal's supposed to be 5' long. Now look at the size of the head in relation to the body and it is oversized IMO in relation to the rest of the body. When I sent the pic to Jeremy Stone his first words were, "To be honest Greg, That animal looks pretty skinny, and I can't identify with it." So although to yours and my eyes the animal didn't look that bad, through Jeremy's trained expert eyes another candid opinion was given. Also, I'd like to make it clear here that the animal that I received was much thinner and in no way resembled that original picture in terms of size. Had I been provided with a more recent and representative pic of the animal as it actually appeared at the time of purchase I never would have bought it.
As for it's not looking like a hypo I'm not really certain on that issue. It certainly is not a salmon hypo but there are a wide variety of hypos out there that I have seen and some looked like this one. Anyway, I was more interested in it's being a hypo het for anery to produce ghosts. If this animal was said to have been produced by Jeremy Stone and was het for anery, who was I to question such an animal? IMHO Jeremy's not capable of producing a bad animal and to say so is almost sacrilegious lol.
Also the hypo was only one half of the package. I was just as interested in the female anery and the anery I received was flawless. I've stated from the get go that animal was not at issue here.

But let's for a minute assume the pictured animal is NOT a hypo. Doesn't this even furthur bolster my argument regarding misrepresentation? In Todd's ad regarding this pair of animals he stated, "This is an excellent head-start in producing GHOSTS and more!" So these animals were sold to me under certain pretense. Now you're saying what was sold to me as a DH Ghost doesn't even look like a hypo. To that I can only say amen brother. It's just one more coal added to the fire.

 

[Gary Walsch]

Greg,

You are right in that there are varrying degrees of hypos and yes I would call that a hypo......If it had the genetics you were looking for and was feeding properly I think you would be happy right now but .......Let's hope Todd does the right thing here. And just for the sake of argument if some has a return policy of live arrival only and everything else is not considered then then the animal should be represented properly when it arrives and those terms do not give the seller the right to commit fraud just because his animal get to your house alive. And it shouldn't matter if it's a $10 or $1000 animal no one has the right to cheat anyone.

 

[Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous]

Well, I guess I stand corrected on the "hypo or not hypo" question. lol

Admittedly, boa morphs are not my specialty, but I have had several boas over the years come through my hands looking just like that animal as nothing more than common Colombians. I guess when I hear "hypo," the light colored and reduced pattern slamons are what come to mind.