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Top Shelf Exotics (Inquiry)

Chrisine,
Post 1685 has information on contacting M Brown of the NY State Police. He's collecting names for his investigation.

Kevin
 
Thank you

I have taken down Officer Brown's information and am currently sending him/her an email along with my contact information. I am pretty sure that at this point I am screwed and out a lot of money and/or a pair of snakes that were probably normals anyway. More or less I am pissed about losing the money. But if it gets him put away (and his workers) so that this cannot happen to another person I will be satisfied. Not completely, but enough.

Again thank you all for your help. I'll let you know what he/she says.
 
I did receive the depostion form from Det. Brown yesterday, and will be getting it done in short order, notarized, and sent back. I want to remind all of you to that have given him your info to do the same, and anyone who has not contacted him as of yet to do so! The more of us, the better.... ;)
 
One thing that bothers me

How was this able to happen. There are dozens of people that have fallen victim to this. If this all started early this year why did it take so long for someone to complain. Was his rep on fauna that good?

Buying hets is risky, from what I was taught you need to be able to trust the seller. In what ways was he gaining trust?

If he was able to figure out how to scam this many people and gain the trust of so many then another will also.
 
Bert, this particular round of sales started yet last year....many purchased in November or so, but were told they had to wait til shipping was warmer. I know there were some complaints that go back before that, but mostly from "newbies" who either didn't know any better, or folks that were too intimidated by his reputation to speak out when it happened.

I've asked myself the same questions, how this happened millions of times. I think a lot of it was his "larger than life" presence on the forums, and his very verbal blasting of scammers (and perhaps a few others who got in the way).....I just don't know. But now that a criminal case has begun, perhaps when we see his face behind bars, it will deter any such future scammers when they see he didn't get away with it for long.

Regardless, I am going to be EXTREMELY selective who I buy hets from in the future.....
 
Cathy, you have hit the nail on the head

"Regardless, I am going to be EXTREMELY selective who I buy hets from in the future....."__________________

I think the best avenue would be to deal with people that have proven that their stock was true, rather than concentrate on the price. That is where the hook lies. Thats why people got taken.

A reliable breeder would be proud to provide satisfied customers who have bred and produced whatever their intended morph should be. Their are certain criterias that the snake industry should as well as other sub cultures that sells by morph be obligated in providing. There has to be some standard that can be applied to everyone rather than whatever the individual dealer provides. Thats how a TSE gets created, when the doors are wide open for a flood of non controlled systems pervades this industry and creates the Chris Johnsons of the world to be attracted to the herp industry.
 
Jerry,
I disagree with this.

I think the best avenue would be to deal with people that have proven that their stock was true, rather than concentrate on the price. That is where the hook lies. Thats why people got taken.
Click to expand...

I could've gotten a better deal on the hets I bought but chose to go with TSE based on their/his reputation. There were plenty of "can't go wrong with TSE" and "nothing to worry about" posts about TSE on the BOI. Now my deal went down last year and I got the animals I paid for but they are hets and who knows how that will turn out. If I did indeed get "taken" it wasn't because I was concentrating on price, It's because a "reputable" seller ripped me off.
 
CHRIS, i understand, and my statement was

a general one. Even with TSE's reputation, an argument can be made to show that no one in the industry whom Chris had sold to, ever turned out hets that were true to the sale. Had someone asked for some addtional satisfied customers who produced what they paid for, his scam could have been seen sooner. Its really hypothetical, and I guess he was in a very good position at that point in time to pull this off for as long as he did. Eventually as we saw, his walls came tumbling down.

Maybe some good will come out of this. I am very glad that some of the credit card companies have provided a refund against Paypal. Apparently its on an individual basis, but at least you know that it can be done.
 
What I really don't understand, and what makes me hopefull that my hets will turn out to be hets, is why he ended it all now. If they are indeed all fakes, he could have gotten away with it for another year. There is only 1 batch of eggs cooking now that I know of and with him being as well known and as reputable as he was, he could have kept this going another year. It would be easy to explain a litter of normal babies as nothing more than bad luck(if they all indeed hatch out normal which I certainly hope they don't). If he was sending normals out as hets, he could have done so again this year and all the people, including our thread starter Bob, wouldn't have had a complaint(well Bob still would have due to the condition of the animals) but again, that would have been explainable and certainly fixable. Perhaps it's just wishfull/hopefull thinking, but I'm about 10% optimistic that something did indeed come up in the last 6 months or so and steered this otherwise "good guy" in the wrong direction. So right now I've got my fingers crossed that Zachary gets some white babies soon. -Chris
 
Like Chris

I purchase from what I thought was a reputible breeder and just thought that I was getting a killer deal on a pair of hets. But I found out way to late that this was not the case. Not even close. So now I am up $--t creek without a paddle.
I even found out that TSE does not breed their own hets or balls at all. It was huge discussion on KS. Some one else bred the snakes for Chris/TSE and then TSE bought the snakes at wholesale and then sold them off or TSE imported them from Africa then sold those babies off. I am really wondering at this point if the "hets" are true hets or just import normals. :uzi:
At this point I am only buying snakes from large breeders that I know personally like Jay at P.P. or a VERY well known breeder that has a lot of referrals.
 
TailsWithScales said:
I purchase from what I thought was a reputible breeder and just thought that I was getting a killer deal on a pair of hets. But I found out way to late that this was not the case. Not even close. So now I am up $--t creek without a paddle.
I even found out that TSE does not breed their own hets or balls at all. It was huge discussion on KS. Some one else bred the snakes for Chris/TSE and then TSE bought the snakes at wholesale and then sold them off or TSE imported them from Africa then sold those babies off. I am really wondering at this point if the "hets" are true hets or just import normals. :uzi:
At this point I am only buying snakes from large breeders that I know personally like Jay at P.P. or a VERY well known breeder that has a lot of referrals.
Click to expand...

