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Tony Hurts Genetic Guarentee??? (HETS)

David unfortunately it was a verbal agreement. And as far as your post about multiple male breeding's.I have never ran a multiple male breeding involving a simple recessive morph. I would consider doing multiple co Dom's but never a recessive trait. I asked Tony if he did this and he never responded? If that is the case he could have payed for his mistake like a man and kept some of his dignity but instead he hides. He doesn't even feel he owes me a few minutes on the phone, Thats what really pisses me off. Paul
 
So if you buy a het. and get burned chalk it up as a learning experience. That is a GREAT message to send Dave. Since Paul has 17 adult hets it should not be that big of a deal. Like Paul is saying it is the PRINCIPLE of the matter. How many hets have you proved out Dave? Did it take you 3-? years of breeding it to the homozygous form?

Chad Umbaugh
 
Yeah, the not calling you back thing is lousy.

That, above anything else, would put me in your corner. But, I think you have to have reasonable expectations about a remedy. The verbal agreement might have been based on him wanting the sale, or him knowing in his mind that it was a Het and he had nothing to worry about. Bottom line, I still think your money back and another Het female and you keep the original snake is fair. OR, you keep the snake and he sends you an Albino, but no money. I am sure you would see it differently, for obvious reasons.

As for Chad, if he only had one other Het Albino, then getting his money back and another Het Albino with a big time guarantee, might be a good solution. Since he has several Het females, he does not "need" another Het, so a Homozygous animal or refund is probably the correct course of action.

Dave
 
David you just don't get it. So you are saying it is OK to lie to make the sale? Promise whatever you have to to steal that persons money? David I do not want you to think I am attacking you personally but some of your remedy's make no sense at all. If he gives me a albino we should be even? I know there are a lot of people reading this thread right now so please will someone else try and make some sense of what David is saying here? Anyone? Paul
 
Dave

What does it matter how many hets Paul has? Why do you see the what is fair changing on that fact?

Chad Umbaugh
 
Paul

You want what you say was promised should the snake not prove out, in a verbal guarantee. I think, based on no return phone calls, that your verbal guarantee is out the window. So, we lay down and kick and scream, or try to find a solution that makes sense...again, the verbal guarantee seems to be out the window, and is a he said, he said situation anyhow.

So, you should get your money back, and he should get the snake back?

You should get your money back, and keep the snake, and you can buy your Albino.

You can get your money back, keep the female, and he sends you a Het female again, as an apology.

You want animals to replace animals that you never even hatched out, that you think you could have hatched out, if the female was a Het, probably not going to happen, and it is just a learning experience. I thought Tony was a good guy, still might be, but this will certainly tarnish his record with me, if he does not follow through somehow.

Dave
 
Chad, I do not see what is fair being based

on how many Hets he has, I see what he WANTS being based on the fact that he has a plethora of Hets as it is, and probably would like a Homozygous animal and/or a refund in place of another Het...17, 18 Hets, same thing. If he only had one or two, he might want his money back and a few extra Het females.

Dave
 
Paul

I would write Tony an email, asking if he intends to honor the verbal agreement, and if not, what his solution is.

Dave
 
So you are saying Tony does not want to give me the original guarantee so thats out the window. Lets see if we can come up with a solution that is more to the likings of Tony LOL. Listen he gave me a guarantee wether verbal ,written or whatever it does not change when he wants it too. He has a choice either live up to the agreement that HE made or deal with the consequences. I did not come up with the original guarantee HE did. A few years later he decided it does not work for him so we need to rethink a solution? Thats not how business works David. Tony entered into a binding contract thats all there is to it. End of discussion. Paul
 
So with the verbal agreement out window, Paul has to take it up the :censored: Not Tony. Who in your words is still a good guy who can not answer the phone or come on here agian to answer these questions. As for YOU trying to figure out what is a good solution based on the hets Paul has is a joke. You have NO idea what future plans in breeding he has for them or anything else. The fact is NO matter what happens Paul will take the lose on this one, it is obvious Tony is not a good guy and his word means nothing. No matter what you figure out Dave as a good solution, Tony will not hold to it. Like Paul said all he had to do was answer the phone or call him back and this would not even be here. Tonys true colors have been shown.

