Top Shelf Exotics (Inquiry)

[Chameleon Company]

Dan,
He made a nice post about my business once, some time ago. Can't return the favor.

 

[DSsuper92]

Ryan,

Thanks for coming forward and speaking out. Hopefully more do and we can solve this ugly mess together.

It's ridiculous for a business to say that because a customer is unhappy they are to be put at the bottom of the pile.

I have not heard from the sales department in over two weeks now and I don't expect too anytime soon. Has anyone heard from them recently?

Thanks,
David Schroeder

 

[jglass38]

Interesting, of BOI threads with at least 600 posts, this one is quickly moving to the top.

To live on in infamy....

You know you are among the best (read: worst) when you can see lil Timmy B and CRE in your rear view.

 

[shrap]

After catching up on the last 5 days worth of posts on this thread...... I am left speechless. Truly there was never any integrity there to begin with. Just a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Not sure if my post was missed earlier in the thread, but my friend who has been waiting since November did get her "het" pied last Friday. She is at the vet today with the snake. We will see soon if that snake was also parasite ridden. I will keep you all updated.

 

[SilverStateExotics]

It starts at the bottom and works it's way up, here is the final email we received from them.


From: "Top Shelf Exotics" <[email protected]> [Save Address] [Block Sender] [This Is Spam]
To: "'Ryan Cocchiara'" <[email protected]>
CC:
Subject: Notice
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:10:19 -0400

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In lieu of your recent claim through paypal your order has been removed from our shipment queue and you may now wait to deal with our owner upon his return; however long that may be. No claim through paypal will find a refund at it’s conclusion since no funds are held in said account. We have tried to deal with your situation accordingly and have provided responses when applicable. It is apparent you wish to prolong this longer than it required so it is out of our hands now. Take care.





Sales Department


Email: [email protected]



Winter shipments may experience delays due to weather conditions to ensure safety,

we ask that customers read and understand our terms of sale before placing an order.

http://topshelfexotic.com/terms.htm

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From: "Top Shelf Exotics" <[email protected]> [Save Address] [Block Sender] [This Is Spam]
To: "'Ryan Cocchiara'" <[email protected]>
CC:
Subject: RE: Update
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:44:16 -0400

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We show multiple responses to your messages offering the updates you requested in the past. Frankly no matter what we do at this point it is never good enough. Everyone wants their orders of course, we completely understand. The time taken to send a reply is the time someone else will scream should have been used to ship their order. You can understand it is quite a madhouse. All orders are shipping, I will not lie, it is a mess. We did not anticipate such problems in our owners absence and we are trying to deal with it as best as we can. There are only so many hours in a day, most of which has been spent packaging and shipping. Correspondence and calls then suffer. We take the time to issue replies, updates, and return calls. Shipping then suffers. We take the time to feed and clean, everything else then suffers. It is a no win situation and all we can say is we are handling it the best we can and man simply cannot comprehend what it takes to do this. And with two people… You can only imagine how hard it truly is. But I am sure from the tone of your message you have no idea whatsoever. People are waiting on everything from chameleons, geckos, and other animals. It is not just ball morphs. Orders made during this past winter barely covered what we required to keep the lights on in our owners absence let alone pay what was required to feed numerous animals we literally no longer owned and were awaiting departure. I would not wish the management of this situation on anyone but can only assure folks that we are doing our best to ship out as many orders as we can in a given day without letting other aspects such as the health of our animals and correspondence suffer more than they already have. Notifications are being sent prior to shipments and we ask that customers please read and review this message and issue a response as no order will ship “blind”. We need to know someone will be on hand to sign for the package. Thank you for your patience, we certainly not wish these delays on anyone. Take care.



Sales Department


Email: [email protected]



Winter shipments may experience delays due to weather conditions to ensure safety,

we ask that customers read and understand our terms of sale before placing an order.

http://topshelfexotic.com/terms.htm


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From: Ryan Cocchiara [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 4:29 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Update