The question of TSE breeding their own or purchasing them has been discussed many times here as well, but are you saying you have first hand knowledge or proof that he did NOT produce them?

If that is the case, proof of this needs to be posted here, as it seems it would be a lie that Chris himself put in black and white, that he "produced the hets at his facility".
 
And there in lies the rub - like the others said - I didn't buy from Chris because he was "cheaper" he was maybe $100 less than the average price of the competition but thats not by any means outrageous - I bought from Chris because I asked around and checked the BOI and everyone I spoke to about him said that he had an excellent reputation and that he had sold them big fat healthy fabulously eating animals.


I asked about pictures of the parents and was told something to the effect that because of the way they use multiple males breeding the females they couldn't be sure which where the parents, blah blah blah....


Oh well - I guess I'll write it off as a bad investment. But I do hope that some of the hets turn out to be true.

Best of luck to everyone!



Tosha McClintock
 
Can't provide

Proof of anything. If I relayed something incorrectly I apologize but I didn't say that I know first hand or had proof that Chris did(n't) breed the animals himself.
What I did say was that it was talked about on kingsnake.com's ball python forum about his not breeding his own hets. I also am not able to put that information onto here as KS deleted it within a day of the original post. A gentlman had posted that he had "seen" Chris's facility and there were no adult breeders there and he didn't state that the animals were at his house or another location. The gentlman also made excellent point in that on TSE's website there are NO adult snakes pictured no have there ever been.
Again I apologize if I relayed something incorrectly but I can't really help but wonder if the "stories" were true. That I know of no one has come forward stating that they have ever physically seen adult breeders at his facillity, at another location, or posted on TSE's website.
 
TailsWithScales said:
Proof of anything. If I relayed something incorrectly I apologize but I didn't say that I know first hand or had proof that Chris did(n't) breed the animals himself.
What I did say was that it was talked about on kingsnake.com's ball python forum about his not breeding his own hets. I also am not able to put that information onto here as KS deleted it within a day of the original post. A gentlman had posted that he had "seen" Chris's facility and there were no adult breeders there and he didn't state that the animals were at his house or another location. The gentlman also made excellent point in that on TSE's website there are NO adult snakes pictured no have there ever been.
Again I apologize if I relayed something incorrectly but I can't really help but wonder if the "stories" were true. That I know of no one has come forward stating that they have ever physically seen adult breeders at his facillity, at another location, or posted on TSE's website.
Click to expand...

I understand what you're saying, Christine. But when you said you, "found out that he doesn't produce his own hets", that would lend one to believe that you knew this information for a fact. Not that the same discussion of that probability hasn't taken place here as well, but even though that great big seed of doubt is there, I think we need to be careful what we state as a fact, especially with the pending legal action. IF it is true, I would LOVE to see the proof, as it would in the long run only help those of us who have purchased "hets" if they end up not being what they were said to be.

I must say, I find it interesting that someone claimed to have seen Chris's "facility", we've been looking for someone, ANYONE who has seen it, and no one here has ever come forward. It would be awful interesting to find that person, especially with the question of if there really IS a "facility" to be seen having been raised.
 
The question of TSE breeding their own or purchasing them has been discussed many times here as well, but are you saying you have first hand knowledge or proof that he did NOT produce them?

If that is the case, proof of this needs to be posted here, as it seems it would be a lie that Chris himself put in black and white, that he "produced the hets at his facility".
Click to expand...

And for the sake of the person that felt it necessary to give me "bad karma" for asking for proof........I simply asked for that proof to further our case against Chris. I thought my post made that point clear, with my statement that it would prove that Chris put the lie himself about producing them in black and white. You know, something else to nail Chris with. Something that would benefit the case. I never said that the "BOI requires proof".

Sheesh, excuse me for being excited that we may have had another nail in Chris's coffin. :rolleyes:
 
I have been reading random posts on this all morning...I am shocked! He has so many good ratings and seemed to be all on the up and up
 
Who knew?

connorrm said:
I have been reading random posts on this all morning...I am shocked! He has so many good ratings and seemed to be all on the up and up
Click to expand...

Therein lies the rub. This is what drew so many to TSE including myself. I thought I was doing a good job of checking Chris out prior to purchase. When I made my purchase from him his trader rating was something like 64:1 positive. Look back at the beginning of this thread and you will see a lot of posts reassuring me that I had nothing to worry about, and that Chris would come through as promised. So my being deceived by Chris put me in very good company. The lingering effect of Chris's dishonesty is that, no one is going to want to take the chance in the future, and trust the small or fledgling breeder when it comes to hets. If I was one of the top five Ball Breeders I would raise my prices for 100% hets and sit back and wait for the influx of buyers. This is why Chris's should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law from all sides.
 
Chris looked to be the type to buy from. But you must be real carefull when dealing in Hets. That is why I choose not to have any. I don't want to buy them, then later after they are sold have my reputation scared for selling them. Also, the new way they are being sold, makes one wonder. 50% and 66%, IMO, that is nothing more than a normal. There is no proof of them being more than just that. I will shy away from the Het market, just as I have always done. I am not saying there are not lidget sellers of them, I am saying I would rather have the morph.

Chris's reputation was great, he had many sales, but most of the reputation was given on unproven hets. If they are just normals, then it would take time to prove this. IMO, Chris knew this then.
 
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