Chad Umbaugh
 
If there was a verbal guarantee,

and I have no reason to doubt there was, if Tony does not follow through, what recourse does Paul have other than to let people contemplating doing business with Tony, know about his negative experience?

With that said, and like I have already said, you can go on letting it get you down, or move on. Take a refund, ask to keep the original snake, and buy a nice Albino female, and move on, assuming Tony will do that.

Right now, with no guarantee in writing, it is basically what Tony is willing to do, like it or not. I am not saying that is a good thing, I am saying with nothing to back up Paul's position in writing, what can Paul do?

Paul is still clinging to the verbal guarantee, which by Tony's actions, Tony has probably "forgotten" about. I would write Tony and see what his offer to rectify the situation would be, and go from there. I think Paul will go in with too high of expectations, based on the verbal guarantee, and this will go unsolved for an extended period of time. I would write Tony, and if his offer is not acceptable, counter with something else, but I think asking for two Albinos is going to probably make Tony clam up again.

Tony and I emailed a year or so back and forth about a trade, I think I have been in contact with him a few times over the years about deals or trades, and always have thought highly of him. This thread makes me rethink things. I probably would not deal with him unless he rectifies this situation.

Dave
 
One last thing, and I think I am done:)

I am assuming Tony sold the Het in good faith.

I sold a nice Het Albino female, and am shipping her tomorrow. This snake was produced and purchased from Brian Sharp. She has not been proven out yet by me, she is only 1200 grams now, and that does not meet my size for a breeding female. I am selling her in good faith, and if she does not produce Albinos next year, I will offer a refund, and try and prove out the snake myself.

Dave
 
Dave, verbal agreement or written, what is the difference. Look at how many people have paper work from TSE and CRE. What is that written guarentee worth. If I know I sold somebody a snake and it isn't right I would do everything I could to make it right. Paul I wish you luck on this.
 
bznj said:
Dave, verbal agreement or written, what is the difference. Look at how many people have paper work from TSE and CRE. What is that written guarentee worth. If I know I sold somebody a snake and it isn't right I would do everything I could to make it right. Paul I wish you luck on this.
Click to expand...
OK say you sold me a snake that didn't prove out.. Now to do everything in your power to make it right by me would require that you cover my perceived losses from the two breeding's say just 3 Albinos one year and 4 the next at a rock bottom cost of 1 grand each so that's 7 grand. But I also want a new female so that's what another grand you owe me for a total of 8 thousand dollars.

But wait your written guarantee says you'll just replace the female or refund my purchase price!! I think I want the 8 grand instead to make me happy and keep me from smearing your name all over the internet.

Paul I'm not saying your smearing the guys name far from it, from what I know of you you are a honest person. But you have no written guarantee that says you'll get a free female albino ETC ETC if this one doesn't prove out.. And who knows she may yet prove out ! yeah it sucks no two ways about it yet much longer odds have come in... Your going after a guy who also has a pretty good Rep,, and to me this thread isn't helping either one of you.

Heck I've done the same thing as you IE taken a verbal guarantee over the phone and I hope like you did that it doesn't bite me in the butt. If it does bite me I imagine I'll do like you and post it here and hope for the best.

In the past issues like this one have come up -- What happens if a Het doesn't prove out.. People have claimed they expect to be compensated for lost income(one even before he bred his Hets ) for the visual animals they didn't produce and to getting food and keeping cost refunded. Can't see that, if you buy an animal and accept the guarantee that came with it then live with it when things don't go so well. Yeah we're not going to be thrilled but hey it could be one of your Hets down the road that doesn't prove out for 3 years and don't say "Never happen to me" ya never know..

Randy
 
Let's face facts everybody offers pretty much the same shipping and het. guarentee. Either you get a refund or a homo. animal. If it takes both to make a customer happy then that is what it takes. If Tony made any other promises written or otherwise he should stick to it. And look at this thread already. Don't you think it would have been worth it to toss extra (within reason) his way not to have this going on. I do and you don't have to agree with me, but that's how I see it and that's how I would handle it.
 