I am not quite following the email i was sent, obviously it was meant for someone else, but it was not relevant to my email. I know how busy you guys are and up to this point i have been very patient. I have not stated to any one anything about this transaction. I have not posted on any forums yet and have not taken part of anything negative about your company. I have only received one email about a week after funds were sent stating that i would shortly receive another email confirming my shipping information. that is all the emails i ever got from you until i started to make a little stink. At no point did anyone ever say that it would take this long for my animals to get here. come on 5 + months. how can anyone think that this is OK, especially without ever hearing from you besides the automated email i received right after the purchase. I do not buy the deal about the funds not being available, you are still running adds on kingsnake and still taking orders. the only reason anyone would think that you do not have the animals is the add in the wanted section looking for more dealers and breeders. The other people who went public at least either got their animals or a refund. so is that what i have to do is go talk trash about you somewhere before i get any of this resolved? WE PAID YOU IN THE FIRST WEEK IN DECEMBER, WE DON'T HAVE ANY SNAKES YET, WE WANT OUR MONEY BACK!!!!! I never stated that i wanted you to ship 24 hrs a day all week, but you should not have let it get this backed up in the first place. You are selling so many morphs and hets, i don't believe you cannot refund me my measly $599 that you have had for half a year. Are you doing nothing with us because we are just being quiet and patiently waiting? I honestly do not know what to say at this point. I for-see many court hearings in your near future.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Top Shelf Exotics"
To: "'Ryan Cocchiara'"
Subject: RE: Update
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:37:04 -0400

I just had to write a similar message so I will include it below for your review which covers your previous message.



We are not involving ourselves in the mudslinging forums currently as we have better things to do. Shipping orders is one of them. You are obviously unaware of how many orders we are dealing with, but I would have thought from the folks reporting they are receiving their packages that your assumption that we do not have what you purchased is furthest from fact. I apologize that you have come to some ill assumptions but this is not the case. We have what you have ordered and have had your order put on hold from the date of purchase. You may take steps to recover your funds if you wish but we are not authorized to issue refunds on animals that have been purchased and pending shipment nor does the money exist at this point to issue such a refund. I am not sure how to bleed a rock dry but if it is possible we will assist you if necessary. I can ask Chris about it but I am uncertain how swift his reply would be at this point. We were forced to refund quite a few orders due to the nonsense created in recent days and the funds are simply not at our disposal at the moment. After forking over the money required to house and feed months worth of animals that had already sold you can only imagine the deficit it created, not to mention the parties who claimed to have not been alerted of delays that were indeed alerted who cried wolf in a matter of words once such assumptions began to suffice. It is not surprising to us at all as we have all heard of the nonsense that occurs on these forums and have never participated for that very reason. We will continue ignoring this nonsense and ship our orders as promptly as possible without interruption. Those who wish to involve themselves in such trivial mudslinging bouts may do so as the time spent fanning the flames in our case could easily be spent packing up another box, feeding and caring for animals, or responding to another email. I only wish you could understand what is involved as it is very apparent that you think a week of restricted shipping should alleviate our woes. Sorry, I wish it were that easy but we are working very hard despite what assumptions ill informed people may have. Animals have to eat and be cared for, we cannot spend 8-7 every single day doing nothing but shipping as our animals would surely perish. Not to mention the boatloads of calls and emails coming in asking the same questions and demands time and time again which if left ignored will create even MORE of a mess. It is quite a situation to juggle as someone is always sure to be upset with us…



I do see your order coming up shortly, hopefully as long as FedEx keeps sending the extra truck here and there we shall be in the clear in the next week or two. We’ll be happy to see this all end and many people eat some well deserved crow J



Have a good day



gs





Sales Department


Email: [email protected]



Winter shipments may experience delays due to weather conditions to ensure safety,

we ask that customers read and understand our terms of sale before placing an order.

http://topshelfexotic.com/terms.htm

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From: Ryan Cocchiara [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 12:02 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Update



OK, we are wanting a full refund, You can send the funds to our pay pal account. Or we can just dispute the original pay pal we sent you, go through our credit card company and alert the Internet FBI fraud site. If you stated in your terms that we would be waiting over 5 months for our animals we would have gone elsewhere. The communication is terrible and we want our money back. If we do not hear back from you today we will just do it ourselves. And add our story to all the others who are complaining about you guys on the many forums here on the Internet. but it would just be easier if you refunded our money.

thanks
Ryan Cocchiara
Silver State Exotics

----- Original Message -----
From: "Top Shelf Exotics"
To: "'Ryan Cocchiara'"
Subject: RE: Update
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 00:21:18 -0400

Excuse the delay, we’ve been running around like chickens with our heads cut off trying to get caught up! It is safe to say we’re very glad winter has passed, it had to be the most unforgiving season we have experienced. In seasons past we were at least given a day to ship per week on average, this season however left us high and dry for way too long.



We resumed shipping about ten days ago, shipping all orders in the order in which they are received of course. The first few days I guess we “ticked off” the people further down fedex’s pickup route and they asked we try to leave room for other customers on their trucks. They were a bit surprised, we went from not shipping anything due to the cold weather here in NY to packing forty boxes or so three days straight. We’re shipping about a dozen or two parcels on each business day and we’re thankfully nearly complete shipping pending orders.



I am writing you from home, I got your message while writing some other replies to today’s correspondence and figured due to the tone of your email you would have appreciated a swift reply rather than a reply after the holiday. When I return I’ll take a look at the stack when I return Tuesday if you wish to see exactly where you stand in order. We have not forgotten you and will definitely contact you prior to shipment. We never ship blind. I am guessing at this rate you should receive a processing notification (which requires a response) within the next ten to twelve days at the very most. Be sure to reply with any requested info when you receive this notice, its important.



Thank you so very much for your patience! It is greatly appreciated.



Patrick



Sales Department


Email: [email protected]



Winter shipments may experience delays due to weather conditions to ensure safety,

we ask that customers read and understand our terms of sale before placing an order.

http://topshelfexotic.com/terms.htm


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From: Ryan Cocchiara [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 12:05 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Update



What is your shipping looking like, we have emailed you with no response. To be honest we haven't had this much of a problem with any other breeder before. we would like a refund, we are aware of your terms of sale but this is ridiculous. We are ready to go to the Better Business Burau, paypal, our credit card company, the FBI Internet fraud site, and our local police department, maybe yours. this has gone on long enough. We will not wait six months for our snakes from you or anyone else. You have very poor business practices, and should not be in the reptile industry. If you do not respond to this email we will take the actions stated above.

thanks
Ryan Cocchiara
Silver State Exotics

----- Original Message -----
From: "Top Shelf Exotics"
To: "'Ryan Cocchiara'"
Subject: Update
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 01:20:38 -0500

-AUTOMATED-



We know it is not much of an update but we thought we would touch base to let you know you guys have not been forgotten. We are still experiencing overnight lows between 17-25 on average and we are still awaiting improvement. All those awaiting shipments will be contacted in order determined by date of purchase to arrange shipment as weather permits. We thank you for your patronage as well as your patience.



Have a safe and pleasant day!



TSE Sales Staff





Sales Department


Email: [email protected]



Winter shipments may experience delays due to weather conditions to ensure safety,

we ask that customers read and understand our terms of sale before placing an order.

http://topshelfexotic.com/terms.htm

 

[shep151]

I keep getting an image of Diane Sawyer or some other talking head interviewing a few of us in the next few years... Kinda makes me sick.
It really looks like this scam was done "well enough" and big enough to be newsworthy, once the cards have all been played out. I shudder to think what this *wonderful* publicity will do to the community.

It's day 18 on TSE "het Pied x het Pied".

 

[shep151]

Correction: "Alleged" scam.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

the above post

is an example of why this guy should be locked up! Its a terrible thing to have a runaround like the one I just read, and I am certain that other people experienced the same nonsense from people who have the nerve to call themselves business people. Very disturbing email, to say the least. Thanks for sharing it with us, but this is a very good lesson, when it comes to giving money in advance. Never do it through paypal. If you can avoid it.

If the supplier insists on you using paypal, cancel the sale! If he wants the business bad enough, he will find alternative methods for getting his money and satisfying your protection from these types of situations. If he does not, then move on.

 

[jglass38]

Day 18 of incubation? How many eggs again? Sorry this thread is brutally long

 

[shrap]

.....Never do it through paypal. If you can avoid it.

If the supplier insists on you using paypal, cancel the sale! If he wants the business bad enough, he will find alternative methods for getting his money and satisfying your protection from these types of situations. If he does not, then move on.

I have to completely disagree with you on this one Jerry. You are almost painting all PayPal users as scammers that should be avoided. That aint right. I only accept CC through PayPal... am I a scammer Jerry? Should people avoid doing biz with me because of it Jerry?

Granted PayPal does not give you as good of protection as your CC company, there is no arguing that. But to paint as broad a stroke as you just did is not fair to endless honest business people out there.

 

[nicolai]

I think he said it was 7 eggs.

 

[shep151]

Granted PayPal does not give you as good of protection as your CC company, there is no arguing that. But to paint as broad a stroke as you just did is not fair to endless honest business people out there.