Hello Randy thank you for your input. Did you read the entire thread? I am only asking for what I was told I would get. Tony's guarantee was I would get a full refund and get a albino of my choice and still get to keep the female because in 05 proven normal females were going for $500.00 . You see when I did this deal with Tony I just got done proving out a Rick Miller fake het. So I explained to Tony that I was not looking for any third part hets and he assured me that he produced this animal and he is the one that offered the guarantee. I am not asking to be reimbursed for lost production or food and housing. Just the guarantee Tony gave me nothing more nothing less. I feel that too many people let things like this slide and I am not taking this lightly. And as far as if one of my hets not proving out I highly dought that. I am very careful when it comes to my breeding's but I will say publicy right now in front of all of you. If a pair of my hets, my male and female or a homozygous animal and a het female from me does not prove out after two successful breeding's. I will refund you your purchase price in full and you will receive two of the morphs that you were working with. One for each year of breeding. I feel that is fair and that is the least I would expect from someone if the situation was reversed.I am not asking Tony to do anything that I would not do myself if I was in his situation. Believe me I do not want my name on any kind of thread like this but I honestly believe I was wronged and I stand up for what I believe in. And this Hobby/ Business is something I work very hard at and when someone tries to tarnish this hobby by selling fake hets I am not going to let it slide no matter what the cost. I still think Tony at the very least owes me some answers on this thread. Paul
 
Hows it going Paul, thanks for the PM and good to hear those Jags are doing well for you. The first part of my post above was for Brian. The point to him being that it takes different things to different people to make it right by them.

I agree with you,, people should stand by what they say. But a verbal guarantee is only as good as the integrity of the person giving it and the memories of those involved. I also think Tony should explain himself here, maybe he doesn't remember or?


Paul if it were me and knowing your reputation even if I couldn't recall saying I'd do that I take your word for it. Though I don't think I'd post it here as I might be handing out more animals over guarantees I couldn't recall having made lol..Randy
 
At the very least some answers and dialogue. Offer/Counter offer or something. I would also look to create a written guarantee form letter to use in future purchases. As a buyer you have power too, if the seller won't agree to your terms for a het, shop elsewhere. You should see what I use when commisioning any custom artwork just to cover everything.
 
Back to the main topic. I wish I could help but I only have some pos. het pied females from Tony and they didn't go this year. I can't believe nobody out there can say yes or no to his hets. He has been around long enough you would think somebody has breed some of his hets. by now? Keep us posted Paul.
 
Yes I think that someone would have proved a het from him one way or the other. I know that a lot of people keep saying Tony is a good guy but I am really starting to wonder. I have only dealt with him twice and both times have been very lousy to say the least. This does not pertain to the deal at hand but shortly after I purchased the het female from Tony I read an ad on KS for normal male CH baby balls. I had a friend that sells alot of the baby's and needed a few so I called Tony. He told me that he was just trying to move them out because he was just after the females anyway. He told me they were eating great and all had three plus meals in them. Well when I got them they were looking terrible some looked like they never ate at all. All of them were very dehydrated. So I soaked them for a while and set them up and I lost a few that first day and the next. I called Tony right away and he said just give them a chance so I did. I waited a few days and tried to attempt to feed them and over half of the ones that did eat regurged that same night and shortly after died. I called Tony and kept him updated on the whole process. What really upset me was when I asked him again how many times they ate and he said he only sent me the ones that held down three consecutive meals without regurgeing in between. I should have known right then and there how Tony really is. I will say this Tony shipped me out some liquid flagyl to dose what was left alive. But I was very upset at him for lying to me in the first place, telling me that they were all doing great. The final count was 17 out of 50 lived. And Tony did give me a refund for half of the dead ones. So I had to eat the cost of 17 baby balls which I was not happy with, but I learned a lesson. Unfortunately The deal was already done with the Het. I know there were alot of people complaining about the baby's he was sending out that year. I guess what I am trying to say is I think Tony's true colors are starting to show. Paul
 
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