I agree, Shrap. For many honest breeders (including myself) PayPal is the method of choice because it is an affordable method of accepting credit cards.

7 eggs is correct, and the probability of them NOT proving out if they are actually het Pied is about 13%, as someone correctly pointed out earlier.

 

[SERPENTS DEN]

Ch Balls

I sold these 2 CH male Ball Pythons pictured below to Chris on July 28, 2005 Chris told me it was to fill one of his orders. I just hope everyone who purchased hets from Chris that they do prove out.

 

[NorthamExotics]

After this debacle...

... who will be able to sell hets outside of a very select few? I think this situation will damage the entire Ball python simple recessive morph portion of the hobby/'market'.

-Jason Northam

 

[Junkyard]

I would tend to think this will only hurt Chris and not the industry. There are far, far, far more honest sellers then crooked ones. Do not let Chris' actions add fear to others who are NOT buying from him but someone else. I know of many here who I would trust that there hets would prove out.

I was thinking, a few years ago when Chris was a good guy before this mess, I would not doubt his hets. He had nothing to hide then and no one to hide behind. The het animals he is selling now, those I would think twice about.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

Sammy, when I suggest that you avoid using

paypal wherever you can, it is because you waive your rights that you have with the credit card company. It has nothing to do with scam. Its a business decision that should not be taken lightly. In my business I also offer paypal, but my sales are generally $ 30 to $ 50 dollars. A very limited liability. But when you pay through paypal, several hundred or thousand dollars, thats an entirely different story.

If you use paypal, and do not receive anything within 45 days. You have lost the money. If you use paypal, and the recipient is not a verified customer,and has the monies mailed to him, you will loose the money, if you use paypal and the recipient is a verified customer, and takes it out of his bank account, you loose your money. TSE is a perfect example.

When dealing with large amounts of money, the object in any business transaction is to limit the liability as much as you can. If you are sure you are dealing with a very well recognized person or operation, then proceed with caution even under those circumstances.

Buy "sight seen" wherever possible. Keep your purchases as close to home as you can in case you want to see what you are buying. Try to deal directly with people that already have had experience with these people before you buy and pay in advance. Their are many options available to protect your interest. Paypal can be useful, and it has its advantages, but I can tell you from first hand experience, I would be extremely reluctant to use that service without some kind of recourse or protection on my part.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Does anyone recognize the two CH ball pythons in the picture? Why in the world a person breeding heterozygous for expensive morphs buy two normal, nice looking CH male ball pythons? Two fill an order? What kind of an order? This smells more and more like CMG's and CRE's business deals.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

One other point which I am sure you must realize by now. Paypal can produce the worst of the worst, even if its for a limited period of time, it affords the opportunist the abililty to capture a sale without providing any goods. They can easily close shop, change their name, address, email, etc. and start anew! That is why I say be careful. Once they have your money, paypal has no obligation in making sure you have your merchandise. They can only investigate, and to protect their own interest, they first make sure that YOU cannot use your credit card company for redress. By waiving that ability, you are in my estimation giving up a valuable tool. As you can see, now some people are finding out the hard way that they signed away their privledge, and lost their money. Not a pleasant picture. PS I know your not a scam artist, but get a haircut if that is a picture of you!!!! Only kidding.

 

[SERPENTS DEN]

I I brought up another old thread regarding Kenny Gall; it’s all too familiar.

 

[jglass38]

One other point which I am sure you must realize by now. Paypal can produce the worst of the worst, even if its for a limited period of time, it affords the opportunist the abililty to capture a sale without providing any goods. They can easily close shop, change their name, address, email, etc. and start anew! That is why I say be careful. Once they have your money, paypal has no obligation in making sure you have your merchandise. They can only investigate, and to protect their own interest, they first make sure that YOU cannot use your credit card company for redress. By waiving that ability, you are in my estimation giving up a valuable tool. As you can see, now some people are finding out the hard way that they signed away their privledge, and lost their money. Not a pleasant picture. PS I know your not a scam artist, but get a haircut if that is a picture of you!!!! Only kidding.

The problem here is nobody had any clue that this was going to happen. Other than paying an extra $20 for a bank wire (also no protection), Chris offered no other payment options. I couldn't care less what people use to pay me. If they want to send me rolls of quarters in the mail, that is fine. Money Orders are great, checks are fine (no shipment until they clear of course). I use Paypal but only because I am not selling enough animals yet to justify a merchant account. I despise them personally...